Ramadan Rioting in Capital of Europe

It seems to me that some here are pushing for the conclusion that muslims are inately violent and/or riot more than people of other religions, and that this riot, rather than being a response to a specific trigger, is evidence of that. Is that what this is about or do you just want to talk about rioting in Brussels because riots and/or Brussels are just that interesting? I just want to get it all out in the open what we're discussing here so we can all stop playing dumb and debate it.

It amazes me the extent to which people are willing to ignore that all, absolutely all of the sources quoted and linked here have reported that the riots ensued upon the death of a 25 year-old Morrocan convict in a Belgian prison.

Now, it may be that rioting youth are rioting because they are convinced that this inmate died because he was a Muslim, and that he was therefore not afforded the care of other, non-Muslim inmates, or that he was subjected to harsher treatement because he was Muslim. But we have no evidence so far that this is the case. Nevertheless, even if this were demonstrated, it does not constitute evidence that Muslims, or the Islamic belief set, are inherently more violent than people from any other religious confession. The rioting in Los Angeles have been referred to--it is highly probable that the people who rioted did so due to a perception that Rodney King had been victimized because of his race. That does not mean that one can deduce from the case that people with brown or black skin are more prone to violence than people who are creamy pink or palidly yellow.

What really astounds me, though, is that both Steve and George acknowledge that economic demographics can well account for the violent behavior of young men (one contention you won't have much trouble convincing me of is that young men are more prone to violence than other descriptions of humans) in this example. And yet, they both brush that aside, and jump to the conclusion, based on no evidence at all, that Muslim rabble-rousers are behind this riot.

Inconceivable . . .

I think if you read Steve's words, you will see he fears there is an slamist connection, not that he knows there is one.

Given other like events in Europe, and the generally unsatisfactory state of assimilation of Moslem immigrantsd in Europe generally (a situation resulting from a complex set of causes), i believe this is a very reasonable conjecture -- certainly more reasonable than the denial that there os one.

I certainly know fears - personally.

It it really might be that the situation in Belgium is like that.

But neither he is there nor anyone else from us as far as I know.

So, I've only looked up local, regional and national Belgian media.

I agree with George that Steve's might be more reasonable than those reports.

I'm not excusing the demos, but I remember having been on streets for minor reasons than a friend who died of .. unknown reasons in a prison.

And why shouldn't people faithful to Islam riot? They are spit upon and discriminated against whereever they go in Europe. Thousands of young Muslims who want to work are without good jobs all over Europe. This is, of course, because of bias against Muslims. The problem is socio-economic in part but it all stems from religious discrimination. Europeans hate and fear Muslim Culture.

george, I don't think anyone is saying that there is NO connection to Islam, just that there isn't evidence of one. We don't know what we don't know, eh? It is just as dangerous to presume a connection without evidence of one as it is to presume NO connection. We're making McG do his homework, that's all. Certainly nothing in his first article led me to believe there was something more to this, despite the obvious efforts to get the reader to make that conclusion.

I believe this too is a collection of unjustifiable (and false) assertions.

Rioting in democratic societies certainly occurs, but, because peaceful opportinities to accomplish the same thing are readily available, they are not justifiable, whether by Moslems or by comfortable French students.

Certainly there have been centuries of conflict between the political structures of European and Moslem cultures respectively - all initiated by centuries of Arab aggression and conquest; followed by centuries of European resistence & reconquest, and finally colonialism. Despite this, there is far less reason to assert that "Europeans hate and fear Moslem culture" than there is the converse. Certainly, even despite the many imperfections of European assimilation of Moslem immigrants, the obvious fact remains that European nations have generally been far more tolerant of the cultural impact of their Moaslem immigrants than have been the Moslem countries from which they came of their European residents and visitors.

Additionally the major part of the assimilation problems in Europe appear to be far more the unintended side effects of (until recently) very successful applications of social democrat labor market regulation and social welfare programs than abnormal levels of intolerance on their part. Certainly Europe experiences political reaction to the influx of people and influences from other cultures -- just as does America and the Moslem world as well. Whatever differences there are between American and Euriopean success in such assimilation appear to me at least to have much more to do with the essential historical role of immigration in American history, and, perhaps more importantly, the relative openness of our respective labor markets. These are factors that have very little to do with our respective attitudes towards Moslems - they are instead the side effects of basically unrelated matters.

Finally, by every historical standard, the Western political, economic and social culture has - at least since the Enlightenment - proven itsellf to be far more adaptable, tolerant, and progressive than has the relatively backward culture prevailing in the Moslem world. There are notable exceptions to this, particularly in terms of the wars of the last century and the exploition that accompanied European colonialism. However, though it has become fashionable to focus only on these exceptions, the difference to which I refer is plain for all to see,

All persons arrested a week ago were set free the other day.
And again, they were neither Moslems or French students but neighbours/friends/citizens of that Brussel quarter where the person who died the day before in prison, from still unknown reasons, lived.

George makes a very valid point that Europeans are far more tolerant of "muslim culture"...and other minority groups, than is reciprocated by Muslim countries to, for example, christians.

I've said I dont know if the recent rioting was orchestrated or "fanned" by political-islamists. But it might be. The row over the Danish cartoons most certainly was.

Or it might not be.

Until I know it for sure, I just trust the Belgian police and the media at place.

Really Walter, you trust the Belgian police?

To do what?

At least, I take their pressreleases as more correct than I trust some ultra-right-wing site as quoted here.

Besides, I honestly do believe that the broad variety of Belgian papers (in French, Flemish and German) should be used as source as well.

Well as I've said several times, I dont pretend to know the details about these riots. However it does seem possible, that political activists are exploiting any grievance real or imagined to stir up anti "western" passions amongst Muslims. I hope I'm wrong, but thats how it seems to me.

I don'z doubt that. But at least in nthis case it was about the death of someone in prison ... and as far as the rumour is, those "riots" really will become worse since it seems the prison doctor ...

Well, we'll see.


On a second thought: it may of course be that the Vandalls retuned to the places they've been before ...

George says since the enlightenment. He dares not talk about the massacres of the Muslims in Jerusalem by the Christian 'crusaders" or the millions who were forced to change their faith from Islam to Christianity in Spain or the millions who were killed during the inquisition. Western Civilization wasn't very civilized then, was it?

They got some outstanding deals with Air Carthage...as the map shows.

Marion I dont know why you feel the need to excuse Muslim violence by pointing out Christian violence. Or do you think the Atocha bombings were justified by the Spanish Inquisition?....(who for your information did not kill "millions")

Hmm. :wink:

More seriously (and, Steve, you may ask Mrs. Steve about that) all this here reminds me alarmingly at what happend in Europe before, e.g. in 1349 in Basle. (There and then, between 150 and 300 Jews [= all who could flee] were killed in fear of the Black Death - dies, notabene, before the Black Death was any near. [And besides that it was even then a known nonsense that Jews were the origin of the outbreak of that disease.])

Why, may I ask, does nobody pay attention to the fact (sic!) that the demonstrations stopped when the autopsy was announced/started?

Are you saying Muslims are the new Jews?

At least, some seem to handle it the way, in my view.