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Does "Bush bashing" bother you?

 
 
joefromchicago
 
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Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 12:41 pm
Scrat wrote:
Okay, I've read your comments now. First, you clearly have a better knowledge of legal issues than I. That said, I'll concede that I can't reasonably argue that Scalia never gets it wrong. Of course, that also precludes the notion that Rhenquist never gets it wrong as well...

Fair enough.

Scrat wrote:
(Of course, I'd like to think that no justice would deviate from original intent by design.)

As I mentioned before, it is impossible for a jurist to adhere to a consistent jurisprudence of original intent. A judge, then, wouldn't deviate from original intent "by design" because it's not necessary: the inevitability of deviation is inherent in the design.
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Scrat
 
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Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:58 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
As I mentioned before, it is impossible for a jurist to adhere to a consistent jurisprudence of original intent.

Why? (I'm not trying to be obstinate here. I just don't see the basis for this claim of yours.)
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joefromchicago
 
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Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 09:19 pm
Scrat wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
As I mentioned before, it is impossible for a jurist to adhere to a consistent jurisprudence of original intent.

Why? (I'm not trying to be obstinate here. I just don't see the basis for this claim of yours.)

Apart from the inherent difficulty in actually ascertaining intent (e.g., there are a lot of people who, over the course of the ratification process, vote on an amendment -- whose intent controls?), there are judicial rules that inevitably conflict with any kind of original intent analysis. The most important of which is stare decisis, which requires courts to follow relevant precedents.

Taking the Gore v. Bush example: an original intent analysis would clearly show that the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment had no intent to make states adopt a "one man, one vote" rule. Yet the supreme court's "one man, one vote" decisions such as Reynolds v. Sims and Baker v. Carr rested on an equal protection analysis of the Fourteenth Amendment. Thus, in Gore v. Bush, an "original intent" justice like Scalia faced a choice: go with original intent and repudiate over 60 years of supreme court jurisprudence, or stick with stare decisis and ignore the obvious original intent of the drafters.

Well, as it turned out, the majority did neither: it just thoroughly botched the decision. But clearly there is an irresolvable tension between original intent and stare decisis, as well as with well-established judicial rules of statutory construction (I won't bother you with all of them). A judge simply cannot ignore those rules and go solely with original intent: it would not only be practically impossible, it would be judicially improper.
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Scrat
 
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Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 10:54 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
But clearly there is an irresolvable tension between original intent and stare decisis...

With due respect to your knowledge in this area, this is where I disagree. I would argue that any time a precedent is found in contradiction to original intent it indicates the previous court decided wrongly, and the current court has an obligation to rectify the error by overturning the precedent and reinstating the original intent. For a justice to simply adhere to a bad precedent because it is a precedent is to me for that justice to shirk his or her obligation to the constitution, the oath he or she took to uphold same, and the people of the US.
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2004 08:08 am
joefromchicago wrote:
Scrat wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
As I mentioned before, it is impossible for a jurist to adhere to a consistent jurisprudence of original intent.

Why? (I'm not trying to be obstinate here. I just don't see the basis for this claim of yours.)

Apart from the inherent difficulty in actually ascertaining intent (e.g., there are a lot of people who, over the course of the ratification process, vote on an amendment -- whose intent controls?)....




Thank you for that comment, Joe.

I had a discussion with Scrat on something similar with regard to Security Council resolution 1441.

Many of the signators to that resolution had considerable reservations about how to proceed if total compliance was not established.

The United States decided that THEY would be the final arbitors of what the intent was for everyone.

"Intent" is not only difficult to establish -- often it is impossible to do so.
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nimh
 
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Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2004 12:46 pm
Scrat wrote:
With due respect to your knowledge in this area, this is where I disagree. I would argue that any time a precedent is found in contradiction to original intent it indicates the previous court decided wrongly, and the current court has an obligation to rectify the error by overturning the precedent and reinstating the original intent.


That would mean, if I understand Joe correctly, doing away with the "one man, one vote" principle, for example ...
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Scrat
 
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Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2004 12:53 pm
I don't think it means doing away with "one man, one vote" but rather recognizes that the Constitution makes no such guarantee.
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joefromchicago
 
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Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2004 02:25 pm
nimh wrote:
That would mean, if I understand Joe correctly, doing away with the "one man, one vote" principle, for example ...

Among other things. For instance, if we interpret the Eighth Amendment's prohibition of "cruel and unusual punishments" in light of the criminal laws of 1787, it would be constitutionally permissible to impose the death sentence for theft, rape, arson, and a variety of other crimes. I think most people would be rather uneasy about being constitutionally bound to this kind of eighteenth-century morality.

Ironically, many people who argue in favor of an "original intent" position are singularly unwilling to apply it to the Second Amendment's "right to bear arms." After all, when the drafters of the amendment were thinking about "arms," they had in mind flintlock muskets. I doubt that many of the NRA'ers would be satisfied within the limits of eighteenth-century technology as their constitutional maximum.
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joefromchicago
 
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Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2004 02:30 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
"Intent" is not only difficult to establish -- often it is impossible to do so.

I think "impossible" is nearer the truth.

For instance, the 27th Amendment was proposed by Congress in 1789. It was only ratified in 1992 -- after a passage of 203 years! Now, whose intent should we consult when we interpret that amendment? The guys who wrote it, or the guys two centuries later who ratified it?
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Scrat
 
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Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2004 02:37 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
nimh wrote:
That would mean, if I understand Joe correctly, doing away with the "one man, one vote" principle, for example ...

Among other things. For instance, if we interpret the Eighth Amendment's prohibition of "cruel and unusual punishments" in light of the criminal laws of 1787, it would be constitutionally permissible to impose the death sentence for theft, rape, arson, and a variety of other crimes. I think most people would be rather uneasy about being constitutionally bound to this kind of eighteenth-century morality.

Why? The fact that we are free to do something does not obligate us to do it. We are not "bound" at all by simply retaining eighteenth-century liberties.
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joefromchicago
 
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Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2004 02:46 pm
Scrat wrote:
Why? The fact that we are free to do something does not obligate us to do it. We are not "bound" at all by simply retaining eighteenth-century liberties.

Indeed. Nor is a child "obligated" to pick up a loaded gun that is left within its reach. Still, all other things being equal, you'd prefer it if the gun wasn't there.
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 09:32 am
If George W. Bush was a girl
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Setanta
 
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Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 09:45 am
Joe, i'd have to say that in choosing the XXVIIth Amendment:

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of representatives shall have intervened.

--you have chosen a poor example. I'd ridicule anyone who attempted to contend that such language meant anything in 1789 other than what it means today.
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joefromchicago
 
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Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 02:05 pm
Setanta wrote:
--you have chosen a poor example. I'd ridicule anyone who attempted to contend that such language meant anything in 1789 other than what it means today.

Would that be because the meaning of the amendment is plain on its face?
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Setanta
 
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Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 03:51 pm
Yes, Joe--which is, saddly, not something which can be shown to those who object to the other meanings in the constitution which could be argued to be "plain on [their] face." I am always amused by, for example, the gun lobby adherents' insistence that the first clause of the second amendment is meaningless.
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nimh
 
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Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 07:17 pm
Funny or not funny?

I must admit I hadnt expected Bush to mock himself and his admin's single-minded obsession with the matter as light-moodedly as this ... think it's (gasp) rather sympathetic. But apparently, lots of others were not amused ...
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IronLionZion
 
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Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 07:25 pm
nimh wrote:

I must admit I hadnt expected Bush to mock himself and his admin's single-minded obsession with the matter as light-moodedly as this ... think it's (gasp) rather sympathetic. But apparently, lots of others were not amused ...


Indeed, you never know what his handlers are going to do next.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 07:29 pm
I think its pretty tasteless, but what the heck, none of them have had to die for his little folly.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 01:29 pm
Congratulations, Setanta, you've learned the first rule of statutory construction! Before looking at the drafters' intent, one must first look at the plain language of the statute (or, in this case, constitutional amendment).

On the other hand, you might be too optimistic about the 27th amendment. After all, what is "compensation"? Do pensions constitute "compensation"? What about health benefits? Travel allowances? Office budgets?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 08:46 pm
That's precisely why, Joe, i consider the "original intent" brouhaha to be a shell game. The "framers" were sufficiently well-versed in jurisprudence to understand that the flexibility of the document would be founded upon the extent to which the language is subject to interpretation in a juridical sense. As for the 27th amendment, I'm not necessarily optimistic at all--it is and remains a dead letter until such time as a citizen or interest group decides to challenge congressional benefits packages on its basis. But the obvious way for Congress to sidestep XXVII is simply to vote a raise immediately after an election, in the sure and certain knowledge that the electorates collective memory doesn't extend much past a week ago last Tuesday with the exception of a handful of issues they have been lead to believe are critical.

I referred to the first clause of the second amendment--A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state--precisely because is appears to be referential to Article I, Section 8, (and i believe this is the fourteenth paragraph) Congress shall have the power to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress. It also seems that the Supremes consider it referential to that paragraph as well, as i have read that in the late 1930's they turned down an appeal of a firearms conviction on the grounds that they had no knowledge that Congress had designated shotguns as the weapon with which the militia are to be armed. I can't be arsed to go look up the opinion, but i note the caution with which the gun lobby avoids bringing Congressional arms control legislation before federal benches.
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