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Ramadan Rioting in Capital of Europe

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 06:09 am
MarionT wrote:
.......or the millions who were killed during the inquisition...........


Have you some proof, or link, to support your contention?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 06:25 am
If Muslims feel themselves to be a persecuted minority and draw parallels with the European treatment of Jews, why do they go out of their way to draw attention to themselves through violent demonstrations?

How is it that during the farcical 'Danish cartoons' violence, we see pictures of angry Muslims holding placards proclaiming (aparantly without irony) "BEHEAD THOSE WHO SAY ISLAM IS VIOLENT". Of course I dont discount the possibility of government agents provocateurs, but it seems the active force here comes from the Muslims themselves, when you would think a really persecuted and threatened minority would be cowed into passivity. (As the Jews were).
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 06:27 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Well as I've said several times, I dont pretend to know the details about these riots. However it does seem possible, that political activists are exploiting any grievance real or imagined to stir up anti "western" passions amongst Muslims. I hope I'm wrong, but thats how it seems to me.

OMG... It's Foxfyre....
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 06:35 am
DrewDad wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Well as I've said several times, I dont pretend to know the details about these riots. However it does seem possible, that political activists are exploiting any grievance real or imagined to stir up anti "western" passions amongst Muslims. I hope I'm wrong, but thats how it seems to me.

OMG... It's Foxfyre....
Laughing
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 06:35 am
DrewDad wrote:
OMG... It's Foxfyre....


Well, I do hope it only looks only here alike ... :wink:
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 07:33 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
If Muslims feel themselves to be a persecuted minority and draw parallels with the European treatment of Jews, why do they go out of their way to draw attention to themselves through violent demonstrations?

How is it that during the farcical 'Danish cartoons' violence, we see pictures of angry Muslims holding placards proclaiming (aparantly without irony) "BEHEAD THOSE WHO SAY ISLAM IS VIOLENT". Of course I dont discount the possibility of government agents provocateurs, but it seems the active force here comes from the Muslims themselves, when you would think a really persecuted and threatened minority would be cowed into passivity. (As the Jews were).


But how much of the unrest was in Europe?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 07:36 am
About the cartoons or generally?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 07:41 am
About the cartoons. I am aware of previous rioting in Europe, but most of them have appeared to be related to specific community incidents.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 07:42 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
About the cartoons or generally?


So we are not talking about the "Ramadan riots in Europe's capital" anymore?

Quote:
Plus de 220.000 personnes ont participé à la "Nuit Blanche"


That's the latest demo, last weekend, in exactly the same part of Brussels ...

.... besides this one, the same day:

Quote:
Immeuble squatté à deux pas du Palais de justice de Bruxelles


(That was only by some dozens ...)



The Brussel Prosecution Office, bt, is still investigating a possible manslaughter since it doesn't seem to be suicide ...
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 12:28 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
About the cartoons. I am aware of previous rioting in Europe, but most of them have appeared to be related to specific community incidents.
Well Duck, can only say there were demonstrations in London and other British cities, Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels, Copenhagen

not all violent of course, and I support peaceful demonstration

but the demonstrations were organised.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 01:07 pm
So is the problem that they are organized, violent, or both organized and violent? Personally, I'm only concerned if they are violent, even more so if they are organized AND violent. I assumed that you were implying that these violent demonstrations are organized and that's the problem with them.

Most demonstrations are organized.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 06:09 pm
MarionT wrote:
George says since the enlightenment. He dares not talk about the massacres of the Muslims in Jerusalem by the Christian 'crusaders" or the millions who were forced to change their faith from Islam to Christianity in Spain or the millions who were killed during the inquisition. Western Civilization wasn't very civilized then, was it?


My reference to the enlightenment had to do with the relative development of the two cultures, and not the cycle of aggression and response.

You have expressed a very exaggerated representation of the numbers of people affected by the Inquisition - deaths were in the thousands, not millions (in fact comparable to what was contemporaneously occurring in Elizabethan England at the hands of good Protestants.)

I did not misrepresent the facts concerning the cycles of assaults and responses between the Western Chrristian and Moslem cultures - although you have done so in your rather intemperate response. I agree the sack of Jerusalem in the First Crusade was a murderous event - the Turks repayed the favor a few centuries later at the fall of Byzantium.

The fact is that Islam was spread from Arabia to then Christian North Africa and later into Spain and the Balkans by force of arms and conquest. All that followed was a partial response to that major initiating event. One can trace a cycle of conquest and conflict much farther back than that if he chooses, but I don't think it illuminates the question in a meaningful way The Vandals conquored Western North Africa from Central Europe through Spain during the 5th century, but long before that the Phonecians colonized Tunis and founded an empire that went on to dominate Sicily and much of Spain only to fall in a bitter contest with an emerging Rome etc, etc..

Episodes of tolerance and persecution for minority religions and cultures occurred on both sides of the divide. Both sides often used religion as a rationalization for conquest and piracy. However the evolution of independent seculasr government bodies in Europe was not matched by any corresponding development in the Islamic world, and that made all the difference.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 07:43 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
However the evolution of independent seculasr government bodies in Europe was not matched by any corresponding development in the Islamic world, and that made all the difference.


As you've mentioned, things are never that simple. In the world of Islam, political "solidarity" did not even last as long as the Orthodox Caliphs. The Caliphate never actually exercised the sort of authority that people like to imply, both inside and outside of Islam. At the beginning, it exercised more authority than the Papacy did, but it was not long before internal squabbling between Ali and the Companions ended that ephemeral authority. With the arrival of the Seljuk Turks, all authority of the Caliphate ended, and they became puppets of whichever Turkish warlord currently held sway in Baghdad. In the era of the first crusade, one of the Muslim worlds first great historians, Ibn Qalinisi bewails the lack of unity to confront the "Franj." Throughout the Middle East, and beyond in the North African littoral and in Adalusia, all the local tribal leaders vied with one another. The great Kurdish warrior, Ayyub, was a battlefield commander of one of the erstwhile Turkish tribal leaders who briefly held Baghdad, and he managed to succeed his master and to take control of almost all of the Middle East south of Anatolia, with the invaluable aid of his nephew, Yusuf--known to the Crusaders as Saladin. But the dynasty was weak as is any such tribal dynasty, with Saladin's son lacking the military and leadership skills of his father and his great-uncle. The Mongol invasion put paid to the pretensions of any leader in the region.

I personally see the principle difference between the Muslim world of a millenium ago and the European world as being one of feudalism. Feudalism is basically a primitive coporate relationship, with rights and duties working upward and downward at all a levels. In the Muslim world, the tribalism which characterized pre-Roman Europe continued to prevail. Might made right, and no obligations were understood to be entailed other than those deriving from force majeure. A Muslim living in Andalusia, Ibn Kaldun, travelled from Spain to Cairo in the era before the Mongol invasion, because of a substantial legacy owing to him. Having no family left in Andalusia, and no other strong ties, he determined to become a traveller in the Muslim world. He eventually reached the East Indies (what we call Indonesia), and his record is invaluable, if little known in the West. He visited land held by the Franj in the "Holy Land," and commented at length on the "barbaric" practices of the despised Europeans. At one point, he describes a trial by combat, comparing it with contempt to the well-established courts of "civilized" Muslim cities (whose writ ran no further than the city walls in practice), but then commenting in a puzzled manner that good Muslim farmers and herdsmen seemed to prefer living in the land of the Franj rather than their "natural" Muslim leaders.

He missed the point. A Muslim peasant in the lands of the Franj may have only had a third of the land to call his own--but that was worlds away from his brothers under Muslim control. In the essentially tribal socities of the Muslims, a peasant had nothing, not even that third of the land they worked, and anything they possessed could and often would be taken from them. When the Franj laid seige to Antioch, the city defenders took stock of their supplies, and drove from the city literally thousands of people whom they considered "useless mouths" which they did not intend to feed, and those people could lay no claim to any property, to any residence, to any right of residence. The lowliest serf in European society had some marginal rights in property, and feudalism had come to coarsely recognize simplistic equations of labor supply and demand.

The Muslim irruption out of Arabia toppled a tottering and corrupt Sassanid Empire. The subsequent Seljuk invasion simply ran over the same ground. No vestiges of former systems existed, and the conquerors dictated terms. The barbarian invasion of Europe three centuries earlier had been accomplish more by coporate take-over than by conquest. From the Goths to the Lombards, the major incursions of Germanic tribes had been initially absorbed as foederati--when they seized power, there were already systems of law and commerce in place, and those whom they were to dominate as peasants when Roman authority evaporated in the west already has traditions of rights in property from the days in which the new conquerors has orginally been federated into the Empire. For as shakey as it was, a structure was in place, and there was something upon which to build. Islam swept away all that preceded it, and this is no particular criticism of Islam, this has been true of almost all conquests in history wherever they have occured. I usually don't accept that what existed in China in the Autumn and the Warring States period, and what especially what existed in Japan in the Muromachi and Sengoku periods was feudalism. Although in China, clever military leaders of peasant origins could and successfully did appeal to peasant support--there was never any formal structure which recognized rights at all levels such as existed in feudal Europe. In Japan, it was even more the case--as one sees in early Muslim southwest Asia--that no one had anything which were not granted by the Daimyo, or the Daimyo's overlorad.

Among a host of significant reasons for the eventual rise of European culture from the lowly origins of post-Roman disintegration, feudalism is rarely understood for the great advantage it conferred. Certainly not a perfect system, and as evident in the breach as much as in the observance, it nevertheless represented a concept of right, privilege and duty at all levels of society which has been unique in world history.

Religion ain't got nothin' to do with it . . .
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 11:07 pm
It is always both interesting and illuminating to discuss history with Setanta. I mean this literally - no irony or other overtones should be inferred.

I agree with all your observations Set, particularly the insightful comparison of tribalism and feudalism. I would add however, that, perhaps as a direct consequence of this, the Noslem world never really developed any lasting structures of governance outside of their religion. Even the Ottomans, who stood somewhere between the Arabs and the Europeans, both literally and culturally, had their "Ruling Institution" (the emperor, and their "Governing Institutions" (Islam - and even distinct structures for Christians and Jews). Civil governance was accompished exclusively through the governing institutions. They never developed (or even seriously contemplated) a body of laws and enforcement mechanisms for the governance of civil, criminal and contractural affairs outside of relighion.

During periods of toleration their willingness to accept distinct governiong institutions for minority populations of Greek and Armenian Christians and Jews enabled the Ottomans to do far better than competing Chriastian powers (e.g. Spain) in tolerating (and beneffitting from )energetic, creative minority populations. However their failure to develop any structure of governance apart from religious ultimately deprived them of the breakthroughs that occurred in Europe, beginning in the 17th century.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 11:42 pm
Coming back to the original topic here - thanks for your excellent resposnes, bothe Set and George - here's some news fromm France (which isn't Belgium either, but closely connected):

French philosophy teacher in hiding after attack on Islam
(And that, again, is related to the the 'affair' about the Mozart opera in Berlin.

Those "the recent defacement of mosques in Quimper and Carcassonne, in which they were painted with swastikas and slogans including "France for the French" " - well, you could see similar done by the Belgian Nazis earlier, as I've witnessed a couple of times during the last two, three years.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Oct, 2006 04:46 am
Was reading my copy of the Guardian at the same time Walter :wink:

You have to wonder whether Robert Redeker either has some sort of death wish or is fiercely championing the right of free speech.

I think the latter

this is what he said

Quote:
In a comment piece in Le Figaro on September 19, he said Muhammad was "a merciless warlord, a looter, a mass-murderer of Jews and a polygamist". He called the Qur'an "a book of incredible violence" and contrasted what he said were Christianity's peaceful roots and Islam's violent ones, adding: "Jesus is a master of love, Muhammad a master of hate." He said this year's ban on g-string bikinis at Paris's artificial beach, Paris Plages, was an example of the "Islamicisation" of minds in France. Egypt and Tunisia banned the edition of Le Figaro.


Thanks btw to Set and George for excellent posts above. Would either of you scholars care to comment on Redeker's description of Mohammed?

[at least in this medium one can use the word 'care' as opposed to 'dare']
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Oct, 2006 03:13 pm
Steve 41oo's Source wrote:
. . . Muhammad was "a merciless warlord . . .


He wasn't much of a warlord, he relied upon the Companions, and later, especially upon his cousin and son-in-law, Ali, the great Holy Warrior. He did, however, condone their actions, but generally, the degree of slaughter is more luridly portrayed than there is any historical basis for asserting.

Quote:
. . . a looter . . .


That's a "no-brainer" for those who have read the history of Mecca and Medina in his time. The Kaaba houses what is apparently a large meteorite which was long the object of pilgrimages to Mecca by "pagans" and "idolators" which was very lucrative to the city fathers. Mohammed, an eccentric coot, to say the least, was initially silenced because his attacks on pagans were considered bad form by the powers that were in Mecca. He was bucked up, though, by the earliest Companions, and began his rants once more, which lead to his being driven from Mecca. Mecca and Medina were already commerical rivals, and looting was in the cards even without confessional disputes--open warfare has always entailed some profitable looting among the Arabs.

Quote:
. . . a mass-murderer of Jews . . .


This is more than a little disingenuous. There were a great many confessional Jews all over the Middle East, but precious few ethnic Jews. The Aramaic merchants who were the commercial backbone of trade in the Middle East for more than a millenium (and hence the currency of Aramaic as the lingua franca of Palestine 2000 years ago) became confessional Jews, and spread the religion wherever they traded. Many of the Arab confessional Jews of Mecca and elsewhere in Arabia originally saw Mohammed and the Companions as a threat, and were easily convinced to league against them. It is not correct that Islam, at any time before about 1920 had any particular grudge against ethnic Jews, and when the warfare in Arabia died down, confessional Jews lived, if not happily, at least unmolested side by side with their newly converted Muslim neighbors.

Quote:
. . . and a polygamist.


And a smart one, too--always a ne'er-do-well, he was careful to marry wealthy widows, until, in his dotage, he married Ayesha, and matrimonially raped a nine year-old girl.

Although there are abundant references to violence in Islam, anyone who is being honest will acknowledge that this has been the case in Judaism and Christianity, too. The Muslims were late to the party--more than six hundred years after the putative Jesus. Ask yourself just how peaceful and loving Christians were 600+ years ago.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Oct, 2006 04:06 pm
thanks set more t'morra when a little more clear headed

and have read you post properly
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 01:18 am
Not unexpected: Belgium's far-right party calls for Jews to join war on Islam

Quote:
One of Europe's most successful far-right leaders has appealed to Jewish voters to join forces against radical Islam and back a party denounced as xenophobic.

Filip Dewinter, leader of Belgium's Vlaams Belang, described Antwerp's large Jewish community as natural partners "against the main enemy of the moment, the radical Islam, fundamentalism".
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 03:15 am
Setanta wrote:
Steve 41oo's Source wrote:
. . . Muhammad was "a merciless warlord . . .


He wasn't much of a warlord, he relied upon the Companions, and later, especially upon his cousin and son-in-law, Ali, the great Holy Warrior. He did, however, condone their actions, but generally, the degree of slaughter is more luridly portrayed than there is any historical basis for asserting.

Quote:
. . . a looter . . .


That's a "no-brainer" for those who have read the history of Mecca and Medina in his time. The Kaaba houses what is apparently a large meteorite which was long the object of pilgrimages to Mecca by "pagans" and "idolators" which was very lucrative to the city fathers. Mohammed, an eccentric coot, to say the least, was initially silenced because his attacks on pagans were considered bad form by the powers that were in Mecca. He was bucked up, though, by the earliest Companions, and began his rants once more, which lead to his being driven from Mecca. Mecca and Medina were already commerical rivals, and looting was in the cards even without confessional disputes--open warfare has always entailed some profitable looting among the Arabs.

Quote:
. . . a mass-murderer of Jews . . .


This is more than a little disingenuous. There were a great many confessional Jews all over the Middle East, but precious few ethnic Jews. The Aramaic merchants who were the commercial backbone of trade in the Middle East for more than a millenium (and hence the currency of Aramaic as the lingua franca of Palestine 2000 years ago) became confessional Jews, and spread the religion wherever they traded. Many of the Arab confessional Jews of Mecca and elsewhere in Arabia originally saw Mohammed and the Companions as a threat, and were easily convinced to league against them. It is not correct that Islam, at any time before about 1920 had any particular grudge against ethnic Jews, and when the warfare in Arabia died down, confessional Jews lived, if not happily, at least unmolested side by side with their newly converted Muslim neighbors.

Quote:
. . . and a polygamist.


And a smart one, too--always a ne'er-do-well, he was careful to marry wealthy widows, until, in his dotage, he married Ayesha, and matrimonially raped a nine year-old girl.

Although there are abundant references to violence in Islam, anyone who is being honest will acknowledge that this has been the case in Judaism and Christianity, too. The Muslims were late to the party--more than six hundred years after the putative Jesus. Ask yourself just how peaceful and loving Christians were 600+ years ago.
Again thanks for illuminating post. I suppose the truth is that life for most people was hard brutal and short. Mohammed probably behaved no better or worse than any other tribal leader able to use his power over his devotees to keep himself in relative comfort. My argument with Muslim apologists for Mohammed is that they claim his revelations were brought to the world in the full light of recorded history. That everything he said and did was recorded by scribes who wrote it all down on parchment, vellum, paper and even bones. Yet NONE of those artefacts exists today. We are asked to believe that Mohammed received the true perfect and unchanging word of God, the scribes wrote down the Perfect Words of God...then presumably threw them away or lost them. If you were trying to get a new religion off the ground, and you were lucky enough to be in receipt of the Original Word of God, you would be well advised if you desired to be taken seriously, not to lose them.
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