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historicity of Jesus

 
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Aug, 2006 09:58 pm
Setanta wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Setanta wrote:

By the way, not only was Charles Darwin not an atheist, he was educated to be a member of the clery, and had intended to enter the clergy of the estalished church of England before he learned of the opportunity to sail aboard Beagle.


According to Charles, he was an atheist like his father. Robert Darwin decided to send Charles off to Cambridge University for a degree in theology, after which he could purchase for him a "living" in an Anglican country church. There he could be a sportsman, a scholar, or an amateur naturalist, supported by a government stipend for life. Charles dutifully signed onto the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England and entered Cambridge. He surely saw the hypocrisy in an atheist father's financing his son's preparation to be a minister of the gospel.

It was then that the opportunity to sail aboard the Beagle presented itself.


Do you care to provide a source for this? I've read Darwin's letter to his father in which he discusses his future prospects, including Beagle, and his father's reply. In short, if you don't provide a source, and one free of anti-evolution bias, i don't believe a word of this statement from authority. Now, of course, you can say the same for what i've written--but you have confirmed already that you understand that Darwin was educated for the clergy.

Trot out your Christian web site, Intrepid, and let's play.



Make of it as you will. Not that it matters either way. He did leave his clergy training. I am not about to get into game playing with you. And,; you are right....you have not provided a link of your own.
source
0 Replies
 
Iasion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 12:32 am
Greetings,

Intrepid wrote:

Most sources place the book of James in that 45 - 50 AD period. Some sources have placed it a bit later.


Only faithful believers and church authorities date James to this early period.
Most modern NT scholars, however, date it rather later.

Intrepid wrote:
Your source, Peter Kirby who is a student in California challenges these dates.


Hmmm...
My source is not a student from California.
Have you really never seen Peter Kirby's site before?
It is a summary of the current state of scholarship.
Peter Kirby links and quotes an overview of the field.

Intrepid wrote:
Do you have any other verifiable source to back him up?


I gave two already : Kummel and Schnelle - did you check them yet?

And
if you actually check Kirby's site, you will find the details of others who argue for later dates :

"For these reasons, many recent interpreters assign James to the period A.D. 90-100."
New American Bible,
Epistle of James, Introduction

"that it is a work of the second century, though probably of its early years."
The Epistle of James,
Edgar Goodspeed.

And another well-known commentary agrees :
"the most widley held view today is that a Christian versed in both Hellenism and Judaism wrote the letter under the name of James of Jerusalem in the later part of the 1st C. AD"
Thomas W. Leahy
The Epistle of James,
The New Jerome Bible Commentary.

The famous Raymond Brown also argues James is late (no references here just now.)


Of course,
some church authorities and faithful believers argue for the early date of the book because they believe the legends IN the books :
e.g. Catholic Encyclopedia :
"The Epistle was probably written about A.D. 47. "


But this faithful belief is not supported by the evidence.


Iasion
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 09:18 am
Since when has evidence ever bothered a believer?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 09:36 am
Intrepid's link takes one to a page maintained by "The Parent Company," and also proudly displays the logo of the Creation Science Research Center (Holy Oxymoron, Batman!). The "About Us" link for "The Parent Company" describes the organization as follows:

Quote:
o build a Biblical Framework for all of education based on God's word and God's relationship with man -- not man's relationship to man (Biblically based, not secular knowledge with scripture added).

To establish eternal values into our children so that they understand knowledge and gain wisdom in the light of eternity as they stand before God, not in earthly terms such as money, career or things.

To train parents "How to train their children in the Way," so as to establish them in the faith and teach them to fulfill the will of God.

To create families that serve the Lord together and to teach them the importance of putting God first in all things so they may reach out to them and fulfill the great commission.

To provide multimedia training materials with written manuals and study guides that accomplish these goals and objectives so that we may be sure that what we have taught is duplicable in them and that each family can therefore do the will of God and teach others to do the same.

To prepare children to stand up for their faith even in the public schools as an outreach to others.

To instill in parents the fervent desire to serve God and to pass their faith on to the next generation by preparing their children to live daily for our Lord.

To prepare each of us as parents and children to stand before God, without spot and blameless, as we step into eternity and are judged for our very words and deeds.
Our Desire

To develop a parents ministry that truly prepares parents to deal with the issues and needs of their children and that will strengthen their family as together we do the will of God.

To establish a means of reaching parents and helping them to reach all of the other Christian families in all of our churches and then to train them, thereby teaching them to reach out to others for our Lord.

To take our completed program that builds a Biblical Framework for all of education as an alternative to the public schools and then develop a proper and complete education for the Christian school and home.

To utilize the technology of the internet, television and direct broadcast satellite to take our educational programs to the world in order to fulfill the great commission.
Our Plan

To develop a true relationship with you and your family that will accomplish these goals and fulfill the Lord's command to us to go, reach and teach others.

To further develop our educational program as a vehicle that truly reaches out to parents and children, teaching them to reach out again to others.

To establish a worldwide educational training ministry to parents and children, to the honor and glory of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Therefore, this site is untrustworthy as an unbiased source for the life of Charles Darwin.

********************************************

It also helps to view the exact material, which Intrepid has knowingly misrepresented here:

Charles Darwin's Hidden Agenda for Science wrote:
The standard, long held view of the connection between Darwin's religion and his theory is wrong. Supposedly he was a Christian who studied at Cambridge to become a minister. But then, during his voyage around the world on the Beagle, the scientific facts persuaded him to believe in evolution and give up his Christian faith. However, an examination of the various influences upon the youthful Charles Darwin reveals an entirely different story.

Family Background.

Charles' grandfather, Erasmus, a successful and wealthy physician in the 18th century, wrote the book, Zoonomia (Laws of Life), which portrays a pantheistic world in which all life and species evolved. Erasmus' close friend, industrialist Josiah Wedgwood I, embraced Unitarian theology. Erasmus' son and Charles' father, Robert Darwin, also a wealthy physician, probably an atheist, married Susannah Wedgwood. Other marriage ties between the two families followed. Not surprisingly, Darwin males generally were freethinkers, following the Unitarian, pantheistic and atheistic views of their principal sires.

The Son, His Father and His Wife.

Charles Darwin, was born in 1809. His dominant, atheistic father, Robert, advised him to conceal his unorthodox beliefs from his wife. Should he predecease her this would spare her from unnecessary grief because of her spouse's dying an unbeliever. Charles never spoke publicly about his religious views. However, before he married Emma Wedgwood in 1839 he told her about his rejection of Christian faith. Though probably not herself evangelical, she was nevertheless pious, and the rather gross unbelief of her husband was painful to her. But during his life and even after his death she protected his reputation by concealing his unbelief.

Charles' Education

Robert Darwin sent his son off to Edinburgh University in 1825. The sixteen-year-old boy found himself in a university community which was in a continual ferment of radicalism of all sorts advanced by dissenters from the Anglican church, freethinkers, anti-Christians and atheists, materialists and evolutionists. Evolution was in the air. Most influential in this phase of Charles Darwin's life was Robert Grant, a dozen years his senior. Holding the medical degree from Edinburgh, he had made himself the leading British authority in invertebrate zoology. Grant was an avowed atheist, and evolutionist, and also a social and political radical. On zoological field trips with Grant young Charles listened to his persuasive private lecturing but kept his own counsel. Deeply interested in biological science, Charles abhorred medicine The sight of blood sickened him. After two years he returned home without a degree.

Disappointed, father Robert Darwin decided to send him off to Cambridge University for a degree in theology, after which he could purchase for him a "living" in an Anglican country church. There he could be a sportsman, a scholar, or an amateur naturalist, supported by a government stipend for life. Charles dutifully signed onto the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England and entered Cambridge. He surely saw the hypocrisy in an atheist father's financing his son's preparation to be a minister of the gospel.


1. There is a ludicrous contention in the very first paragraph that the voyage of Beagle lead Darwing to "believe in evolution and give up his Christian faith." This laughably specious for a variety of reasons: Darwin cannot be said to have abandoned his faith except very slowly, and as he said himself: "disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress." That is not consistent with the claims of this article. Charles took the position on board Beagle at the insistence of his unlce, the younger Josiah Wedgewood--his own father was then urging him to enter the clergy. Livings in the Church of England were never available for "purchase," as was the case with commissions in the Army. Many were in the gift of influential men, but they were not bought and sold. He could not have been convinced to believe a theory (evolution) which had not yet been articulated, and would not be articulated for years to come. Finally, how could he give up his Christian faith if, as later paragraphs suggest, he never had a Christian faith.

2. The statement that Zoonomia portrays a pantheistic world is unwarranted--and as with all of this tripe which Intrepid has dredged up, it is not supported by a single citation of anyone's text, whether it is the text of Erasumus Darwin's work, or a reputable biographer. The author of this horseshit is making a series of statements from authority, and supplies absolutely no evidence to back up his statements from any reputable source.

3. The author of this smear job first writes: Erasmus' son and Charles' father, Robert Darwin, also a wealthy physician, probably an atheist, married Susannah Wedgwood. (emphasis added)--this after noting that Wedgewood's father was a Unitarian (Oh Horrors ! ! !). In the second succeeding sentence, the author (unnamed) of this hatchet job writes: Not surprisingly, Darwin males generally were freethinkers, following the Unitarian, pantheistic and atheistic views of their principal sires.--so Darwin and his family go from "probably atheist" to "Unitarian, pantheistic and atheistic" in just two short sentences.

4. This slanderer then proceeds to make a series of unsupported claims about Darwin and his relationship to his wife. Having suggested that Robert Darwin were probably atheist (without providing a shred of evidence, beyond comdenming Josiah Wedgewood for being Unitarian--Oh the Horror, Oh the Humanity! ! !), the author proceeds to do a hack job on Darwin's relationship with his wife on the basis that having made the suggestion has now demonstrated that Darwin were an atheist.

*************************************************

Darwin Biography at Darwin-literature-dot-com,

Wikipedia wrote:
Darwin became particularly enthused by the writings of William Paley, including the argument of divine design in nature. In his finals in January 1831, he performed well in theology and, having scraped through in classics, mathematics and physics, came tenth out of a pass list of 178. (Note that William Paley was famous for his 1802 articulation of the "watchmaker analogy.")


The Wikipedia article on Charles Darwin.

Quote:
and as I did not then in the least doubt the strict and literal truth of every word in the Bible, I soon persuaded myself that our Creed must be fully accepted.


From Darwin's manuscript autobiography, left for his children and published by his son.

At the most one could say that Darwin became a passive agnostic. That in no way authorizes the implication of "Aussie Angel's" snear which suggested that he were an atheist.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 09:58 am
Intrepid wrote:
I am not about to get into game playing with you.


A final note: You and your partners in crime, Snood and MOAN, have frequently followed me about from thread to thread to make dull-witted, ill-worded and childish attacks. You very frequently jump into a thread to respond to something i've written which was not addressed to you--and this exchange is a perfect example. There's absolutely no reason why a member should not respond to any post he or she sees--but when you do so, and then claim that you aren't going to get into game playing, and espeically with your history of stalking me and Dok and others in the atttempt to play Christian White Knight--if makes your claim that you are not about to get into game playing laughable.

In short, you are a liar.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 10:58 am
Setanta wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
I am not about to get into game playing with you.


A final note: You and your partners in crime, Snood and MOAN, have frequently followed me about from thread to thread to make dull-witted, ill-worded and childish attacks. You very frequently jump into a thread to respond to something i've written which was not addressed to you--and this exchange is a perfect example. There's absolutely no reason why a member should not respond to any post he or she sees--but when you do so, and then claim that you aren't going to get into game playing, and espeically with your history of stalking me and Dok and others in the atttempt to play Christian White Knight--if makes your claim that you are not about to get into game playing laughable.

In short, you are a liar.


Listen, you raggedy excuse for a human being...
I have not written a single word directed your way since you so gracefully informed me that you wouldn't give a damn if I fell off the planet earth. That was weeks ago. TFor you to say I'm "following you around" makes me believe your senile dementia is really taking hold. Is your colostomy bag backing up and causing some septic poisoning in your already perverted brain or something.

I couldn't give less of a shyt what you think or say about anything, and I had ceased answering anything you say to, or about me, until now, when you include my name trying to make another of your big mouthed snotty stupid points.

You showed up on a thread that I started to tell my friends at A2K where the Army was sending me, to share some useless info I guess you thought relevant about a relative of yours.

I think you're a miserable old wretched loser of a jealous smallminded pig - and if you didn't direct any of your girlish attacks at me, I wouldn't reciprocate.

Now, having gotten a reply out of me, I'm sure you'll haul your enormous ass straight to the moderators to "report" that you were insulted, because that's just the kind of backstabbing punk you are. But even if I get banned, no one should have to take your bigmouthed BS, and I am proud to be the one to tell you so.
0 Replies
 
Dizzy Delicious
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 03:52 pm
Quote:
and if you didn't direct any of your girlish attacks at me, I wouldn't reciprocate.


Who'd want to waste their "girlish" charm on a yo-yo like you?
Is someone desperate?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 05:20 pm
Dizzy Delicious wrote:
Quote:
and if you didn't direct any of your girlish attacks at me, I wouldn't reciprocate.


Who'd want to waste their "girlish" charm on a yo-yo like you?
Is someone desperate?


Dabble in what you know, Dizzy. I have no beef with you.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 06:06 pm
Somebody lemme know if this thread starts to wander back toward its topic OK?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 06:39 am
Yes, it would be interesting if the thread actually were on topic. In regard to that, however, one is obliged, at least grudgingly, to congratulate the religionists on derailing a topic which they don't wish to have discussed.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 07:24 am
If you want to stay on topic and not derail into personal stuff, then don't start anything, yuh goofy dumbass.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 07:27 am
It's good to know that you're not following me around (insert appropriate rolly-eyed emoticon here). Intrepid started playing games, doing just what you are doing--jumping in to comment when i hadn't addressed him. So i pointed out that he is playing a game, and that he, and you, have long played this game. You show up to comment, playing the game yourself, and want to claim you don't play it. But it just makes you look ridiculous, and hateful, a real measure of the value of your religious faith.

You're so silly.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 07:31 am
Once again, for those who apparently are incapable of understanding it, this topic is in the history forum. The topic is not me, it's not Intrepid, it's not MOAN, it's not Snood. The topic is what historical evidence, if any, there is for the existence of the putative Jesus.

So far, the bible-thumpers aren't doing so well with the topic, although they've enjoyed a certain success in derailing the discussion. Any comments on the topic, anyone?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 07:57 am
Setanta wrote:
It's good to know that you're not following me around (insert appropriate rolly-eyed emoticon here). Intrepid started playing games, doing just what you are doing--jumping in to comment when i hadn't addressed him. So i pointed out that he is playing a game, and that he, and you, have long played this game. You show up to comment, playing the game yourself, and want to claim you don't play it. But it just makes you look ridiculous, and hateful, a real measure of the value of your religious faith.

You're so silly.


Not half as silly as you are - you keep instigating things then swearing someones following you. Stop writing to, or about me.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 08:00 am
The topic of this thread, in the History forum, is whether or not there is any historical basis to alleged that the putative Jesus actually existed. I have asserted that there is not. Does anyone have a comment on the topic?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 03:26 pm
Hey Snood.... when did they change this thread from Religion to History? Oh, I remember now... a post from ehBeth said she was going to request that the mods change it... I guess they did.

Now Jesus is being reduced to a plain old historical figure. Then again, the arguments in this thread seem to refute that too.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 03:37 pm
Which is, of course, the point of the thread. If you have a problem with that, all you need do is present evidence which irrefutably estalishes an historical record for your boy Hey-Zeus.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 03:47 pm
Are you following me? Are you answering something that I didn't ask you? Gee. what a hypocrite.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 03:51 pm
No, i'm not following you--i've been posting to this thread since page 2, which is before you showed. Therefore, based upon the simple-minded criterion you apparently apply, you are following me.

Hypocrite.


Do you have anything to say on the topic of the thread?
0 Replies
 
Baph
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2006 08:25 pm
After reading through all 20 pages of this thread, I have to say "great history lesson" - I have learnt a lot of neat new stuff. I may even collate the best bits for future perusal at my leisure. Cool

I could repeat the standard arguments for and against - but I am too tired. If the group arguing that Jesus existed put forward a more structured argument I might have more to say. After all there is the modern shared experiences of tens of thousands of "new Christians", who although having never met have certainly had similar life changing revelations which they claim to have experienced via the man himself. This in the world today is potentially more reliable than ancient historical record.

A proportion of you imply that faith is not relevant, only recorded history. I would argue that intelligent, informed faith, or faith based on personal experience, is valid. Since it is our perception and interpretation of the world that is valid for our own personal experience.

My personal beliefs are irrelevant (check the signature). A couple of noteworthy responses though:

Setanta said - "Which is, of course, the point of the thread. If you have a problem with that, all you need do is present evidence which irrefutably estalishes an historical record for your boy Hey-Zeus."

Besides "the gospels", & other religious texts probably no other record would exist. I personally have no idea whether he did or didn't.
The part that made me smile was "Hey-Zeus", since I used to use that in my semantic and phonetic ridiculing of the bible and my arguments for an artificial world and a super intelligence that was DEFINITELY NOT the biblical God or Devil. Although, could very easily have been either.

Finally, I thought it worth a mention that a factual TV documentary I saw recently showed physical evidence that the Romans did nail people to crosses rather than just tying them.

Hope I ain't bored you guys to death.
0 Replies
 
 

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