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Pope launches scathing attack on Islam

 
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 02:42 pm
Benedict's comments on Islam unite Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis in anger



By Rebecca Santana
ASSOCIATED PRESS

1:18 p.m. September 15, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Often divided by religious differences, Iraq's Shiite and Sunni Arabs united Friday in anger over remarks by Pope Benedict XVI referring to Islam and holy war.

Clerics from both communities, which are locked in a vicious cycle of reprisal attacks that have killed thousands of Iraqis, called the pontiff's comments an insult to the Muslim faith and its founder, Prophet Muhammad.


'We denounce this slander made by the pope on Islam and the figure of the Prophet Muhammad,' Sheik Salah al-Ubaidi said in a sermon to about 5,000 people in the Shiite Muslim-stronghold of Kufa, about 100 miles south of Baghdad.

'It is the second assault made on Islam and the prophet. Last year, and in the same month, the Danish cartoon assaulted Islam,' he said, referring to caricatures of Muhammad published in a Danish newspaper that set off sometimes violent Muslim protests around the globe.

At the Abdul-Qadir al-Gilani mosque in central Baghdad, Sunni cleric Mahmoud al-Isawi's sermon described the pope's comment as a 'Western aggressive attack' that was 'clearly showing its hatred toward our Islamic religion.'

Shiite cleric Sheik Abdul-Kareem al-Ghazi, in Iraq's second-largest city, Basra, said the pope's comments ran counter to the Christian faith.

'The pope and Vatican proved to be Zionists and that they are far from Christianity, which does not differ from Islam. Both religions call for forgiveness, love and brotherhood,' he said in a sermon delivered at the offices of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, where many people gather for religious services.

Al-Ghazi challenged Benedict or any other senior Vatican official to a debate, saying he would be willing to convert to Christianity if the pontiff managed to convince him of his views.


dailystar
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:01 pm
freedom4free wrote:
RexRed

Quote:
And who is setting off bombs in Baghdad on a weekly almost daily basis the US soldiers and George Bush or Islamic fascists?


They're Iraqi resistance fighters. Bush has caused the chaos, his soldiers have raped Iraq. What the f*** do you expect them to do, throw flowers ? Laughing

Bush's army is in their country you fool.

What would you do if America was invaded and Iraqi soldiers killed your family and raped your teenage daughters ?

Strap a 'love and compassion' bomb? Laughing


Bush/America (representing the coalition of the "willing") is in a country that HAD a totalitarian DICTATOR. I thought you preferred hate over love... Now I am convinced. Saddam was voted in in coerced Iraqi blood remember? No UN and the beloved dictator communist lover Jimmy carter oversaw and endorsed that farce. Who would have foreseen that that Islamic EVIL would flock to Iraq to try and stop FREEDOM. You would have voted for George at the barrel of a gun? Who would have known that the radical "left" in America and abroad would do everything in their power to impede and watch the freedom of millions NOT take root so they could say, YEA! Bush failed... You are nothing but hot air and stinky wind. Eeeeewwwwwww.

Can you say, "individual liberty and freedom"? Or is that a swear word in your vocabulary too?

You will get pale, fat and sickly looking if you only feed yourself on the junk food of the likes of Michael Moore and George Soros. I am sure you embrace their socialist movement to limit human freedom and create a big government where they can pollute the world with totalitarian fear again.

You are just another terrorist to human freedom and dignity. You are subtle and hidden where your counterparts are right in your face with their guns paid for with the blood of the innocents.

Shame on you.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:15 pm
Give me some time and I will make comments that will in comparison make the Pope's comments seem mild and playful as a catholic school girls.

I answer to the name "blasphemy"... Laughing
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:20 pm
freedom4free wrote:
Benedict's comments on Islam unite Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis in anger



By Rebecca Santana
ASSOCIATED PRESS

1:18 p.m. September 15, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Often divided by religious differences, Iraq's Shiite and Sunni Arabs united Friday in anger over remarks by Pope Benedict XVI referring to Islam and holy war.

Clerics from both communities, which are locked in a vicious cycle of reprisal attacks that have killed thousands of Iraqis, called the pontiff's comments an insult to the Muslim faith and its founder, Prophet Muhammad.


'We denounce this slander made by the pope on Islam and the figure of the Prophet Muhammad,' Sheik Salah al-Ubaidi said in a sermon to about 5,000 people in the Shiite Muslim-stronghold of Kufa, about 100 miles south of Baghdad.

'It is the second assault made on Islam and the prophet. Last year, and in the same month, the Danish cartoon assaulted Islam,' he said, referring to caricatures of Muhammad published in a Danish newspaper that set off sometimes violent Muslim protests around the globe.

At the Abdul-Qadir al-Gilani mosque in central Baghdad, Sunni cleric Mahmoud al-Isawi's sermon described the pope's comment as a 'Western aggressive attack' that was 'clearly showing its hatred toward our Islamic religion.'

Shiite cleric Sheik Abdul-Kareem al-Ghazi, in Iraq's second-largest city, Basra, said the pope's comments ran counter to the Christian faith.

'The pope and Vatican proved to be Zionists and that they are far from Christianity, which does not differ from Islam. Both religions call for forgiveness, love and brotherhood,' he said in a sermon delivered at the offices of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, where many people gather for religious services.

Al-Ghazi challenged Benedict or any other senior Vatican official to a debate, saying he would be willing to convert to Christianity if the pontiff managed to convince him of his views.


dailystar


I'll debate Al-Ghazi right here and now.

But he cannot bring a gun to the table.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:22 pm
RexRed
Quote:

Can you say, "individual liberty and freedom"?



Dunno about liberty, but you're right, the Iraqis are FREE.

How could i have been so wrong.

Wish you were free.
0 Replies
 
MarionT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:25 pm
They have neither liberty or freedom as long as the US Marine killers are in Iraq. Do you really think that we know how many atrocities have been committed on Iraqi men, women and children? Bushie would never allow us to look at that information.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:31 pm
Actually I only stand for blasphemy when it is the truth. Smile
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:35 pm
MarionT wrote:
They have neither liberty or freedom as long as the US Marine killers are in Iraq. Do you really think that we know how many atrocities have been committed on Iraqi men, women and children? Bushie would never allow us to look at that information.


Maybe that is because it doesn't exist except yo your fanciful but eroded logic. The US marines only generally fire back when they are fired upon. Unlike the terrorists who kill as many innocent people as possible just to make the daily news.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:35 pm
RexRed wrote:
Are you an idiot or just a brainwashed left wing nutcase?


The two are not mutually exclusive, RR.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:39 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Are you an idiot or just a brainwashed left wing nutcase?


The two are not mutually exclusive, RR.


Laughing
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:40 pm
I'll debate Sheik Abdul-Kareem al-Ghazi and convert him to true Islam.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:45 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Are you an idiot or just a brainwashed left wing nutcase?


The two are not mutually exclusive, RR.


Hey, Tico, where have you been hiding ?. This dude actually knows everything, he's not only an ardent Bush supporter, but he lives up his a$$. Laughing

Howz the smell, Tico ?

Tico and his ilk will send us a message saying ' We Get Used To It'
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:47 pm
Eph 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 05:03 pm
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2006/September/theworld_September522.xml&section=theworld
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 05:21 pm
Focus: Pope vs Prophet

Timesonline

"The Pope had been pleading for all religionists to renounce violence, and arguing that there should be no gulf between religion and reason, suggesting that Islam was not a religion of reason ' a theme he has emphasised in the past.

But his damaging words contain a startling lapse in historical accuracy, in the opinion of Muslim historians. It is commonly accepted that it was Islamic and Arabic culture that kept alive the philosophy of Aristotle through the Dark Ages and made the Catholic reconciliation of faith and reason possible in the work of Thomas Aquinas. One senior Anglican source said: 'If anything, Islam was the religion of reason ahead of Christianity. Mathematics and medical science were developed in the Islamic world. The clash between reason and medievalism has Muslims on the side of reason.'

Moderate Muslim opinion is also baffled by the insensitivity of the Pope. Adnane Mokrani, a Rome-based Muslim theologian, said of the Pope's quotation: 'To use polemical texts from seven centuries back is not a suitable starting point, given that the current situation between Christianity and Islam is different. -"

Page 1 || Page 2 || Page 3
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 05:43 pm
I might agree with that last bit. Kind of an odd speech given the circumstances, though I apprehend that he doesn't want any religion to reign by force, his text is a little muzzy at first read.

I used to follow Ratzinger in the sixties; he was and I guess still is, a theologian capable of intricate argument. I read the text as edited by Khoury yesterday. My eyes crossed by the end of it.

I gathered from some commentary on either this thread or somewhere else I read, that that was his intent - to protect the belief of various christians from the force of another religion. That makes sense, but as quoted it was a problematic way of saying it, not entirely clear - obfuscatory, even.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 06:08 pm
freedom4free wrote:
Focus: Pope vs Prophet

Timesonline

"The Pope had been pleading for all religionists to renounce violence, and arguing that there should be no gulf between religion and reason, suggesting that Islam was not a religion of reason ' a theme he has emphasised in the past.

But his damaging words contain a startling lapse in historical accuracy, in the opinion of Muslim historians. It is commonly accepted that it was Islamic and Arabic culture that kept alive the philosophy of Aristotle through the Dark Ages and made the Catholic reconciliation of faith and reason possible in the work of Thomas Aquinas. One senior Anglican source said: 'If anything, Islam was the religion of reason ahead of Christianity. Mathematics and medical science were developed in the Islamic world. The clash between reason and medievalism has Muslims on the side of reason.'

Moderate Muslim opinion is also baffled by the insensitivity of the Pope. Adnane Mokrani, a Rome-based Muslim theologian, said of the Pope's quotation: 'To use polemical texts from seven centuries back is not a suitable starting point, given that the current situation between Christianity and Islam is different. -"

Page 1 || Page 2 || Page 3


The Islam of today is certainly not the Islam of yesterday.

The pope is pointing out that the fundamental difference between the two Islams is "reason".
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 07:16 pm
Commet by Juan Cole.

Quote:
Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam

Pope Benedict's speech at Regensburg University, which mentioned Islam and jihad, has provoked a firestorm of controversy.

The speech is more complex and subtle than the press on it represents. But let me just signal that what is most troubling of all is that the Pope gets several things about Islam wrong, just as a matter of fact.

He notes that the text he discusses, a polemic against Islam by a Byzantine emperor, cites Qur'an 2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion." Benedict maintains that this is an early verse, when Muhammad was without power.

His allegation is incorrect. Surah 2 is a Medinan surah revealed when Muhammad was already established as the leader of the city of Yathrib (later known as Medina or "the city" of the Prophet). The pope imagines that a young Muhammad in Mecca before 622 (lacking power) permitted freedom of conscience, but later in life ordered that his religion be spread by the sword. But since Surah 2 is in fact from the Medina period when Muhammad was in power, that theory does not hold water.

In fact, the Qur'an at no point urges that religious faith be imposed on anyone by force. This is what it says about the religions:

' [2:62] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians-- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. '

See my comments On the Quran and peace.

The idea of holy war or jihad (which is about defending the community or at most about establishing rule by Muslims, not about imposing the faith on individuals by force) is also not a Quranic doctrine. The doctrine was elaborated much later, on the Umayyad-Byzantine frontier, long after the Prophet's death. In fact, in early Islam it was hard to join, and Christians who asked to become Muslim were routinely turned away. The tyrannical governor of Iraq, al-Hajjaj, was notorious for this rejection of applicants, because he got higher taxes on non-Muslims. Arab Muslims had conquered Iraq, which was then largely pagan, Zoroastrian, Christian and Jewish. But they weren't seeking converts and certainly weren't imposing their religion.

The pope was trying to make the point that coercion of conscience is incompatible with genuine, reasoned faith. He used Islam as a symbol of the coercive demand for unreasoned faith.

But he has been misled by the medieval polemic on which he depended.

In fact, the Quran also urges reasoned faith and also forbids coercion in religion. The only violence urged in the Quran is in self-defense of the Muslim community against the attempts of the pagan Meccans to wipe it out.

The pope says that in Islam, God is so transcendant that he is beyond reason and therefore cannot be expected to act reasonably. He contrasts this conception of God with that of the Gospel of John, where God is the Logos, the Reason inherent in the universe.

But there have been many schools of Islamic theology and philosophy. The Mu'tazilite school maintained exactly what the Pope is saying, that God must act in accordance with reason and the good as humans know them. The Mu'tazilite approach is still popular in Zaidism and in Twelver Shiism of the Iraqi and Iranian sort. The Ash'ari school, in contrast, insisted that God was beyond human reason and therefore could not be judged rationally. (I think the Pope would find that Tertullian and perhaps also John Calvin would be more sympathetic to this view within Christianity than he is).

As for the Quran, it constantly appeals to reason in knowing God, and in refuting idolatry and paganism, and asks, "do you not reason?" "do you not understand?" (a fala ta`qilun?)

Of course, Christianity itself has a long history of imposing coerced faith on people, including on pagans in the late Roman Empire, who were forcibly converted. And then there were the episodes of the Crusades.

Another irony is that reasoned, scholastic Christianity has an important heritage from Islam itself. In the 10th century, there was little scholasticism in Christian theology. The influence of Muslim thinkers such as Averroes and Ibn Rushd reemphasized the use of Aristotle and Plato in Christian theology. Indeed, there was a point where Christian theologians in Paris had divided into partisans of Averroes or of Ibn Rushd, and they conducted vigorous polemics with one another.

Finally, that Byzantine emperor that the Pope quoted, Manuel II? The Byzantines had been weakened by Latin predations during the fourth Crusade, so it was in a way Rome that had sought coercion first. And, he ended his days as a vassal of the Ottoman Empire.

The Pope was wrong on the facts. He should apologize to the Muslims and get better advisers on Christian-Muslim relations.

--
Posted by Juan to Informed Comment at 9/15/2006 06:24:00 AM
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 07:22 pm
xingu, thanks for text.
0 Replies
 
sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 07:27 pm
I think this pope knew full well his little addition to this complex speech would inflame. Nevertheless, he has brought up the subject of how the Islam religion wishes to convert via the sword through, no less, words spoken by the emperor in the 14th century.

The subject is open, again, for discussion of how the Roman Catholic church didn't really bother to "convert" via the sword during the first six centuries. They just murdered everybody who disagreed with them, calling them "heretics." Speak of violence.
0 Replies
 
 

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