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Is Marriage a matter of conscience?

 
 
Treya
 
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:19 pm
Ok, I had an interesting conversation with a friend the other day. We were talking about marriage (not to each other of course) and he said that technically I am divorced because I am over 1000 miles away from the one I married, he doesn't give a rats arse about me or what I do obviously, and neither of us love each other anymore... Now there's just a piece of paper between us, which technically is not a "marriage"

Hmmmm... It all sounds well and good. Even makes a bit of sense actually. Yet that raises another question for me then... What's the point of marriage if all it boils down to is a piece of paper signed by a judge? That much doesn't make sense to me. What do you all think? Is marriage a matter of conscience? A commitment made by two people to each other that really doesn't mean anything unless the two actually follow through with that commitment?

Of course I also have a slight doubt in some of the things he says as I think his ulterior motive here is to sleep with me... LOL

Any takers here?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 3,661 • Replies: 51
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:21 pm
To sleep with you? No. ;-)

I think it's kind of the same thing as what boomer has talked about re: "mother" as a verb. She is awaiting a slip of paper to confirm that she is in fact Mo's mother -- but of course she is. She's been mothering him for more than three years.

I think "marriage" can be a verb, too.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:22 pm
Quote:
I think his ulterior motive here is to sleep with me... LOL

Any takers here?


I am sure Kicky and Slappy will be along to answer that question in no time.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:30 pm
LOL OMG too friggin funny! I SOOO did not mean it like that! Aaaaah well... a little prodding is always fun... hehe
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:35 pm
hephzibah wrote:
LOL OMG too friggin funny! I SOOO did not mean it like that! Aaaaah well... a little prodding is always fun... hehe

Perhaps the "ulterior motive" is only a response to subliminal messages. :wink:
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:48 pm
LOL cute... very cute!
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 03:39 pm
He told you that you're "technically divorced" because you're over 1000 miles apart and he doesn't care about you? What a crock! What would he call it if you were only 50 miles separated, not in love, and didn't care about each other? Or, what if you were still living together, but not in love and didn't care about each other?

Sound like a line to me, and not a very good one at that!

I'll get back to you with my thoughts on the point of marriage when I have more time. For now, I think you're right to be suspicious of his motives.
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 03:44 pm
So you're not really married and you're free to hop into bed with him?

Perhaps you have grounds for an annulment, but this doesn't mean you must hop into bed with him.

Beware of rebound romances.
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 04:05 pm
Marraige started off a a religious ceremony. Governments later adopted it. Technically, our Constitution provides for the separation of church and state and should not be involved in marraige at all.
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 04:12 pm
NickFun wrote:
Marraige started off a a religious ceremony. Governments later adopted it. Technically, our Constitution provides for the separation of church and state and should not be involved in marraige at all.
Well, no, technically it's not in the Constitution but those points are quibbled over on the Politics and Religion threads.

I agree with your general premise that the piece of paper revolves around a civil union. I also think the 'point of marriage' revolves around religious symbolism as a testament to commitment. Does it take a piece of paper to dissolve a marriage? Only if there was a piece of paper that created it to begin with.
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 04:56 pm
A stock certificate for a hundred million dollars is also a piece of paper. But I doubt anyone is going to throw it away.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 06:41 am
JPB wrote:
He told you that you're "technically divorced" because you're over 1000 miles apart and he doesn't care about you? What a crock! What would he call it if you were only 50 miles separated, not in love, and didn't care about each other? Or, what if you were still living together, but not in love and didn't care about each other?

Sound like a line to me, and not a very good one at that!

I'll get back to you with my thoughts on the point of marriage when I have more time. For now, I think you're right to be suspicious of his motives.


LOL yeah, I know that's a line... *sigh* Guys are relentless sometimes. Rolling Eyes However, it did get me thinking about a few things. Having always held a religious view of marriage I have always imagined it was more than just a piece of paper. More than just a few vows the two made to each other. It was a hmmm... a spiritual commitment as well as physical. Kind of a two sided thing I guess. So if the spiritual and emotional side died you were still committed, even by a little piece of paper, because of the law. Though I must say this much for this guy... He did give me a brilliant idea on how to speed up the divorce process, and it might even cost a little less than going the normal route! Whooo hooo!

Noddy24 wrote:
So you're not really married and you're free to hop into bed with him?

Perhaps you have grounds for an annulment, but this doesn't mean you must hop into bed with him.

Beware of rebound romances.


LOL Noddy. At least he's strait forward. hehehe... Seriously though. Yeah... rebound sucks. That's exactly why I'm in the position I am right now. I was a rebound from his first marriage which wasn't "technically" over for the first month or so we dated, unbeknownst to me. As a matter a fact when I found out about it I think he gave me a similar line and I bought it hook, line, and sinker... Rolling Eyes

NickFun wrote:
Marraige started off a a religious ceremony. Governments later adopted it. Technically, our Constitution provides for the separation of church and state and should not be involved in marraige at all.


Hmmmm.... interesting. How long ago was that? Just curious. I guess I'm just curious how far the commitment goes here concerning being married. A lot of my thinking in general has changed because of my failed marriage. My entire view on relationships in general has changed actually. Not trying to be negative at all here, I'm just curious where you draw the line? Who says what's right and what's wrong? If it's not a spiritual as well as physical commitment between two people, well then what is it? And what's the point of it? Is it just a matter of conscience between the two people involved? So if one person's consciences concerning their marriage strays or is withdrawn then is the other person still obligated to fulfill their end of the commitment?
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 08:21 am
hephzibah,

You're married. Marraige is a legal contract. It does not mean you live together, or are in love, or have a spiritual connection, or that you plan to spend your lives together...although those are, of course, the assumptions.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 11:35 am
stuh505 wrote:
hephzibah,

You're married. Marraige is a legal contract. It does not mean you live together, or are in love, or have a spiritual connection, or that you plan to spend your lives together...although those are, of course, the assumptions.


Ok, fair enough. I like your strait-forwardness here... Thank you. But what makes marriage different than any other contract? If I sign a 12 month lease on an apartment and end up only being able to stay eight months, I am obligated then to pay the deemed amount for breaking that contract, correct? Yet I am still free. If I moved out I moved out. If I break my lease on my apartment I am not restricted from renting another somewhere else just because I broke a lease, right? So, exactly what is a marriage contract binding then if it's not love, spiritual connection, planning to live your lives together? I know this probably sounds quite silly, but I need ask because I want to understand.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 12:44 pm
A question -- why aren't you divorced yet? Is that in process?

There are a bunch of levels to this question. One is, I think, whether it would be OK for you to sleep with another guy even though you're still technically married. (Even if you don't want to sleep with this particular guy.) I think yes, as a concept, because you're separated and your husband knows that things are over and all that's left is the technicalities of getting a divorce. (Right?)

This is very different from, for example, being married and being an equal distance away but you're there to visit family, or something, and the husband thinks that you're coming back and that you're still happily married.

Distance per se has nothing in particular to do with it. A mutual recognition that the marriage is over does.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 01:30 pm
hephzibah wrote:
stuh505 wrote:
hephzibah,

You're married. Marraige is a legal contract. It does not mean you live together, or are in love, or have a spiritual connection, or that you plan to spend your lives together...although those are, of course, the assumptions.


Ok, fair enough. I like your strait-forwardness here... Thank you. But what makes marriage different than any other contract? If I sign a 12 month lease on an apartment and end up only being able to stay eight months, I am obligated then to pay the deemed amount for breaking that contract, correct? Yet I am still free. If I moved out I moved out. If I break my lease on my apartment I am not restricted from renting another somewhere else just because I broke a lease, right? So, exactly what is a marriage contract binding then if it's not love, spiritual connection, planning to live your lives together? I know this probably sounds quite silly, but I need ask because I want to understand.


You can terminate a marriage contract just as you can a rental contract though. The termination is called a divorce (or in some cases, an annulment...).

And while you can rent multiple apartments at a time the laws in this country prohibit multiple marriages (at the same time).

A marriage contract isn't about love or spiritual connection. It's about estates (inheritance rights, etc..). People generally enter a marriage contract because they love someone and want to ensure both of their interests are protected should one of them die but there is nothing in the (civil) marriage contract that specifies a requirement for love or connections.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 02:02 pm
sozobe wrote:
A question -- why aren't you divorced yet? Is that in process?

There are a bunch of levels to this question. One is, I think, whether it would be OK for you to sleep with another guy even though you're still technically married. (Even if you don't want to sleep with this particular guy.) I think yes, as a concept, because you're separated and your husband knows that things are over and all that's left is the technicalities of getting a divorce. (Right?)

This is very different from, for example, being married and being an equal distance away but you're there to visit family, or something, and the husband thinks that you're coming back and that you're still happily married.

Distance per se has nothing in particular to do with it. A mutual recognition that the marriage is over does.


Hey sozobe. Smile I'm not divorced yet, nor is it in process, because I moved to FL so I cannot file until Dec. when I have been a resident for six months. Mr. Man is refusing to file because apparently he does not want to pay a penny towards the divorce. I, out of the kindness of my everloving heart Razz, have offered more than once to pay for half if he would just FILE. All requests have been ignored. *sigh* So, unless this other brilliant idea pans out I will be married until somewhere around next March or April.

Regarding the other things said... ok all good points that I do understand. I wouldn't even really consider dating someone actually until I was officially divorced, well... I think... LOL and in order to sleep with anyone I would have to at least be dating them... for a while... not like two days. Though the occasional fling has sounded good at times... I don't know though... Seems a bit risky now-a-days personally speaking...

So anyway, I guess my next question then is while I understand that marriage is a contract of sorts, and there are even actual marriage contracts, what actually makes it binding if we put aside the material things such as possesions and the sorts? What makes it more than just empty words and promises?
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 02:17 pm
The piece of paper, to me, is partly legal protection, as far as assests or having someone step in and take over the part of wife or husband, and all the benefits that come with the marriage.

It's an external sign of an internal commitment.

BTW Hep....I don't know if you have children or a complicated financial situation, but you can do a "do it yourself divorce", at least in Florida, if there're no kids, and both of you agree as to the splitting of the marital assest.

That's what I did.
Picked up the form you can find in any office supply store, filled it out, showed the ex what I did.

He and I were both in agreement so we both signed off on it.
Can't remember exactly what then...I'm pretty sure I took it down to the courthouse, then you get a date for both of you to come back in front of the judge.

He just looked at what I filled out, asked if we were in agreement, signed off on it himself, then the clerk took the papers and us down to some office where we got copies, and that was that.

It doesn't even have to be that you have nothing. We bought a house in Texas, and were in the middle of building one in Fla....

I never wanted to see Fla again and wanted the Tx house, he wanted the Fla one....so that's the way we wrote it.

What a sucker he was over that! Laughing
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 03:56 pm
Quote:
I wouldn't even really consider dating someone actually until I was officially divorced, well... I think... LOL and in order to sleep with anyone I would have to at least be dating them... for a while... not like two days. Though the occasional fling has sounded good at times... I don't know though... Seems a bit risky now-a-days personally speaking...


Hey, why not? Don't punish yourself. Love never comes at the opportune times anyway, does it? The relationship with your husband is over, you don't seem to choked up about it...the only thing he should be to you is an item on a to-do list, like switching a bank account or something.

Quote:

So anyway, I guess my next question then is while I understand that marriage is a contract of sorts, and there are even actual marriage contracts, what actually makes it binding if we put aside the material things such as possesions and the sorts? What makes it more than just empty words and promises?


There are only 2 things that make it binding. A legal agreement, and then the words and promises between you. If your words and promises happen to be empty or lies, that's just how it is.

You should look into Chai's suggestion. If you two can agree how to split things up between the two of you, you'll probably both be better off than splitting it off between the four of you (2 of you plus 2 lawyers).
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 03:57 pm
hephzibah wrote:
But what makes marriage different than any other contract? If I sign a 12 month lease on an apartment and end up only being able to stay eight months, I am obligated then to pay the deemed amount for breaking that contract, correct? Yet I am still free. If I moved out I moved out. If I break my lease on my apartment I am not restricted from renting another somewhere else just because I broke a lease, right? So, exactly what is a marriage contract binding then if it's not love, spiritual connection, planning to live your lives together? I know this probably sounds quite silly, but I need ask because I want to understand.

If you view marriage as the equivalent of a rental contract, then there's nothing stopping you from seeing other men just as there is nothing stopping you from entering into other rental contracts. If that's the case, I fail to see the dilemma here.

On the other hand, if you are still hesitant, then it's probably because you don't think a marriage contract is the equivalent of a rental contract. The question, then, is: what's so special about the marital relationship?

If you're asking for permission to cheat on your husband, I don't think that's within our power to give. If it's immoral to see other men while you are still married, then it would be immoral regardless of the approval that others might offer to you. If, in contrast, you don't think it would be cheating to see some other man, then I don't understand why you might feel conflicted.
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