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Does "Bush bashing" bother you?

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 09:59 am
Scrat wrote:
If I were, I would just let Acquiunk know whether I thought his (?) opinion had or lacked merit. Since I am not, I asked to ascertain what I might learn, both about Scalia's record AND about whether Acquiunk knew of facts to support his (?) statement.

A reasonable request, to be sure, but it tends to lose its quality as fair inquiry when framed in the manner of a challenge ("Can you cite for me a written decision of Scalia's that is not based on a strict interpretation of original intent?").

Scrat wrote:
I appreciate your citation, and after reading the high points, conclude that it in no way shows Scalia ignoring or going against original intent. For one thing, both justices clearly agree that the letter of the Constitution itself does not instruct us sufficiently on the issue of what it means to be able to confront one's accusers, and so both justices are looking to historical legal precedent to discern how to handle this specific question. That they reach different conclusions does not mean that either has chosen to cast intent aside.

Well, I'm not quite sure why that matters. After all, if a justice disregards original intent or if he embraces it but gets it totally wrong, the result is still the same.

Scrat wrote:
Acquiunk claimed that Scalia ignores the very question of original intent when it suits him.

Rather than poring over the corpus of Scalia's legal writings, I can only say that it is impossible for someone to have a consistent jurisprudence of original intent. To that extent, Acquiunk is correct: Scalia must ignore original intent, at least sometimes, because Scalia cannot consistently adhere to original intent.

The Gore v. Bush case is a good example (although it is not a Scalia opinion, it is a per curiam opinion that Scalia joined). The majority relied, in large part, upon the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth amendments. Yet it is quite clear that the framers of those amendments had no intention to apply either the concepts of "due process" or "equal protection" to the "right" to have one's vote counted equally. After all, the "one-man, one-vote" cases of the Warren court, such as Reynolds v. Sims (cited in the opinion), invalidated state election laws that dated back to the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment. If the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment thought that the amendment's equal protection clause mandated a "one-man, one-vote" rule in the states, they would have been invalidating practically every state election law then in existence -- and, from the historical record, we know that's clearly not the case.

The court's reliance on the due process and equal protection clauses was, I believe, spurious. Furthermore, from an original intent perspective, it was manifestly unjustified. That Scalia endorsed this view indicates that, at least on occasion, he is willing to discard an original intent jurisprudence when it suits him.

EDIT: corrected a typo.
0 Replies
 
Camille
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 10:07 am
Setanta wrote:
EB, i've been convinced for a long time that Shirley there comes to these threads in the hope of stirring up someone's anger. This if a form of entertainment for the squirrelly little thing (note to moderators: yes, squirrelly, look at the avatar). Shirley has developed a style of skirting the edge of violating the TOS, in the hope of sparking an intemperate response. As it rarely has anything of substance to contribute, and is mostly playing that childish little game, it is good to keep this all in mind, and simply be amused by it's foolish antics.

Hope you'll have a good day there in Tejas, EB.


Or in four words- Don't feed the trolls Very Happy
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 10:30 am
I quit feeding trolls whenever I identify one on A2K. Unlike edgar, I don't find trolls to be fun or funny - just a bit like a knat. Shooo!
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 10:39 am
What ever problems there may be with Scrat's style, his challenge made me think more deeply about my statements and dig a little to back them up. The rummaging was enhanced and extended by Joefromchicago. So I for one learned something, which is one of the purposes of A2K. Debate is not a love feist, it can, and often does, get rambunctious.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 10:46 am
Bush pushed through his drug benefit for seniors by telling congress the cost for this benefit would be $400 billion - but that was a lie! The actuary knew that the cost would be closer to $534 billion, but was instructed not to share that info with congress. The drug benefit barely passed congress - with the lie. If others in congress had known the 'true' cost, they said they would not have voted for this benefit. What other "lies" have come out of this administration? Can they be trusted? That's the important question for congress and the American People.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 10:49 am
Acquiunk wrote:
What ever problems there may be with Scrat's style, his challenge made me think more deeply about my statements and dig a little to back them up. The rummaging was enhanced and extended by Joefromchicago. So I for one learned something, which is one of the purposes of A2K. Debate is not a love feist, it can, and often does, get rambunctious.


That is why we are here, right?

I agree completely with Acquiunk. Do you have any idea how much effort is involved in shooting down some of the leftist ideas here?

For example...I think Joefromchicago is a lawyer and I expect a certain level of discourse from him. I am pretty sure Setanta knows his history pretty well. Walter appears to be German. We each have certain areas of expertise and it takes a lot of effort to keep up.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 10:58 am
Ack, I have disagreements on topics with many people including McG, but I'm able to engage in discourse with him, because he's a gentleman. I have never seen McG attack the poster in any way; he always keeps engaged on the topic, and not on the poster. I'll engage conversation with McG on any topic that interests me, because I know it'll be intellectual rather than ad hominems. Nuf said. c.i.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 11:00 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Ack, I have disagreements on topics with many people including McG, but I'm able to engage in discourse with him, because he's a gentleman. I have never seen McG attack the poster in any way; he always keeps engaged on the topic, and not on the poster. I'll engage conversation with McG on any topic that interests me, because I know it'll be intellectual rather than ad hominems. Nuf said. c.i.


Embarrassed
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 11:24 am
Oh god, this is gonna cost me . . .

McG and i have sniped at each other, but i also respect him. He does from time to time indulge in what i consider unnecessarily negative characterizations of those whom he deems liberals. It is not as though, however, i have a love fest with the conservatives.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 11:26 am
Acquiunk wrote:
What ever problems there may be with Scrat's style, his challenge made me think more deeply about my statements and dig a little to back them up. The rummaging was enhanced and extended by Joefromchicago. So I for one learned something, which is one of the purposes of A2K. Debate is not a love feist, it can, and often does, get rambunctious.

Acquiunk - At the risk of being accused of "brown nosing" you, I can say that the feeling is mutual. You're one of the people here with whom I've found it's possible to disagree without rankor. That's always my goal, whether I fall down along the way at times or get dragged there on others. Joe's also pretty good on that account, if perhaps a bit more prone to sarcasm (as I tend to be). :wink:
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:18 pm
You realize of course that this little love fest doesn't mean we'll be holding hands and gazing into each others eyes, right?

:wink: Laughing
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:22 pm
well, I continue to be dyslexic but not yet myopic.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:40 pm
All this agreement is making me feel dyspeptic.

(Anybody wanna fight?) :wink:
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suzy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:41 pm
Your mother wears army boots!
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:43 pm
And I liked you better when you were backseat suzy... :wink:
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 02:54 pm
Ok enough of this niceness. Here's a bit of Bush Bashing a saw over on Abuzz and found amusing (if you've seen it before, sorry).


Old Cowboy Wisdom

While suturing a laceration on the hand of a 70-year-old Texas rancher (whose hand had caught in a gate while working cattle), a doctor and the old man were talking about George W. Bush being in the White House.

The old Texan said, "Well, ya know, Bush is a 'post turtle'."

Not knowing what the old man meant, the doctor asked him what a post turtle was.

The old man said, "When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle."

The old man saw a puzzled look on the doctor's face, so he continued to explain, "You know he didn't get there by himself, he doesn't belong there, he can't get anything done while he's up there, and you just want to help the poor stupid bastard get down."
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 02:58 pm
McGentrix wrote:
For example...I think Joefromchicago is a lawyer and I expect a certain level of discourse from him. I am pretty sure Setanta knows his history pretty well. Walter appears to be German.


lol

not to wanna break up the love fest, but thats sure one for the gallery of, whats it called, back-handed compliments ...

poor walter.

walter is also a historian, i believe, by the way. and very insightful on european affairs, imho.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 02:59 pm
nice one, acquiunk ;-)
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 04:00 pm
Interesting avatar, Nimh.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 05:30 pm
You got that Frank? A warning from a wabbit! LOL I think your golf clubs will be sufficient to protect yourself. Wink
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