Setanta wrote:Just like a old dog, bullyraggin' a cast-off shoe . . .
Yer right. I get along much better with you atheist guys than I do with the Watchtower fugitives.
Neither Talkactive or myself are Watchtower fugitives. Just because I've pointed out your blind obedience to the Watchtower Society is no reason for you to resort to misrepresentation.
Sorry. Well, you guys know each other better than I do.
So, Neo, is your blind obediance to the Watchtower gonna interfer with your ability to get me a cup of coffee?
Teleologist wrote:Neologist wrote:
Quote:I am one of the most cussedly independent and rebellious persons you will ever meet; but even I can see the need for organization.
I recognize the need for organization. What I dispute is the requirement of blind obedience. Don't you believe you must follow the teachings of the Watchtower Society even when you think they are wrong? How is that being independent?
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.
I believe "organization" was at some point intended to be a form of leadership for the "followers" of that particular religious belief. Actually "organization" can be used in many different contexts. However concerning religion it has become, for the most part, "rulership" rather than "leadership" in most cases. There is a huge difference in my opinion.
Rulership is a group of people lording their "authority" over others of seemingly less influence telling them where to step, when to step, how to step, and what will happen (impending doom) if you don't step. It's about control and power. Rulership demands blind obedience because those who follow must be blind in order not to see that the ones they are following would not put one finger to do the things they are telling others to do.
However, "leadership" does not lord itself over others. True leadership is seen through actions not heard through words or commands. True leadership defines itself by how it treats others. True leadership doesn't need to rule or promote it's own authority over something or someone because true leadership is usually followed based on the fact that it does not say, "Do as I say, not as I do." Rather it say's, "Do as I do." without asking, demanding, condemning, or berating anyone or anything.
I think that in some ways neo and I are very similar. Though I suppose I could be wrong. However based on this comment:
Quote:I am one of the most cussedly independent and rebellious persons you will ever meet; but even I can see the need for organization.
I too could say the same thing. I view myself very much this way. I am in some ways completely rebellious and independent regarding my religious beliefs, however, I also see the need for organization. Not rulership though. Leadership. True leadership.
Setanta wrote:So, Neo, is your blind obediance to the Watchtower gonna interfer with your ability to get me a cup of coffee?
You are always welcome to join me at the Starbucks located on the corner of 220th SW and Hwy 99 in Edmonds, WA. I'm buying. Might even throw in a croissant.
hephzibah wrote:Teleologist wrote:Neologist wrote:
Quote:I am one of the most cussedly independent and rebellious persons you will ever meet; but even I can see the need for organization.
I recognize the need for organization. What I dispute is the requirement of blind obedience. Don't you believe you must follow the teachings of the Watchtower Society even when you think they are wrong? How is that being independent?
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.
I believe "organization" was at some point intended to be a form of leadership for the "followers" of that particular religious belief. Actually "organization" can be used in many different contexts. However concerning religion it has become, for the most part, "rulership" rather than "leadership" in most cases. There is a huge difference in my opinion.
Rulership is a group of people lording their "authority" over others of seemingly less influence telling them where to step, when to step, how to step, and what will happen (impending doom) if you don't step. It's about control and power. Rulership demands blind obedience because those who follow must be blind in order not to see that the ones they are following would not put one finger to do the things they are telling others to do.
However, "leadership" does not lord itself over others. True leadership is seen through actions not heard through words or commands. True leadership defines itself by how it treats others. True leadership doesn't need to rule or promote it's own authority over something or someone because true leadership is usually followed based on the fact that it does not say, "Do as I say, not as I do." Rather it say's, "Do as I do." without asking, demanding, condemning, or berating anyone or anything.
I think that in some ways neo and I are very similar. Though I suppose I could be wrong. However based on this comment:
Quote:I am one of the most cussedly independent and rebellious persons you will ever meet; but even I can see the need for organization.
I too could say the same thing. I view myself very much this way. I am in some ways completely rebellious and independent regarding my religious beliefs, however, I also see the need for organization. Not rulership though. Leadership. True leadership.
Thanks, Heph. What amazes me is that Talk and Tele, who have never contributed to any of the other threads to which I have posted, (do they ever even read them?) seem to think I lack the ability to make an informed choice.
"There are no two (religious) organizations more dissimilar than the Catholic Church and Jehovah's Witnesses. What have you been smoking?"
"Murder? Like the Crusades? Like the Holocaust? Like the Rwandan massacres? Like the suicide bombers?"
Neo. You totally missed the point, I did not compare, but was only trying to guide your attentions to what religious organisations can get their followers to do, and that was among other the reason for mentioning Jim Jones!
Do you think there is any difference between the members of The Watchtower Society, who choose to die or let their children die, in leak of vaccinations, organ transplantations or the blood, based at their flickering and unbiblical doctrines and Jim Jones followers who committed suicide and sent themselves and their children into the death?
It is only the methods, but psychotically, it is in accordance to my opinion exactly the same pattern as those described in Jeremiah 7:31! They thought also, like the Catholic inquisitors, crusaders, Jim Jones and many of them who believes that it was Gods will and their religious leaders was speaking on behalf of Jehovah. Do you believe they did or does, whit the fact at hand?
I don't think you are really informed about and what's going on in The Tower. Regarding Rwanda have you ever thought about that the Society forbid their members (JW's) to buy a political card, in a State where the party was equal to the Government, which they also have a citizenry membership and possible also a pass port which confirm that their are citizenry of the state Rwanda. That was the situation that initiated the torture, rape and killings and maked those refugees.
I must state that there is no excuse for what have happend in Rwanda, just to avoid you put into my shoes that it was ok!
At the same time The Society allows members of the Bethel and brothers in South America to bribe corrupt military officers to get a card which documentation that they have done their military service. The Brothers was also members and written into the military file and reserve, disposable for draft calls!
Somebody try to convince me that double morality was double as goo as morality, but I have not been convinced or can tell you frankly, that I will never accept that in my life, but mostly of the memembers of The Society accept their doubbel speak and members of FN, NGO, at the same time they comndamed FN as the Scarlet read lion as described in revelation !
As a little private experience, I once asked my brother if mostly of the population on earth was members of The Watchtower Society, what would happened to persons with your experience and background. Can you imagine what he told me? He said totally cynical that it was ok to kill them, not by Jehovah but by members, like the Israelite did in the past!
I do not hope you agree with him, you have possibly never get a change to change your mind and behaviour, but never mind I took a clear distance to his statement and took it more for a joke!
It was a big lesson to me together and compared with all evilness which has been done in the name of God, based at religius leaders doctrines without any reference to Jehovah!
"There are no two (religious) organizations more dissimilar than the Catholic Church and Jehovah's Witnesses. What have you been smoking?"
"Murder? Like the Crusades? Like the Holocaust? Like the Rwandan massacres? Like the suicide bombers?"
Neo. You totally missed the point, I did not compare, but was only trying to guide your attentions to what religious organisations can get their followers to do, and that was among other the reason for mentioning Jim Jones!
Do you think there is any difference between the members of The Watchtower Society, who choose to die or let their children die, in leak of vaccinations, organ transplantations or the blood, based at their flickering and unbiblical doctrines and Jim Jones followers who committed suicide and sent themselves and their children into the death?
It is only the methods, but psychotically, it is in accordance to my opinion exactly the same pattern as those described in Jeremiah 7:31! They thought also, like the Catholic inquisitors, crusaders, Jim Jones and many of them who believes that it was Gods will and their religious leaders was speaking on behalf of Jehovah. Do you believe they did or does, whit the fact at hand?
I don't think you are really informed about and what's going on in The Tower. Regarding Rwanda have you ever thought about that the Society forbid their members (JW's) to buy a political card, in a State where the party was equal to the Government, which they also have a citizenry membership and possible also a pass port which confirm that their are citizenry of the state Rwanda. That was the situation that initiated the torture, rape and killings and maked those refugees.
I must state that there is no excuse for what have happend in Rwanda, just to avoid you put into my shoes that it was ok!
At the same time The Society allows members of the Bethel and brothers in South America to bribe corrupt military officers to get a card which documentation that they have done their military service. The Brothers was also members and written into the military file and reserve, disposable for draft calls!
Somebody try to convince me that double morality was double as goo as morality, but I have not been convinced or can tell you frankly, that I will never accept that in my life, but mostly of the memembers of The Society accept their doubbel speak and members of FN, NGO, at the same time they comndamed FN as the Scarlet read lion as described in revelation !
As a little private experience, I once asked my brother if mostly of the population on earth was members of The Watchtower Society, what would happened to persons with your experience and background. Can you imagine what he told me? He said totally cynical that it was ok to kill them, not by Jehovah but by members, like the Israelite did in the past!
I do not hope you agree with him, you have possibly never get a change to change your mind and behaviour, but never mind I took a clear distance to his statement and took it more for a joke!
It was a big lesson to me together and compared with all evilness which has been done in the name of God, based at religius leaders doctrines without any reference to Jehovah!
neologist wrote:
Thanks, Heph. What amazes me is that Talk and Tele, who have never contributed to any of the other threads to which I have posted, (do they ever even read them?) seem to think I lack the ability to make an informed choice.
LOL... sounds to me like they might be leaning a bit more towards the "rulership" side of promoting their beliefs....
hehehe....
No need to tell me twice, Talk. What are FN and NGO?
And, what is there about your brother and his experience that should enlighten me?
Quote:What amazes me is that Talk and Tele, who have never contributed to any of the other threads to which I have posted, (do they ever even read them?) seem to think I lack the ability to make an informed choice.
As a JW you are required to accept and promote
all Watchtower teachings. So what would you do if you determined that some teaching of the Watchtower Society was in error? Would you continue to promote it as truth?
Hephzibah wrote:
Quote:Do you think that if this impending judgement day comes Jesus is going to separate the baptists from the pentacostals from the mormons, from the jehovah's witness', and on and on and on? No, I think not.
I suspect Neo would disagree with you about this.
Don't you see it doesn't matter? Honestly think about this Teleologist. No matter what Neo believes or you believe or I believe, what is, is what is. God is what He is. It's not important if all our beliefs agree. If all our doctrines agree. What is important is how we are living our lives. Period. If Neo disagree's, so what? That won't change my level of respect for him in the slightest because Neo is more than what he believes. As are you and I and everyone else. God looks beyond the outside and sees the priceless treasure within. Should we not do the same?
"No need to tell me twice, Talk. What are FN and NGO?"
" So, Neo, is your blind obediance to the Watchtower gonna interfer with your ability to get me a cup of coffee?"
Neo. Sorry, but sometimes it happens without my knowledge, but maybe there was a deeper meaning with it, who knows, by using an F instead of a U?
Like mostly of the worlds Governments are members of United Nations, then there are Non Governmental Organisations like The Watchtower Society.
The Watchtower Society was a full member of UN NGO for a period of 10 years, until Allan Bates brought an article in the UK. Only two days after the article was published, The Society cancelled their membership.
In the magazines Awake and Watchtower the Society has condemned the UN for decades and not lees but mostly, letting their followers spread the magazines when Watchtower at the same time was a full member of NGO!
When The Society was compromised with the membership from followers around the world, the Society tries every excuse possible like; "It was not a membership. It was to get access to the library. The rules has changed etc.
Poul Hoeffel at UN confirms in written form that the Society was committed to support and follow the rules of UN and it was a full membership and furthermore the conditions has not changed since the Watchtower became a member and forwards.
But lets go back to the subject that The Watchtower Society are responsible for thousands of persons death, because they didn't get a fair change to make their own decision, in question of a life death situation, because they was teached by the Society that they will be obidient to Jehovah's commandments and his Organisation and can you imagine a religious person that likes to be obedient to God and furthermore they use psycological pressure by saying; How many ears do you think you possible could gain by taking medical treatments in form of vaccinations, organs and blood and then loose the possibility for an everlasting life in the new world order. Nearly every JW nightmare!
If it was a the fact and situation, one had to make, a choice between 70 to 80 years at its almost, compared with an everlasting life, a God fearing, believing blindly that The Society speaks for God, has from this belifs view, no alternative other than bleeding to death or letting a son or daughter die.
Lets take an example: "Do you think it is legally to convince a person to drink poison, like Jim Jones did, without beeing accused for murder?
What do you then think about an religious organization who teach their followers to abstain from vaccinations, organs and medical use of blood, by convince them that it is the act of satan. Will they not be held responsible, at least in the eyes of Jehovah, since a Jew and an Alien was alowed to even eat all the blood in a carcass and we are allowed to eat meat with up to 50 % left behind, of the blood and medical treatment is not eating blood at all!!!!!
It seems also that Setanta "So, Neo, is your blind obediance to the Watchtower gonna interfer with your ability to get me a cup of coffee?" knows you better than your own description, that you aren't blindly following the Watchtower Society.
Pls. be aware, if you talk with your elders in the Congregation and withhold that you are not agreed with e.g. the 1914 or the blood ban doctrine, you will be classified as obedient to Gods channel on earth and as an opposer and shortly after disfellowshipped.
Tele. At least the Watchtower Society disagree, because they teach their members that all other religious organizations are false and will be destroyed in Armageddon.
In Aid to Bible understanding, under the item Blodguilt, it comes forth that persons supporting an Organization, like Babylon the great carrying at much bloodguilt, will be associated and responsible with the Organization!
It seems also that some persons are taking the debate as an personal attack, but I know for sure eighter do you or I accuse anybody, but try to stay at the fact, because none owns the right to judge another person. Romans 2:1, but since it has come forth that persons has their own opinion, but do not wanna go against the WTBTS doctrines in spite of biblical facts, it gets and becomes, as a natural fact and of course more personal!
Talkactive wrote:Tele. At least the Watchtower Society disagree, because they teach their members that all other religious organizations are false and will be destroyed in Armageddon.
In Aid to Bible understanding, under the item Blodguilt, it comes forth that persons supporting an Organization, like Babylon the great carrying at much bloodguilt, will be associated and responsible with the Organization!
It seems also that some persons are taking the debate as an personal attack, but I know for sure eighter do you or I accuse anybody, but try to stay at the fact, because none owns the right to judge another person. Romans 2:1, but since it has come forth that persons has their own opinion, but do not wanna go against the WTBTS doctrines in spite of biblical facts, it gets and becomes, as a natural fact and of course more personal!
Absolutely not talkactive. At what point have I, if you are talking about me that is
said that you have accused anyone of anything? My point is look at your own life first before you start trying to change others.
Teleologist wrote:Hephzibah wrote:
Quote:Do you think that if this impending judgement day comes Jesus is going to separate the baptists from the pentacostals from the mormons, from the jehovah's witness', and on and on and on? No, I think not.
I suspect Neo would disagree with you about this.
Talkactive wrote:Tele. At least the Watchtower Society disagree, because they teach their members that all other religious organizations are false and will be destroyed in Armageddon.
In Aid to Bible understanding, under the item Blodguilt, it comes forth that persons supporting an Organization, like Babylon the great carrying at much bloodguilt, will be associated and responsible with the Organization!
It seems also that some persons are taking the debate as an personal attack, but I know for sure eighter do you or I accuse anybody, but try to stay at the fact, because none owns the right to judge another person. Romans 2:1, but since it has come forth that persons has their own opinion, but do not wanna go against the WTBTS doctrines in spite of biblical facts, it gets and becomes, as a natural fact and of course more personal!
Will all those who are not Jehovah's Witnesses suffer destruction?
I suspect many will yet heed the call of Revelation 18:4: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues." What that time will be like is subject to speculation; but from my viewpoint, the starting line appears even for all.
