For Neologist, and anyone else affiliated with watchtower.

Setanta wrote:

Just like a old dog, bullyraggin' a cast-off shoe . . .

Yer right. I get along much better with you atheist guys than I do with the Watchtower fugitives.

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Neither Talkactive or myself are Watchtower fugitives. Just because I've pointed out your blind obedience to the Watchtower Society is no reason for you to resort to misrepresentation.

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Sorry. Well, you guys know each other better than I do.

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So, Neo, is your blind obediance to the Watchtower gonna interfer with your ability to get me a cup of coffee?

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Teleologist wrote:

Neologist wrote:

Quote:
I am one of the most cussedly independent and rebellious persons you will ever meet; but even I can see the need for organization.

I recognize the need for organization. What I dispute is the requirement of blind obedience. Don't you believe you must follow the teachings of the Watchtower Society even when you think they are wrong? How is that being independent?

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

I believe "organization" was at some point intended to be a form of leadership for the "followers" of that particular religious belief. Actually "organization" can be used in many different contexts. However concerning religion it has become, for the most part, "rulership" rather than "leadership" in most cases. There is a huge difference in my opinion.

Rulership is a group of people lording their "authority" over others of seemingly less influence telling them where to step, when to step, how to step, and what will happen (impending doom) if you don't step. It's about control and power. Rulership demands blind obedience because those who follow must be blind in order not to see that the ones they are following would not put one finger to do the things they are telling others to do.

However, "leadership" does not lord itself over others. True leadership is seen through actions not heard through words or commands. True leadership defines itself by how it treats others. True leadership doesn't need to rule or promote it's own authority over something or someone because true leadership is usually followed based on the fact that it does not say, "Do as I say, not as I do." Rather it say's, "Do as I do." without asking, demanding, condemning, or berating anyone or anything.

I think that in some ways neo and I are very similar. Though I suppose I could be wrong. However based on this comment:

Quote:

I am one of the most cussedly independent and rebellious persons you will ever meet; but even I can see the need for organization.

I too could say the same thing. I view myself very much this way. I am in some ways completely rebellious and independent regarding my religious beliefs, however, I also see the need for organization. Not rulership though. Leadership. True leadership.

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Setanta wrote:

So, Neo, is your blind obediance to the Watchtower gonna interfer with your ability to get me a cup of coffee?

You are always welcome to join me at the Starbucks located on the corner of 220th SW and Hwy 99 in Edmonds, WA. I'm buying. Might even throw in a croissant.

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hephzibah wrote:

Teleologist wrote:
Neologist wrote:

Quote:
I am one of the most cussedly independent and rebellious persons you will ever meet; but even I can see the need for organization.

I recognize the need for organization. What I dispute is the requirement of blind obedience. Don't you believe you must follow the teachings of the Watchtower Society even when you think they are wrong? How is that being independent?

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

I believe "organization" was at some point intended to be a form of leadership for the "followers" of that particular religious belief. Actually "organization" can be used in many different contexts. However concerning religion it has become, for the most part, "rulership" rather than "leadership" in most cases. There is a huge difference in my opinion.

Rulership is a group of people lording their "authority" over others of seemingly less influence telling them where to step, when to step, how to step, and what will happen (impending doom) if you don't step. It's about control and power. Rulership demands blind obedience because those who follow must be blind in order not to see that the ones they are following would not put one finger to do the things they are telling others to do.

However, "leadership" does not lord itself over others. True leadership is seen through actions not heard through words or commands. True leadership defines itself by how it treats others. True leadership doesn't need to rule or promote it's own authority over something or someone because true leadership is usually followed based on the fact that it does not say, "Do as I say, not as I do." Rather it say's, "Do as I do." without asking, demanding, condemning, or berating anyone or anything.

I think that in some ways neo and I are very similar. Though I suppose I could be wrong. However based on this comment:

Quote:
I am one of the most cussedly independent and rebellious persons you will ever meet; but even I can see the need for organization.

I too could say the same thing. I view myself very much this way. I am in some ways completely rebellious and independent regarding my religious beliefs, however, I also see the need for organization. Not rulership though. Leadership. True leadership.

Thanks, Heph. What amazes me is that Talk and Tele, who have never contributed to any of the other threads to which I have posted, (do they ever even read them?) seem to think I lack the ability to make an informed choice.

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"There are no two (religious) organizations more dissimilar than the Catholic Church and Jehovah's Witnesses. What have you been smoking?"

"Murder? Like the Crusades? Like the Holocaust? Like the Rwandan massacres? Like the suicide bombers?"

Neo. You totally missed the point, I did not compare, but was only trying to guide your attentions to what religious organisations can get their followers to do, and that was among other the reason for mentioning Jim Jones!

Do you think there is any difference between the members of The Watchtower Society, who choose to die or let their children die, in leak of vaccinations, organ transplantations or the blood, based at their flickering and unbiblical doctrines and Jim Jones followers who committed suicide and sent themselves and their children into the death?

It is only the methods, but psychotically, it is in accordance to my opinion exactly the same pattern as those described in Jeremiah 7:31! They thought also, like the Catholic inquisitors, crusaders, Jim Jones and many of them who believes that it was Gods will and their religious leaders was speaking on behalf of Jehovah. Do you believe they did or does, whit the fact at hand?

I don't think you are really informed about and what's going on in The Tower. Regarding Rwanda have you ever thought about that the Society forbid their members (JW's) to buy a political card, in a State where the party was equal to the Government, which they also have a citizenry membership and possible also a pass port which confirm that their are citizenry of the state Rwanda. That was the situation that initiated the torture, rape and killings and maked those refugees.

I must state that there is no excuse for what have happend in Rwanda, just to avoid you put into my shoes that it was ok!

At the same time The Society allows members of the Bethel and brothers in South America to bribe corrupt military officers to get a card which documentation that they have done their military service. The Brothers was also members and written into the military file and reserve, disposable for draft calls!

Somebody try to convince me that double morality was double as goo as morality, but I have not been convinced or can tell you frankly, that I will never accept that in my life, but mostly of the memembers of The Society accept their doubbel speak and members of FN, NGO, at the same time they comndamed FN as the Scarlet read lion as described in revelation !

As a little private experience, I once asked my brother if mostly of the population on earth was members of The Watchtower Society, what would happened to persons with your experience and background. Can you imagine what he told me? He said totally cynical that it was ok to kill them, not by Jehovah but by members, like the Israelite did in the past!

I do not hope you agree with him, you have possibly never get a change to change your mind and behaviour, but never mind I took a clear distance to his statement and took it more for a joke!

It was a big lesson to me together and compared with all evilness which has been done in the name of God, based at religius leaders doctrines without any reference to Jehovah!

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"There are no two (religious) organizations more dissimilar than the Catholic Church and Jehovah's Witnesses. What have you been smoking?"

"Murder? Like the Crusades? Like the Holocaust? Like the Rwandan massacres? Like the suicide bombers?"

Neo. You totally missed the point, I did not compare, but was only trying to guide your attentions to what religious organisations can get their followers to do, and that was among other the reason for mentioning Jim Jones!

Do you think there is any difference between the members of The Watchtower Society, who choose to die or let their children die, in leak of vaccinations, organ transplantations or the blood, based at their flickering and unbiblical doctrines and Jim Jones followers who committed suicide and sent themselves and their children into the death?

It is only the methods, but psychotically, it is in accordance to my opinion exactly the same pattern as those described in Jeremiah 7:31! They thought also, like the Catholic inquisitors, crusaders, Jim Jones and many of them who believes that it was Gods will and their religious leaders was speaking on behalf of Jehovah. Do you believe they did or does, whit the fact at hand?

I don't think you are really informed about and what's going on in The Tower. Regarding Rwanda have you ever thought about that the Society forbid their members (JW's) to buy a political card, in a State where the party was equal to the Government, which they also have a citizenry membership and possible also a pass port which confirm that their are citizenry of the state Rwanda. That was the situation that initiated the torture, rape and killings and maked those refugees.

I must state that there is no excuse for what have happend in Rwanda, just to avoid you put into my shoes that it was ok!

At the same time The Society allows members of the Bethel and brothers in South America to bribe corrupt military officers to get a card which documentation that they have done their military service. The Brothers was also members and written into the military file and reserve, disposable for draft calls!

Somebody try to convince me that double morality was double as goo as morality, but I have not been convinced or can tell you frankly, that I will never accept that in my life, but mostly of the memembers of The Society accept their doubbel speak and members of FN, NGO, at the same time they comndamed FN as the Scarlet read lion as described in revelation !

As a little private experience, I once asked my brother if mostly of the population on earth was members of The Watchtower Society, what would happened to persons with your experience and background. Can you imagine what he told me? He said totally cynical that it was ok to kill them, not by Jehovah but by members, like the Israelite did in the past!

I do not hope you agree with him, you have possibly never get a change to change your mind and behaviour, but never mind I took a clear distance to his statement and took it more for a joke!

It was a big lesson to me together and compared with all evilness which has been done in the name of God, based at religius leaders doctrines without any reference to Jehovah!

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neologist wrote:

Thanks, Heph. What amazes me is that Talk and Tele, who have never contributed to any of the other threads to which I have posted, (do they ever even read them?) seem to think I lack the ability to make an informed choice.

LOL... sounds to me like they might be leaning a bit more towards the "rulership" side of promoting their beliefs....

hehehe....

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No need to tell me twice, Talk. What are FN and NGO?

And, what is there about your brother and his experience that should enlighten me?

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"However, "leadership" does not lord itself over others. True leadership is seen through actions not heard through words or commands. True leadership defines itself by how it treats others. True leadership doesn't need to rule or promote it's own authority over something or someone because true leadership is usually followed based on the fact that it does not say, "Do as I say, not as I do." Rather it say's, "Do as I do." without asking, demanding, condemning, or berating anyone or anything."

Hephzibah. The best we can do is to look at the head of our Christian belif, Jesus Christ!

I think Albert Barnes describe the religious leders very well, in his commentary to 1 Peter 5:3 and thats what we are talking about when religious leaders force people to chose the death based at doctrines and not love and compassion like Jesus shows us.

THE FIRST EPISTLE GENERAL OF PETER - Chapter 5 - Verse 3
Verse 3. Neither as being lords. Marg., overruling. The word here used (katakurieuw) is rendered exercise dominion over, in Mt 20:25; exercise lordship over, in Mr 10:42; and overcame, in Ac 19:16. It does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. It refers properly to that kind of jurisdiction which civil rulers or magistrates exercise. This is an exercise of authority, as contradistinguished from the influence of reason, persuasion, and example. The latter pertains to the ministers of religion; the former is forbidden to them. Their dominion is not to be that of temporal lordship; it is to be that of love and truth. This command would prohibit all assumption of temporal power by the ministers of religion, and all conferring of titles of nobility on those who are preachers of the gospel. It needs scarcely to be said that it has been very little regarded in the church.

Over God's heritage?-twn klhrwn. Vulgate, in cleris?-over the clergy. The Greek word here (klhrov?-kleros) is that from which the word clergy has been derived; and some have interpreted it here as referring to the clergy, that is, to priests and deacons who are under the authority of a bishop. Such an interpretation, however, would hardly be adopted now. The word means properly,

(a.) a lot, die, anything used in determining chances;

(b.) a part or portion, such as is assigned by lot; hence

(c.) an office to which one is designated or appointed, by lot or otherwise; and

(d.) in general any possession or heritage, Ac 26:18 Col 1:12. The meaning here is, "not lording it over the possessions or the heritage of God." The reference is, undoubtedly, to the church, as that which is peculiarly his property; his own in the world. Whitby and others suppose that it refers to the possessions or property of the church; Doddridge explains it?-"not assuming dominion over those who fall to your lot," supposing it to mean that they were not to domineer over the particular congregations committed by Providence to their care. But the other interpretation is most in accordance with the usual meaning of the word.

But being ensamples to the flock. Examples. See Barnes "1Ti 4:12".

Peter has drawn here with great beauty, the appropriate character of the ministers of the gospel, and described the spirit with which they should he actuated in the discharge of the duties of their office. But how different it is from the character of many who have claimed to be ministers of religion; and especially how different from that corrupt communion which professes in a special manner to recognise Peter as the head, and the vicegerent of Christ. It is well remarked by Benson on this passage, that "the church of Rome could not well have acted more directly contrary to this injunction of St. Peter's if she had studied to disobey it, and to form herself upon a rule that should be the reverse of this."

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Quote:

What amazes me is that Talk and Tele, who have never contributed to any of the other threads to which I have posted, (do they ever even read them?) seem to think I lack the ability to make an informed choice.

As a JW you are required to accept and promote all Watchtower teachings. So what would you do if you determined that some teaching of the Watchtower Society was in error? Would you continue to promote it as truth?

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Talkactive wrote:

Son of a man has built The Watchtower Society and more precise they have built a religious house without a parapet and people have died and are going to die, because they have maked the Organisation to be equal to God and they are dangerous for themselves and their fellow men, called Jehovah's Witnesses, only if people are members of the Organization, which also is false, because Abel was the first witnesses for Noah, Abraham and the men of faith was not related to or was necessary to belong to an Organisation to be accepted by Jehovah as his Witnesses.

If somebody likes to belong to the Catholic church or The watchtower Society, it is a personal choice ones has to do, because in my opinion they all carry on bloodguilt, because of the many death casualties they have afforded by their manipulation of the Bible to fit into their doctrines to distance them from each other, all of them claiming that they are anointed by God, which isn't true, because their fruits show the opposite and thats why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23!

23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

NB bold added!

Do as I say... not what I do... That's what this sounds like to me. Do you know neo's heart? I don't think so. Are you even capable of knowing neo's heart? I don't think so. Do you think that if this impending judgement day comes Jesus is going to separate the baptists from the pentacostals from the mormons, from the jehova's witness', from the "unsaved" as classified by religion, and on and on and on? No, I think not:

Matthew 25
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ?'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ?'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ?'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ?'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, ?'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ?'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I see nothing here about different sects of religions. Different groups. I see something so simple, so easy to understand, that it could almost escape the natural eye: Who served Him through what they did? Who? Are you? Or are you more concerned about converting someone from a different "religion" that you have forgotten that you must first live what you are asking others to live?

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Hephzibah wrote:

Quote:

Do you think that if this impending judgement day comes Jesus is going to separate the baptists from the pentacostals from the mormons, from the jehovah's witness', and on and on and on? No, I think not.

I suspect Neo would disagree with you about this.

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Don't you see it doesn't matter? Honestly think about this Teleologist. No matter what Neo believes or you believe or I believe, what is, is what is. God is what He is. It's not important if all our beliefs agree. If all our doctrines agree. What is important is how we are living our lives. Period. If Neo disagree's, so what? That won't change my level of respect for him in the slightest because Neo is more than what he believes. As are you and I and everyone else. God looks beyond the outside and sees the priceless treasure within. Should we not do the same?

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"No need to tell me twice, Talk. What are FN and NGO?"

" So, Neo, is your blind obediance to the Watchtower gonna interfer with your ability to get me a cup of coffee?"

Neo. Sorry, but sometimes it happens without my knowledge, but maybe there was a deeper meaning with it, who knows, by using an F instead of a U?

Like mostly of the worlds Governments are members of United Nations, then there are Non Governmental Organisations like The Watchtower Society.

The Watchtower Society was a full member of UN NGO for a period of 10 years, until Allan Bates brought an article in the UK. Only two days after the article was published, The Society cancelled their membership.

In the magazines Awake and Watchtower the Society has condemned the UN for decades and not lees but mostly, letting their followers spread the magazines when Watchtower at the same time was a full member of NGO!

When The Society was compromised with the membership from followers around the world, the Society tries every excuse possible like; "It was not a membership. It was to get access to the library. The rules has changed etc.

Poul Hoeffel at UN confirms in written form that the Society was committed to support and follow the rules of UN and it was a full membership and furthermore the conditions has not changed since the Watchtower became a member and forwards.

But lets go back to the subject that The Watchtower Society are responsible for thousands of persons death, because they didn't get a fair change to make their own decision, in question of a life death situation, because they was teached by the Society that they will be obidient to Jehovah's commandments and his Organisation and can you imagine a religious person that likes to be obedient to God and furthermore they use psycological pressure by saying; How many ears do you think you possible could gain by taking medical treatments in form of vaccinations, organs and blood and then loose the possibility for an everlasting life in the new world order. Nearly every JW nightmare!

If it was a the fact and situation, one had to make, a choice between 70 to 80 years at its almost, compared with an everlasting life, a God fearing, believing blindly that The Society speaks for God, has from this belifs view, no alternative other than bleeding to death or letting a son or daughter die.

Lets take an example: "Do you think it is legally to convince a person to drink poison, like Jim Jones did, without beeing accused for murder?

What do you then think about an religious organization who teach their followers to abstain from vaccinations, organs and medical use of blood, by convince them that it is the act of satan. Will they not be held responsible, at least in the eyes of Jehovah, since a Jew and an Alien was alowed to even eat all the blood in a carcass and we are allowed to eat meat with up to 50 % left behind, of the blood and medical treatment is not eating blood at all!!!!!

It seems also that Setanta "So, Neo, is your blind obediance to the Watchtower gonna interfer with your ability to get me a cup of coffee?" knows you better than your own description, that you aren't blindly following the Watchtower Society.

Pls. be aware, if you talk with your elders in the Congregation and withhold that you are not agreed with e.g. the 1914 or the blood ban doctrine, you will be classified as obedient to Gods channel on earth and as an opposer and shortly after disfellowshipped.

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Tele. At least the Watchtower Society disagree, because they teach their members that all other religious organizations are false and will be destroyed in Armageddon.

In Aid to Bible understanding, under the item Blodguilt, it comes forth that persons supporting an Organization, like Babylon the great carrying at much bloodguilt, will be associated and responsible with the Organization!

It seems also that some persons are taking the debate as an personal attack, but I know for sure eighter do you or I accuse anybody, but try to stay at the fact, because none owns the right to judge another person. Romans 2:1, but since it has come forth that persons has their own opinion, but do not wanna go against the WTBTS doctrines in spite of biblical facts, it gets and becomes, as a natural fact and of course more personal!

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Talkactive wrote:

Tele. At least the Watchtower Society disagree, because they teach their members that all other religious organizations are false and will be destroyed in Armageddon.

In Aid to Bible understanding, under the item Blodguilt, it comes forth that persons supporting an Organization, like Babylon the great carrying at much bloodguilt, will be associated and responsible with the Organization!

It seems also that some persons are taking the debate as an personal attack, but I know for sure eighter do you or I accuse anybody, but try to stay at the fact, because none owns the right to judge another person. Romans 2:1, but since it has come forth that persons has their own opinion, but do not wanna go against the WTBTS doctrines in spite of biblical facts, it gets and becomes, as a natural fact and of course more personal!

Absolutely not talkactive. At what point have I, if you are talking about me that is Razz

said that you have accused anyone of anything? My point is look at your own life first before you start trying to change others.

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Teleologist wrote:

Hephzibah wrote:

Quote:
Do you think that if this impending judgement day comes Jesus is going to separate the baptists from the pentacostals from the mormons, from the jehovah's witness', and on and on and on? No, I think not.

I suspect Neo would disagree with you about this.

Talkactive wrote:

Tele. At least the Watchtower Society disagree, because they teach their members that all other religious organizations are false and will be destroyed in Armageddon.

In Aid to Bible understanding, under the item Blodguilt, it comes forth that persons supporting an Organization, like Babylon the great carrying at much bloodguilt, will be associated and responsible with the Organization!

It seems also that some persons are taking the debate as an personal attack, but I know for sure eighter do you or I accuse anybody, but try to stay at the fact, because none owns the right to judge another person. Romans 2:1, but since it has come forth that persons has their own opinion, but do not wanna go against the WTBTS doctrines in spite of biblical facts, it gets and becomes, as a natural fact and of course more personal!

Will all those who are not Jehovah's Witnesses suffer destruction?

I suspect many will yet heed the call of Revelation 18:4: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues." What that time will be like is subject to speculation; but from my viewpoint, the starting line appears even for all.

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