Is Marriage a matter of conscience?

The piece of paper, to me, is partly legal protection, as far as assests or having someone step in and take over the part of wife or husband, and all the benefits that come with the marriage.

It's an external sign of an internal commitment.

BTW Hep....I don't know if you have children or a complicated financial situation, but you can do a "do it yourself divorce", at least in Florida, if there're no kids, and both of you agree as to the splitting of the marital assest.

That's what I did.
Picked up the form you can find in any office supply store, filled it out, showed the ex what I did.

He and I were both in agreement so we both signed off on it.
Can't remember exactly what then...I'm pretty sure I took it down to the courthouse, then you get a date for both of you to come back in front of the judge.

He just looked at what I filled out, asked if we were in agreement, signed off on it himself, then the clerk took the papers and us down to some office where we got copies, and that was that.

It doesn't even have to be that you have nothing. We bought a house in Texas, and were in the middle of building one in Fla....

I never wanted to see Fla again and wanted the Tx house, he wanted the Fla one....so that's the way we wrote it.

What a sucker he was over that!

Hey, why not? Don't punish yourself. Love never comes at the opportune times anyway, does it? The relationship with your husband is over, you don't seem to choked up about it...the only thing he should be to you is an item on a to-do list, like switching a bank account or something.

There are only 2 things that make it binding. A legal agreement, and then the words and promises between you. If your words and promises happen to be empty or lies, that's just how it is.

You should look into Chai's suggestion. If you two can agree how to split things up between the two of you, you'll probably both be better off than splitting it off between the four of you (2 of you plus 2 lawyers).

If you view marriage as the equivalent of a rental contract, then there's nothing stopping you from seeing other men just as there is nothing stopping you from entering into other rental contracts. If that's the case, I fail to see the dilemma here.

On the other hand, if you are still hesitant, then it's probably because you don't think a marriage contract is the equivalent of a rental contract. The question, then, is: what's so special about the marital relationship?

If you're asking for permission to cheat on your husband, I don't think that's within our power to give. If it's immoral to see other men while you are still married, then it would be immoral regardless of the approval that others might offer to you. If, in contrast, you don't think it would be cheating to see some other man, then I don't understand why you might feel conflicted.

I'll muse.

Marriage is a contract. I have no idea if it was at first a religious episode or a legal one relative to property. My guess is on the legal one relative to property, but it's only a guess. Even if it was religious first, I think the real mechanics are similar/intertwined.

It can be a religious contract and a separate civil one, as in, say, Italy, where people are married in church and also go and get a quick civil ceremony. In the US, it is often a dual ceremony, officiated by a religious person. Or, just a visit to a city window. Those city window visits don't necessarily mean less to the individuals, though people assume that.

My own view is that marriage is an agreement between two people, however long or short it lasts, before it is an agreement ratified by a religion or a state. Thus, it seems simple to me, if the two people agree it's over, it's over. Although, for the sake of financial distribution and child care decisions that are subject to a legal system... then it's not over until the legal bell rings, or wrings.

I've never lived in a state where adultery (or dating!) changed the nature of a divorce decree, so I can't speak to that. I have no idea how Florida works.

To me, if you are separated, you're separated - and best officially, re accounting and child care matters. Given money and children are not at issue, and you agree you're separated, I think you are also separated as far as being interested in new people... since, remember, I thought the agreement was by the two people in the first place.

Diving into being interested in new people is a subject for argument, re the wisdom. I usually subscribe to the wait point of view, but I have enough friends who are long time happy having not done the waiting thing that my view is, simply, watch your step.

I don't say that every relationship you have has to be love for life. People get together for comfort, sustenance, thrills, among other reasons
Just that.. people can be vulnerable after what they thought was love hasn't worked out. Well, people can be vulnerable, period.

I've known several folks who divorced as simply as possible, filling out the forms mutually and filing with help of a paralegal. Depends on circumstances, I presume.

I see no point in it really. But on the other hand I'm not going to become a floozy either and just sleep with anything that has two legs and a ding dong. I still take commitment serious. I don't know that I could ever see sex as something to be taken lightly and just done at random with random people. (Not saying anyone here does or has implied they do.) That's just how I feel about it. I won't say I've never done it. But I can say that I can't remember a time I didn't regret it on some level when I did.

hephzibah wrote:

I see no point in it really. But on the other hand I'm not going to become a floozy either and just sleep with anything that has two legs and a ding dong. I still take commitment serious. I don't know that I could ever see sex as something to be taken lightly and just done at random with random people. (Not saying anyone here does or has implied they do.) That's just how I feel about it. I won't say I've never done it. But I can say that I can't remember a time I didn't regret it on some level when I did.

On the point of marriage ~~ I think vows and public statements of commitment are mostly ceremonial and provide the couple with a sense of connection and an intention of providing each other with lifelong support. These vows have come from religious traditions, but civil ceremonies or vows made privately between two individuals can be just as empowering as a religious ceremony in providing that connection. A marriage certificate is not required to achieve a lifelong connection to one's chosen partner.

On the other hand, marriage has always inferred certain rights and carries some opportunities that apply only to married couples. This is where the marriage certificate comes into play (and where your pending divorce comes into play). There will be a reason for people to marry as long as marriage carries legal benefits to those who would otherwise be denied them. I would be perfectly happy to see the rights of marriage decoupled from the marriage ceremony, establishing civil unions for all couples wishing to register their relationship with the State. Commitment ceremonies could then be as religious, public, private, or non-existent as the couple chooses.

In some ways I agree with your friend that your upcoming divorce has little to do with the commitment/emotional/spiritual side of your marriage. The piece of paper associated with a legal separation and divorce have as much weight with that side of the marriage as you give to it. If you feel that you are married until such time as the State says you are no longer married then that's the way you should proceed. If you feel that your marriage was over once the vows were irreparably broken, then proceed accordingly.

Noddy gives excellent advice, as usual, with respect to rebound relationships. Particularly given what you've been through in the past year.

hep - just a word of advice from one who's been there. It's hard to imagine I lost so much in such a short amount of time.

The non-material losses took years for me to get over, and not what I'm going to address here. Let all that rest in peace.

Re: your material losses.....Believe me, the fact I came out of it at the time with a house would not have looked like much to you at the time...it sure didn't look that way to some people. I knew it was a blessing whose day at not come. At the time it was one more bill to pay, for a place that was a thousand miles from where I lived for a couple more years.

I married him, well, not late exactly, but I was 30 or 31, so I had a good start on a long term savings plan....that was gone in the less than 2 years we were together. The thing that was so sick was when we would fight and I would bring up how this money I had was totally gone, AND we had what I considered huge debt (because of him), he would look me straight in the eye and tell me...."You never had that much when we got married" Shocked , and I could see he really believed that, and got me to the point I was questioning my own knowledge.

The reason I'm telling you about this is to share that the best thing you can begin to do for yourself is to start to let go of those emotions about loosing that stuff. It takes time, but surprisingly, at least for me, not as much time as I feared.

I got tired of mourning what I had lost, mostly because when I did so it meant I had to think of someone who was no longer a part of my life. When I got it straight in my head that I was starting from where I was at that moment....square one, ground zero, right now....that was when things began to turn around.

I think I know exactly how you feel right now, cheated and tricked and left holding the bag, with nothing to show for that time....You know what? That's all totally true! That smiley is there to show you...."Yeah? So? Now what?"

I realized....

I'm broke!

I was screwed!

It's all gone!

I'M FREE!!!!!!!

Ya know?

I have definitely asked myself this very question. When I married at 23 I believed that marriage was a lifetime committment between two people. I looked at it as more of a spiritual, and emotional committment. I always joked with my ex that I didn't marry him for his money( him straight out of college, no job, me making the down payment on our first home) I never batted an eye about working 40+ hours a week while he had no income for 2 years of our marriage.
I think in the long run our marriage was just a piece of paper to him, it was an emotional, loving committment for me. This is why I was loyal and faithful and he felt it OK to lie and become unfaithful. I find it curious though that the timing of his leaving was shortly after he got a huge promotion and salary increase. So while I got the house to continue to raise the kids in he got to no longer support me financially.
I'm pretty much in the same state as you are if I understand this correctly. I truely don't see myself marrying again. I do however know that I'm capable of being in a committed relationship. So although I'm not looking for a husband I am searching for that special someone to share my life experiences with in the long run.

I want it over and done with as simply and quickly as possible. I've even toyed with the idea at times of sleeping with someone purely on the ideal that maybe... just maybe if I did I could finally disconnect from him completely

JB, this might sound like a completely naive question, but what exactly are the "legal" benefits of getting married?

...what exactly are the "legal" benefits of getting married?

hephzibah wrote:

...what exactly are the "legal" benefits of getting married?

In 1997, the General Accounting Office figured there were about 1,049 federal statutes that granted some kind of right or benefit based upon marital status: Link (.pdf). By 2004, that number had increased to around 1,138: Link (.pdf).

That only accounts for federal benefits. Most issues regarding families and children are matters of state law, so the number of statutes that grant rights and benefits based upon marital status is far larger than 1,138.

I want it over and done with as simply and quickly as possible. I've even toyed with the idea at times of sleeping with someone purely on the ideal that maybe... just maybe if I did I could finally disconnect from him completely. Paper or no paper involved. It's over because I'm not "waiting" for him anymore. I'm not "waiting" for a signed piece of paper to feel that I could be with someone else. To feel like I can give myself to someone else. My life continuing (speaking socially) is not dependant on if or when "he" says it's over legally. As sick as I'm sure that logic sounds, does it make any sort of sense at all? I honestly think sometimes that is really what is holding me up from realizing:

I'm broke!

I was screwed!

It's all gone!

I'M FREE!!!!!!!

So....

hephzibah wrote:

I want it over and done with as simply and quickly as possible. I've even toyed with the idea at times of sleeping with someone purely on the ideal that maybe... just maybe if I did I could finally disconnect from him completely. Paper or no paper involved. It's over because I'm not "waiting" for him anymore. I'm not "waiting" for a signed piece of paper to feel that I could be with someone else. To feel like I can give myself to someone else. My life continuing (speaking socially) is not dependant on if or when "he" says it's over legally. As sick as I'm sure that logic sounds, does it make any sort of sense at all? I honestly think sometimes that is really what is holding me up from realizing:

I'm broke!

I was screwed!

It's all gone!

I'M FREE!!!!!!!

So....

Sure it makes sense, and it doesn't sound sick in the least. It won't work, but I wouldn't call it sick. What I do find disturbing is the idea that you want to give yourself to someone again. I'm hoping that you meant 'give of yourself' again. If there is any single lesson that I hope you never forget from your recent experience, it is to keep enough sense of yourself in any future relationships that you don't try to become someone else's vision of you.