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Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 06:12 pm
Foxfyre wrote:


Look, you're reading something into the comment that just isn't there. It is funny if you happen to be a conservative American who doubts the Democrats will be as aggressive against terroism as the GOP has been. It was not meant to be taken literally. This is the Bush Supporters thread and I reserve the right to enjoy my own sense of humor on it. So please don't try to make it into something more than it was intended to be either by the person who made the comment or by somebody like me who appreciates the joke.


That has to be the funniest piece of irony that I've ever heard, Foxfyre. The Democrats couldn't possibly be worse.

For the Republicans, the WH really, this has been nothing but a major clusterphuck from day 1. They have done nothing but cause the deaths of possibly, a hundred thousand innocent people who had NOTHING to do with terrorism.

How you can maintain a sense of humor when these assholes cross your mind is truly an amazing thing. If your idea of a joke is the deaths and untold suffering of tens of thousands of innocents, words fail me in my efforts to describe such uncaring carelessness.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 08:28 pm
JTT wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:


Look, you're reading something into the comment that just isn't there. It is funny if you happen to be a conservative American who doubts the Democrats will be as aggressive against terroism as the GOP has been. It was not meant to be taken literally. This is the Bush Supporters thread and I reserve the right to enjoy my own sense of humor on it. So please don't try to make it into something more than it was intended to be either by the person who made the comment or by somebody like me who appreciates the joke.


That has to be the funniest piece of irony that I've ever heard, Foxfyre. The Democrats couldn't possibly be worse.

For the Republicans, the WH really, this has been nothing but a major clusterphuck from day 1. They have done nothing but cause the deaths of possibly, a hundred thousand innocent people who had NOTHING to do with terrorism.

How you can maintain a sense of humor when these **** cross your mind is truly an amazing thing. If your idea of a joke is the deaths and untold suffering of tens of thousands of innocents, words fail me in my efforts to describe such uncaring carelessness.


Yeah its awful isn't it? But those tens of thousands of innocents are being killed at the hands or via the orders/actions of madmen and terrorists. You see the difference between you and me is that I and most of the GOP see the terrorists as the bad guys. The point of the joke in dispute is that the Democrats will instead see America as the bad guys. You just sort of reinforced that point didn't you.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:40 pm
Well, let's see. Bush made the decision to attack Iraq because Saddam had WMDs. He did a "shock and awe" bombing campaign on Iraq that killed thousands of innocent people. Then, he changed his justification to getting rid of the tyrant, Saddam. After that, it was to bring democracy to the Middle East. Now, it's a war against terrorism. During all this time, our soldiers have killed over 50,000 innocent Iraqis, because Bush said Saddam had WMDs that he can use on us or sell it to other terrorists.

It's really sad some people refuse to see the injustice of having attacked Iraq in the first place, but to continue to support Bush's war in Iraq is a crime against humanity. Our country's defense was developed to keep our country safe from aggression; not to bring democracy to the world, and to attack a sovereign country that had no means to attack or harm us.

In case none of you neocons have noticed, the majority of Americans now say our invasion of Iraq was wrong. Not only that, but that we have lost the war. Only Bush and some blind people continue to believe we can win in Iraq. They're willing to sacrifice more of our men and women for this war that only gets worse every month.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 12:02 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Well, let's see. Bush made the decision to attack Iraq because Saddam had WMDs. He did a "shock and awe" bombing campaign on Iraq that killed thousands of innocent people. Then, he changed his justification to getting rid of the tyrant, Saddam. After that, it was to bring democracy to the Middle East. Now, it's a war against terrorism. During all this time, our soldiers have killed over 50,000 innocent Iraqis, because Bush said Saddam had WMDs that he can use on us or sell it to other terrorists.

It's really sad some people refuse to see the injustice of having attacked Iraq in the first place, but to continue to support Bush's war in Iraq is a crime against humanity. Our country's defense was developed to keep our country safe from aggression; not to bring democracy to the world, and to attack a sovereign country that had no means to attack or harm us.

In case none of you neocons have noticed, the majority of Americans now say our invasion of Iraq was wrong. Not only that, but that we have lost the war. Only Bush and some blind people continue to believe we can win in Iraq. They're willing to sacrifice more of our men and women for this war that only gets worse every month.


Well lets tally the situation. Saddam thwarted the UN weapons inspectors on every hand, violated every UN resolution, and was shooting at the peace keepers who were there to keep him from murdering Kurds and Kuwaitis.

Every member of the Bush administration, the head of the CIA, virtually every member of the U.N., virtually every head of State in the free world, virtually every member of Congress, and every member of the previous administration is on record as believing Saddam had WMD. Both the 9/11 Commission and the Duelfer Report stated Saddam's intentions to resume WMD development once the sanctions were listed. Recent evidence points to the probability of more WMD being present than was found, but at any rate the 12 weeks we allowed the UN to deliberate gave Saddam plenty of time to dispose of, hide, or ship out any WMD he had on hand. Recent new evidence suggests even more strongly that he had it at the time we invaded though we don't know where most of it was.

Meanwhile some estimated 50,000 Iraqis suffered and died as a direct result of the UN sanctions because Saddam diverted to his own purposes oil for food monies intended for food and medicine for the people. How humane would it be to have left Saddam in power and continued the sanctions? The low estimate of those Saddam murdered of his own people is 400,000 and the high end is 1 million and that does not count all those who were tortured, brutalized, blinded, maimed, raped, terrorized, etc. etc. on an ongoing basis.

I defy you to present any evidence from any credible source that shows that we have killed anywhere close to "50,000 innocent Iraqis". You would be hard put to document more than a few hundred, if even that, who were caught in the fire fights and died. The terrorists however are killing innocent Iraqis every day. On purpose.

And absolutely none of this has anything to do with the fact that somebody recognized that the GOP is more dedicated to fighting the terrorists than the Democrats seem to be these days, a fact that has not escaped the terrorists themselves. And somebody made a joke about it. And that has thrown some lefties on the thread into a state of apolexy.

And some of us continue to believe that it is the terrorists who are the bad guys and not the USA.

Does that about cover it?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 02:41 am
The criminal and misguided efforts of Bushco have had the effect of strengthening the hand of muslim extremism everywhere.

Iran has voted fundamentalist. Likewise Palestine. US foreign policy in the ME is in tatters, the parts of it which are not in reverse.

Some legacy. Some leadership.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 05:28 am
The inspectors were on the ground inspecting away when Bush ordered them out and invaded.

It does not matter-repeat-does not matter that on previous rounds of inspections Saddam Hussein did not cooperate fully. On the round of inspections which were underway, scientists were allowed to leave the country while being questioned at UN expense, other Iraqis were not present during the questioning, and the inspectors had total right to search any property at all without notice. Even if it was private property-such a thing would be unconstitutional if carried out in the US-and

It is no mistake or coincidence that as the at last unhindered inspections were taking place, Bush decided to cut them short and invade. Bush himself, who clearly wanted to invade, began to realize that perhaps the WMD's were not really there. He had the country behind him, all set to invade, and he wasn't about to let some inspectors spoil his invasion.

So the order went out to the inspectors to leave, and in Bush rolled-almost on the anniversary of the day his father withdrew.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 07:46 am
The 9/11 Report, the Duelfer report, and many other sources, all of which have been posted on this and/or other threads, disprove C.I.'s version, McTag's version, and KW's version and back up my version fully.

But Merry Christmas gentlemen. I suggest we declare a Christmas truce and suspend hostilities for the next few days.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 08:09 am
Christmas truce certainly.

I will keep my opinions about GWB and his band until 2007, or at least until next week.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 09:03 am
http://i12.tinypic.com/2uhpp20.jpg
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 09:16 am
Walter must not have gotten the memo. Smile

So all in good fun. . .

http://media2.salemwebnetwork.com/Townhall/Car/b/Shelton_C20061220.jpg
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 10:22 am
Walter has probably heard that they're moving another aircraft carrier into the Persian Gulf, in case Ahmadinnerjacket closes the Straits of Hormuz to shipping no doubt.

Don't they know it's Christmas?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 12:22 pm
McTag wrote:
The criminal and misguided efforts of Bushco have had the effect of strengthening the hand of muslim extremism everywhere.

Iran has voted fundamentalist. Likewise Palestine. US foreign policy in the ME is in tatters, the parts of it which are not in reverse.

Some legacy. Some leadership.


Perhaps so. However it all originated as a direct consequence of British and Franch greed and colonialism before and during WWI. Same with the Zionist matter and near simultaneous British duplicity to the Rothschilds and the Hashemites. The German Nazis, of course capped it off with the Holocaust - and other Europeans with their indifference, even hostility, toward "displaced" surviving Jews immediately after WWII.

Some legacy. Some foundation for hypocritical criticism of those who are left to clean up after them.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 12:24 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
McTag wrote:
The criminal and misguided efforts of Bushco have had the effect of strengthening the hand of muslim extremism everywhere.

Iran has voted fundamentalist. Likewise Palestine. US foreign policy in the ME is in tatters, the parts of it which are not in reverse.

Some legacy. Some leadership.


Perhaps so. However it all originated as a direct consequence of British and Franch greed and colonialism before and during WWI. Same with the Zionist matter and near simultaneous British duplicity to the Rothschilds and the Hashemites. The Nazis, of course capped it off with the Holocaust - and other Europeans with their indifference, even hostility, toward "displaced" surviving Jews immediately after WWII.

Some legacy. Some foundation for hypocritical criticism of those who are left to clean up after them.


Naturally, we have no control over events which happened in the past - only those currently happening. Therefore it is somewhat pointless to call those who are criticizing the US 'hypocritical,' because they have never had an opportunity to do anything differently.

Or, is not Euro allowed to criticize the US' actions - because of the past?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 12:30 pm
Cyclo, Good point: criticisms work both ways. If we can't handle it, we shouldn't dish it out!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 12:34 pm
What is your definition of the past?? Is 2003 in the past? Think about your comment and ask yourself if it has any real meaning with respect to the individuals posting here.

While the facts of the current reality in the Gulf region are easily known, we can only imagine what would be happening now if Saddam Hussein was still in charge of Iraq. Having lost in his attempt to take Kuwait, he very likely would have made a deal with Iran.

However, to answer your question directly , I would say the period of silent shame for Europeans should last for another generation or two. They do seem to believe their historical slate was wiped clean after Suez in 1956, while ours is indellable. Remarkable hypocrisy.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 12:39 pm
georgeob, It doesn't matter whether it's historic or current events; don't we all look at history to develop our personal opinions about what is happening today? Why must we forget history in order to discuss what is relevant today? Trying to restrict our thinking is not realistic.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 01:13 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
What is your definition of the past?? Is 2003 in the past? Think about your comment and ask yourself if it has any real meaning with respect to the individuals posting here.

While the facts of the current reality in the Gulf region are easily known, we can only imagine what would be happening now if Saddam Hussein was still in charge of Iraq. Having lost in his attempt to take Kuwait, he very likely would have made a deal with Iran.

However, to answer your question directly , I would say the period of silent shame for Europeans should last for another generation or two. They do seem to believe their historical slate was wiped clean after Suez in 1956, while ours is indellable. Remarkable hypocrisy.


I don't disagree with the idea that Europe should have learned a larger lesson in Humility after we saved their bacon a few times.

However, I think when those who promulgate certain policies are still in office, promoting and advancing those same policies, to questionable effect, we don't really consider that the 'past' in the same way as we do events in which the major players are long dead and buried.

Criticisms of those events (long-dead ones) have an effectively zero percent chance of changing modern events, whereas criticism of the way the last few years have gone has a chance of effecting the close future. Therefore it is infinitely more justified/useful to criticise recent events then those in the past.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 01:46 pm
It is important to consider current events in their historical context so that we can accurately understand and interpret them, and not be mislead about just what is the meaning and cause of the things we are dealing with today. It is an act of amazing vanity and frankly, remarkable ignorance, to suppose that the Islamist fanaticism that we are dealing with today, and which McTag, and other Europeans posting here, suppose are the result of American policy, does not have clear and unmistakable roots in the misruke and colonialism of Britain, France, and to a lesser extent the Netherlands, and as well in the events that drove hundreds of thousands of desperate European Jews to Palestine..

While it is easy for Europeans, steeped in their comfortable, but unsustainable prosperity, to imagine that their world would be so much better if it weren't for American "interventionism" as they call it, this is an amazingly shortsighted view - one that ignores both the historical causes of current events and as well the likely future impacts on themselves. It is very easy to criticize the real and imagined failings of one who is actively in the arena attempting to deal with issues -- particularly if one is a spectator, standing safely on the sidelines. It is much harder to act constructively in dealing directly with a thousand difficulties.

If the critical spectator is himself the cause of the issues in question, then his actions are truly beneath contempt. This is most certainly the case for the French and other continental powers, including Germany. The British at least have some sense of responsibility and can be counted on for at least lukewarm support. However none of them deserves the soapboxes from which they so vociferously preach to us.

The skys have cleared a bit here after several days of grey clouds and rain. Family and friends are gathering for Christmas celebration and cheer. Please don't mistake my very strongly held conclusions and observations in these matters as a personal affront. I wish all of you a very happy Christmas (or Holiday) and good fortune all year.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 02:14 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
It is important to consider current events in their historical context so that we can accurately understand and interpret them, and not be mislead about just what is the meaning and cause of the things we are dealing with today. It is an act of amazing vanity and frankly, remarkable ignorance, to suppose that the Islamist fanaticism that we are dealing with today, and which McTag, and other Europeans posting here, suppose are the result of American policy, does not have clear and unmistakable roots in the misruke and colonialism of Britain, France, and to a lesser extent the Netherlands, and as well in the events that drove hundreds of thousands of desperate European Jews to Palestine..

While it is easy for Europeans, steeped in their comfortable, but unsustainable prosperity, to imagine that their world would be so much better if it weren't for American "interventionism" as they call it, this is an amazingly shortsighted view - one that ignores both the historical causes of current events and as well the likely future impacts on themselves. It is very easy to criticize the real and imagined failings of one who is actively in the arena attempting to deal with issues -- particularly if one is a spectator, standing safely on the sidelines. It is much harder to act constructively in dealing directly with a thousand difficulties.

If the critical spectator is himself the cause of the issues in question, then his actions are truly beneath contempt. This is most certainly the case for the French and other continental powers, including Germany. The British at least have some sense of responsibility and can be counted on for at least lukewarm support. However none of them deserves the soapboxes from which they so vociferously preach to us.

The skys have cleared a bit here after several days of grey clouds and rain. Family and friends are gathering for Christmas celebration and cheer. Please don't mistake my very strongly held conclusions and observations in these matters as a personal affront. I wish all of you a very happy Christmas (or Holiday) and good fortune all year.


Nice post, two thoughts:

First, I think the Europeans - who cannot go back and make their former leaders do things differently in the ME 60 years ago - cannot accurately be said to be the 'cause' of the issue in question; while they and their disastrous colonialism set the stage for our current conlficts, they did not precipiate them.

Second, if the Eurpoeans have realized how disastrous their former intervention was, and now counsel others not to make the same mistakes that they have made; does that not show that they have learned somewhat?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 02:19 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
McTag wrote:
The criminal and misguided efforts of Bushco have had the effect of strengthening the hand of muslim extremism everywhere.

Iran has voted fundamentalist. Likewise Palestine. US foreign policy in the ME is in tatters, the parts of it which are not in reverse.

Some legacy. Some leadership.


Perhaps so. However it all originated as a direct consequence of British and Franch greed and colonialism before and during WWI. Same with the Zionist matter and near simultaneous British duplicity to the Rothschilds and the Hashemites. The German Nazis, of course capped it off with the Holocaust - and other Europeans with their indifference, even hostility, toward "displaced" surviving Jews immediately after WWII.

Some legacy. Some foundation for hypocritical criticism of those who are left to clean up after them.


George, this is a bizarre response in the extreme, and not up to your usual standard.

European criticism of USA is hypocritical because of European mistakes in the past?

What nonsense.

(note to Foxy, I haven't broken the truce yet)
0 Replies
 
 

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