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Pope launches scathing attack on Islam

 
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 06:43 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Its not Islam thats the enemy. Its the violent minority who use political islam as justification for waging jihad against us. Our response has been to drop bombs on them, when the real battle should be for men's minds.

Why do we do this, when its obvious it only drives more muslims into the arms of the extremists?


Since none of the so called moderate Muslims have forcefully condemed the actions, what else can one conclude, other then they agree with their "extremests friends".
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 07:25 am
kickycan wrote:
Yes, I did, but when I did it, I was trying to show you how it feels when someone negatively labels you without any evidence to back it up. You did it because you meant it, based on an assumption.

<still waiting for snood to show some integrity and apologize>


See, this is what I mean, Kickycan - you think you can show your ass indiscriminately, say all grades of inappropriate things about whatever suits you, then try to hold someone else accountable for calling you on it.

I will stand by my assertion that "calling muslims "stupid goat-fuc*ers" was racist. Hold your breath wating for that apoplogy at your own risk.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 07:37 am
snood wrote:
I will stand by my assertion that "calling muslims "stupid goat-fuc*ers" was racist. Hold your breath wating for that apoplogy at your own risk.


If that's the way you see it, even after looking back at who I was actually referring to, then I can only conclude that you have the reading comprehension of a five-year-old.

And I'm not holding you accountable for calling me on anything. I'm holding you accountable for being wrong, and not having the balls to admit it and apologize.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 08:12 am
kickycan wrote:
snood wrote:
I will stand by my assertion that "calling muslims "stupid goat-fuc*ers" was racist. Hold your breath wating for that apoplogy at your own risk.


If that's the way you see it, even after looking back at who I was actually referring to, then I can only conclude that you have the reading comprehension of a five-year-old.

And I'm not holding you accountable for calling me on anything. I'm holding you accountable for being wrong, and not having the balls to admit it and apologize.


If I'm wrong and you're not what I called you, why do you care what I think? You've called me some things that I'm not, and I ain't losing sleep.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 08:15 am
woiyo wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Its not Islam thats the enemy. Its the violent minority who use political islam as justification for waging jihad against us. Our response has been to drop bombs on them, when the real battle should be for men's minds.

Why do we do this, when its obvious it only drives more muslims into the arms of the extremists?


Since none of the so called moderate Muslims have forcefully condemed the actions, what else can one conclude, other then they agree with their "extremests friends".


Well perhaps things are not as they appear. Those neo cons are masters at game playing. Why would you try to destroy al Qaida with a strategy which anyone with half a brain can see only ends up strengthening it?
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 08:21 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Its not Islam thats the enemy. Its the violent minority who use political islam as justification for waging jihad against us. Our response has been to drop bombs on them, when the real battle should be for men's minds.

Why do we do this, when its obvious it only drives more muslims into the arms of the extremists?


Since none of the so called moderate Muslims have forcefully condemed the actions, what else can one conclude, other then they agree with their "extremests friends".


Well perhaps things are not as they appear. Those neo cons are masters at game playing. Why would you try to destroy al Qaida with a strategy which anyone with half a brain can see only ends up strengthening it?


If you are saying the Britich and US leadership blew the Iraq campaign, I agree. We should have taken more time in Afgan and made sure we killed them all before we went into Iraq.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 08:25 am
Pope asked to convert to Islam
19/09/2006 15:56 - (SA)

Tripoli - The elder son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has called on Pope Benedict XVI to convert to Islam immediately, dismissing last week's apology from the pontiff for offending Muslims.

"If this person were really someone reasonable, he would not agree to remain at his post one minute, but would convert to Islam immediately," Mohammed Gaddafi told an awards ceremony on Monday evening for an international competition to memorise the Qur'an.

"We say to the pope - whether you apologise or not is irrelevant, as apologies make no difference to us."

Gaddafi junior also hit out at "those Muslims who look for comfort in the words of a non-Muslim".

He said Muslims "should not look for charity from the infidel... but should fight Islam's enemies who attack the faith and the Prophet Muhammad".

On Sunday, the pope said he was "deeply sorry" for the reaction to a speech he made last week in which he quoted an obscure medieval text that criticised some teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman".

The speech sparked several days of protests in Muslim countries against the leader of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics.

Although the pontiff's apology was widely rejected as insufficient, anti-pope protests seemed to subside on Tuesday with the only planned event a rally by foreign theology students in the Iranian clerical capital of Qom.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 08:33 am
Snood, would you call "all Christians are pig-f*ckers" racist? Its pretty damn rude, but is it racist? I would say no, Christians are all different races. So are Muslims.

But if you used the same term against the Japanese, or black people, or against any group on the basis of their ethnicity alone and not just their religion, then I would say that most certainly is racist.

Its a difficult one I admit, made more complex by the fact that in this country the group of people who practice Judaism is deemed to be one and the same as the Jewish people. So saying "all followers of Judaism are p.... f...." is racist, because thats the same as saying "all Jews are p...f..."


Until someone defines "muslim" as a distinct ethnicity or race, I dont think the original phrase is actually racist, albeit highly offense. A 'muslim' is a follower of Islam, and Islam is a religion, not a racial grouping.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 08:59 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Its not Islam thats the enemy. Its the violent minority who use political islam as justification for waging jihad against us. Our response has been to drop bombs on them, when the real battle should be for men's minds.

Why do we do this, when its obvious it only drives more muslims into the arms of the extremists?


That "minority" is now looking more like like on third of the Muslim population.

The radicals have only solidified the collective "reasonable" world's resolve for freedom.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 05:44 am
this is bloody outragous

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5368922.stm

Quote:
Few Muslims were ever punished for the violence in Sulawesi, and none to more than 15 years in jail.

A Muslim man along with others look at the grave of Dominggus da Silva, one of the three Indonesian Christians executed on Friday
The executions have highlighted the religious divide

Human rights workers also claim that while it was possible the three men took part in some of the violence in 2000, they were almost certainly not the masterminds.

The executions had been due to take place last month, but the three men were given a reprieve after a plea for clemency from Pope Benedict XVI, and demonstrations by thousands of Christians.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 05:50 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5369996.stm


Quote:
Pope to meet Muslim ambassadors

The Pope says his comments has been "misunderstood"
The Pope has invited envoys of Muslim nations for talks on Monday to try to smooth relations following a speech that offended the Islamic world.

The talks at Pope Benedict XVI's summer residence will aim to explain that the pontiff's recent speech in Germany has been misunderstood, the Vatican said.

The pontiff has said three times that he regrets the offence caused, expressing "deep respect" for Islam.

Muslim leaders have been demanding an unequivocal apology from the Pope.
The pope should issue an encyclical telling them to get stuffed.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Sep, 2006 01:40 pm
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20060918/lpo060918.gif

MMMMM, Maybe the reason the world is so mad is because it is so religious.
0 Replies
 
sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Sep, 2006 06:57 pm
Thomas wrote:
sunlover wrote:
The pope didn't apologize to Muslims for his offensive comments against their religion, he apologized to the rest of the world because the Muslims reacted violently to his remarks. He has not yet addressed the religion of Islam directly, and could do just that.

Which offensive comments? I suspect you haven't read the pope's lecture. Here is the paragraph that set off all the anger:
    In the seventh conversation (διάλεξις - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded, on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (σὺν λόγω) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".

Source

Benedict cites a medieval Christian comment on Islam. He makes clear he did not share the commenters opinion. He notes that the comment is overbroad in making its accusations "[w]ithout descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels". The pope also doesn't like the tone of the comment either. He calls it "a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded". There can be no doubt that Benedict did not agree with the source that he cited in this paragraph.

Exactly what part of the pope's speech do you think he should apologize for?


Exactly what he finally did apologize for: Not showing respect for the Islamic religion.

Why would this pope prove a point by bringing up some remark made during a time when neither the Catholic nor the Moslem, and none of royalty in general showed respect for one another. Bloody times, those first 14 centuries. How do we know that remark wasn't aimed at the Christian church by its own members? Christians killed Christians (The Cathars (calling them "heretics"), 4 or 5 other religions they called "pagans")," Christians killed Jews, Christians killed all the Knights Templar, their own Crusade army. Probably for the "treasure." I don't believe people in those days fought over "religion" and they aren't fighting over religion today.

And, yes, I read the entire speech as it was first posted on this thread.
0 Replies
 
sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Sep, 2006 07:11 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Adding to Thomas's question: and why shuld the Pope apologize for something, a member of a different church (Greek Orthodox) said ... centuries ago?


Because he used the quote today to humiliate a people and their religion. Seems the sticky event will blow over, so, what's wrong with an apology?

The Christians won, the Christians wrote the history. Rub it in. The remark was made to inflame.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 06:13 am
Nice article.

Quote:
Muhammad's sword

Pope Benedict XVI in the service of George W. Bush

By Uri Avner

09/24/06 "Information Clearing House" -- -- Since the days when Roman emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.

Constantine the Great, who became emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the emperors and the popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some emperors dismissed or expelled a pope, some popes dismissed or excommunicated an emperor. One of the emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when emperors and popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a worldwide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "clash of civilizations".

In his lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the Prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

When Manuel II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On 29 May 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul), fell to the Turks, putting an end to the empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

Is there any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, Verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant Verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith."

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the Prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: how did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favourites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

There no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics reconquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

Why? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "global war on terror" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

Uri Avnery is an Israeli author and activist. He is the head of the Israeli peace movement, "Gush Shalom". http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 06:41 am
So how did Islam spread from the Arabian peninsula to Morrocco in the West to Indonesia in the East in a couple of hundred years? By persuasion? Become a muslim then you dont have to pay the special non muslim poll tax?

Mohammed's god told him to conquer. His followers liked to conquer, and they enjoyed the spoils of war. They killed those who opposed them and took their women and children as slaves.

There is no denying Christians Muslims and Jews slaughtered all sorts of enemies for land, water and treasure.

Today economic interests play an even more obvious role. Does bin Laden threaten to bomb the west unless the west converts to Islam? No he wants western interests out of Arabia where they control the oil, because controlling the oil is what he wants to do.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:06 am
I found this answer, which seems quite reasonable.

http://www.geocities.com/mewatch99/

Quote:
This myth, which was made popular in Europe during the Crusades,about spraeding of islam by sword, is totally baseless.

First of all, the Holy Quran clearly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion". In addition to this, Islam teaches that a person's faith must be pure and sincere, so it is certainly not something that can be forced on someone. In debunking the myth that Islam was "spread by the sword", the (non-Muslim) historian De Lacy O'Leary wrote:

"History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever accepted." (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p. 8.)

It should also be known that Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have Christian and/or Jewish populations. If Islam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islamic Empire? Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realize that they were far too few to force people to be members of a religion against their will. Additionally, the great empire and civilization established by the Muslims had great staying power -- its citizens were proud to be part of it.

The spread of Islam stands in contrast to the actions of the followers of Christianity, who since the time of the Emperor Constantine have made liberal use of the sword - often basing their conduct on Biblical verses. This was especially true of the colonization of South America and Africa, where native peoples were systematically wiped-out or forced to convert.

It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it. This is a unique occurrence in history - the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered! Since they were the victors, they certainly could not have been forced to become Muslims! Ask any of the over one billion Muslims alive in the world today whether they were forced! The largest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia --- and there were never any battles fought there!

So where was the sword? How could someone be forced to adhere to a spiritually rewarding and demanding religion like Islam?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:25 am
thats a rabid Islamist site

I prefer Oxford University and the London School of African and Oriental Studies


In Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, (Professor) Crone argued that the early Muslim converts turned to Islam because it promised an Arab state based on conquest, rape and pillage.

Quote:
God could scarcely have been more explicit. He told the Arabs that they had a right to despoil others of their women, children and land, or indeed that they had a duty to do so: holy war consisted in obeying.


Quote:
Mohammed's God endorsed a policy of conquest, instructing his believers to fight against unbelievers wherever they might be found. In short, Mohammed had to conquer, his followers liked to conquer, and his deity told him to conquer
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:36 am
You should have tried to refute the 'rabid Islamist sites claims'. Thats if you wanted people to take you seriously.

Anyway, (Professor) Crone, doesn't sound like an Arabic name.

Oh, and i don't see the word 'sword' in your post.
0 Replies
 
sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 10:39 am
Zingu and Freedom4Free, thanks for the history lessons, I've been reading on the forming of Christianity for the past year and the more I read, the more confusing. So much history crammed in those first 14 centuries, so many turns and twists in so many wars with the mix of politics and religion most incredible.

But, what is happening today is George Bush just continues to bring religion into every speech, odd thing is I don't think he's religious but just uses little silly remarks like God-Bless-You to infuriate. I think now that this pope has entered into the foray the exposure of Christianity's fake beginnings is crucial. Truth does, and will, set us free.

At the least, the pope should have owned up to the use of the "sword" in Christianity's history. Or, would that be burning at the stake.
0 Replies
 
 

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