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Quote:Quote:Neo wrote:
Luke, I'd sure like for you to hang around, but this topic is a definite dead end. Why not visit a few of the other threads on this fine board?
Good thinking Neo, maybe I will check out some of the other forums here. I would definitely agree that this thread has long since departed from the purpose for which it was started and has come to a dead end. A dead end guarded by a couple of Rottweiler's (I don't mean any offence Tele, Talk, but you don't seem to be particularly gentle in expressing your views).
Ok, let me say this clearly;
I will not post in this thread again after this.
And again
I will not post in this thread again after this.
Quote:Talkative Wrote:
Come and defend yourself, answer Tele's questions as a man!!!
Saying things like that are deliberately provocational, and, as I said in my first post, I do not want to get drawn into a pointless argument. Which is only what this will become if we continue, as it is obvious we will never agree on these things. Please don't try to get me to reply further by saying things like that, because it wont get you anywhere.
Have you ever thought of what Jesus said in Matthew 5:37!
5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Quote:Quote:Teleologist Wrote:
Alcohol has the same effect on the body whether it is taken by mouth or injected into the veins. It can make you drunk either way. So of course, your doctor's order to abstain from alcohol would mean not taking it via the mouth or the veins. However, the situation would be different if injecting alcohol into the veins was good for you. In this case your doctor's order to abstain from alcohol would simply mean that you shouldn't drink it.
Taking a blood transfusion usually isn't that good for you. Maybe it can save your life, but it can just as easily take it away. What that illustration does not take into account of course is that blood is sacred, as it represents the life of the creature. Which is the main reason for its prohibition, not because its just unhealthy.
AnomyousLuke with reference to your own statement further, that animals don't get married and therefore "we can't use that animals sustain life from blood as examples", how does it come and harmonize when and even animals blood is representing life, is it not both animals and humans blood you mean that are holy?
Isn't it Jehovah who shows the humanity via his creation what is valid or not? Or have you replaced Jehovah with the Wattchtower Society and what comes fort in their litterature?
Quote:Quote:Teleologist Wrote:
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But JW's don't abstain from blood. Once JW's get through taking all the "approved" fractionated parts from a pint of donated, stored blood, do you know what is left? Nothing!
One, approved is the wrong word to use here I think, the Watchtower articles clearly state that the use of blood fractions is a matter where each Christian must seriously and prayerfully decide for himself what his Bible trained conscience, would, or would not let him do before God. You not only make it seem as though we may use these at our personal whim, but also that all Jehovah's Witnesses would happily take blood fractions. Which is not true. Many would refuse them altogether.
Nonsense and wrong! The Watchtower Society have banned vaccinations, organ transplantations, blood and derivates hereof as no-no for decades and disfellowshipped JW's who even dare to think and rise questions about and whether the Society was wrong! Have Jehovah changes his mind again like a flipper game? Read the quotations in the bottom of the quotation:
It has first been official announced from the Society, in the year 2000, Watchtower Magazine that they have placed the responsibility at each members own conscience, with respect to the blood ban, through that in an attempt to avoid to be charged for 1st degree murderers!
Exactly the same pattern as with vaccinations and organ transplantations as latest with the blood from year 2000 and latest in the Awake Magazine from August 2006!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/790967.stm
The Watchtower Society has never admitted that they were wrong, as I'm informed about, by an official announcement that vaccinations and organ transplantations are allowed to take for JW's! Exactly the same pattern now what the blood concern!
Quote:Quote:Teleologist Wrote:
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It would be very simple for the Scriptures to tell Christians that blood transfusions are forbidden. How about this: do not take blood of any sort into your body.
Isn't that what abstinence means?
Look at it this way;
To the 1st Century Christians: "do not take blood of any sort into your body" would mean "do not eat or drink blood".
To the 1st Century Christians: "Abstain from
blood" would mean "do not eat or drink blood".
To us in our day: "do not take blood of any sort into your body" would mean "do not eat or drink blood or have it transfused into you".
I don't see any reason then, why to us in our day: "Abstain from
blood" wouldn't mean "do not eat or drink blood or have it transfused into you".
So when you look at Acts 15:20,29 and the Scriptures also state that we shall abstain from meat offered to idols and Paul later on admit that it isn't the meat itself but the act of idolatry that Christians shall abstain from, does that also mean, for you, that we under no circumstances are allowed to take meat into our bodies, which have been offered to idols, whether it's through our mouth or by an intravenous tube/sonde, which in both cases goes through the digestive system, opposite a transfusion of blood or derivates, injected in our veins can't be used as nutria?
It is interesting to notify, that the scriptures use the same Greek word "eudolothutos" by Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:4 and the same word as James use in Acts 15:29 when he speak about meat being offered to idols.
Opposite other translators of the Holy Scriptures, the Society have chosen to translate these expressions different to get support for their ban on blood, by this make it difficult for others to understand that Paul and James consider the same subject.
By this reasoning, the Society left us behind and it will look like, that Paul was an apostate, rejecting the Apostolic decree, by letting the Christians eat the meat offered to idols, even that Paul clearly understood that James comments was a strong recommendation, not a new Christian Law.
The reason and background for forwarding this statement was due to a struggle has it's origin from and whether heathens should be circumcised, in accordance to the Mosaic Law, eating of blood in the Mosaic law is without no doubts the Scriptural background for this reference!
It is therefore interesting to notify how the "Today's English Version" gives the translation:
"Eat no food that has been offered to idols; eat no blood; eat no animal that has been strangled; and keep yourselves from immorality."
Philips Modern English translation tells us it in these terms:
"Avoid what has been sacrificed to idols; tasting blood; eating the meat of what has been strangled; and sexual immorality."
Would it therefore be correct to expand this combination to contain and explain everything that has something to do with blood, by this interpretation to be: Abstain from blood under every circumstance and in every form?
This can be seen in the book: You can gain everlasting life on earth, page 216! To abstain from blood means that you under no circumstances are allowed to put it into your body!
So when we use the same Greek word, then it would be wrong to refer to the Paradise book, where Acts 15:29 comes forth:
To sustain from meat offered to idols, means that you under no circumstances are allowed to put it into your body!
This isn't correct because it will be in clear conflict with what comes forth in 1 Corinthians 8 and 10 and Romans 14! Since the Watchtower Society have tried to harmonize the chapters in Acts 15:29!
It was not a question to abstain from meat offered to idols but the act to be involved in idolatry. In question of blood it would therefore be incorrect, evil and wrong to make a selective and by no means to change the context and it can't be used excess of the meaning when it comes to the questions of blood!
Mostly of current Bible commentators and even Charles Taze Russell has maked that conclusion that the central message in the Apostolic decree was a temporary arrangement to minimize the huge differences between Jews and Heathens in the new young Christian Congregations.
Acts 15:29 was, even with the best will, not a new commandments and ethical norms for Christians, simply there was many other things involved in serving Jehovah, which was even more important that this four: Continue to abstain from meat offered to idols, from blood and from things strangled and fornication, May you fare well!
Above was a strong recommendation, not a new Christian Law!
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Ever hear of the Watchtower appoved medical procedure called "autografting"? When patients with leukemia receive heavy doses of chemotherapy, their bone marrow fails and stops producing blood cells. Normal bone marrow function can now be restored by taking some of the patients blood prior to chemotherapy and putting it in a machine that separates out the white blood cells. The white blood cells are then transfused back into the patient after chemotherapy. This procedure involves taking out blood and storing it for a period of time and then injecting it back into the veins of the patient. Do you think this procedure is the same as eating blood?
Here you clearly and again show you missing knowledge to common Biology and the procedures the Watchtower Society have approved and I have a certain form of understanding for JW's who can't understand a bit of the Society's flickering blood doctrines, but you would have been Lucky Luke and should have known better when you go public or maybe better before you go public and put your dirt at our screens! 1 Timothy 4:1-5!
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer
Quote:Quote:Teleologist Wrote:
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If the soul is in the blood and if the only proper use of blood is in sacrifice then why are JW's using products derived from donated, stored blood? If blood is sacred wouldn't that mean that red blood cells are sacred? Since red blood cells are 97% hemoglobin wouldn't that mean hemoglobin is sacred? But JW's are allowed to have transfusions of hemoglobin. What about plasma? Is plasma sacred? If so, wouldn't the substances that make up plasma be sacred? But JW's are allowed to take into their body every substance that is in plasma.
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Other Christians decide differently. They too refuse transfusions of whole blood, red cells, white cells, platelets, or plasma. Yet, they might allow a physician to treat them with a fraction extracted from the primary components. Even here there may be differences. One Christian may accept a gamma globulin injection, but he may or may not agree to an injection containing something extracted from red or white cells. Overall, though, what might lead some Christians to conclude that they could accept blood fractions?
"Questions From Readers" in The Watchtower of June 1, 1990, noted that plasma proteins (fractions) move from a pregnant woman's blood to the separate blood system of her fetus. Thus a mother passes immunoglobulins to her child, providing valuable immunity. Separately, as a fetus' red cells complete their normal life span, their oxygen-carrying portion is processed. Some of it becomes bilirubin, which crosses the placenta to the mother and is eliminated with her body wastes. Some Christians may conclude that since blood fractions can pass to another person in this natural setting, they could accept a blood fraction derived from blood plasma or cells.
Thus some may feel that they could accept blood fractions because they can pass from one person to another in this natural setting.
This is why some Witnesses may feel that they can accept blood fractions whilst others feel that should refuse them.
It is also interesting to note that it is almost impossible to completely remove ALL blood from an animal by bleeding it. Thus even when you eat bled meat, there is bound to be some small amount of blood left in it. Will God hate you because of this? Of course not! As said, it's almost impossible to remove every last drop of blood from every capillary in the flesh. But by bleeding the animal you are showing respect for the fact that the blood represents the life, and are figuratively returning the life to God.
So does Jehovah view every fraction, chemical and all of the other things in the blood as sacred? I'm not God, so I couldn't tell you yes or no to that! Blood as a whole though is certainly sacred as shown in the Bible, and should not be misused by people who wish to follow Jehovah.
On your point about Hemoglobin, as said in my first post the Awake of August 2006 notes that this is a serious challenge to Christians:
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However, compared with other blood fractions, the HBOC presents more challenges to conscientious Christians, who seek to obey Gods law on blood. Why? As long as the HBOC is derived from blood, there are two objections that may be raised. One, the HBOC carries out the key function of a primary component of blood, the red cells. Two, hemoglobin, from which the HBOC is derived, makes up a significant portion of that component. Regarding this and similar products, then, Christians face a very serious decision. They must carefully and prayerfully meditate on Bible Principles concerning the sacredness of blood. With a keen desire to maintain a good relationship with Jehovah, each must be guided by his Bible-trained conscience. - Galatians 6:5 "For each one will carry his own load."
As the Awake article notes there, these Hemoglobin Based Oxygen Carriers present more challenges to conscientious Christians compared to other blood fractions. Exactly because the hemoglobin not only makes up such a large percentage of the one of the primary components of blood - the red cells, but also because it carries out the key function of the red cells.
Again the way you phrased your question, almost makes it seem as though this is a treatment that all Jehovah's Witnesses would gladly use, which again, is not the case! Many Witnesses would refuse such a treatment, because as you said, hemoglobin makes up a very significant portion of the red blood cell, one of the four primary components of blood.
The Watchtower Society claim that they are God's chosen channel and they teach Bible standards! Will you pls. answer us all, why you ban every components, "even and because you are not thinking as God" why they now admit haemoglobin, as a matter of conscience, when they shortly after 1948 started to ban vaccinations, later on organ transplantations and the use of blood and derivates, where they have disfellowshipped and shunned members for taking an injection of vaccine against e.g. smallpox and lockjaw?, and organs and derivates, opposition to and what comes forth in 2 Corinthians 1:24!
1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
I like to repeat myself and be living up to your statement that the members of the Governing Body totally have misunderstand the Christian law and they act like marionettes from God's opponent like those Jesus mentioned in John 8:44, simply because they for decades have teach their members conscience that vaccinations, organs and blood and derivates hereof are a no-no and therefore many mature JW's still reject to take a vaccination, organ or derivates from blood, simply because they have been teach that they will loose Jehovah's favour and the everlasting life!
Will it now also be up to each JW's own conscience to decide in question of fornication, as long as it's only "derivates" from fornication e.g. petting or the like, just a little part of fornication, like the derivates when blood still is a no-no?
Quote:Quote:Teleologist Wrote:
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According to JW doctrine it's not really the physical blood of Jesus that saves us. It's what his blood symbolizes that saves us, namely, his giving up his perfect life as a human to ransom the human race from the sin of Adam. Jesus' perfect human life consisted of his blood and his flesh. That's why JW's when they celebrate the memorial of Christ death, pass the wine and the bread. The wine represents Christ's blood and the bread represents Christ's flesh. If taking a blood transfusion is showing disrespect for the shed blood of Jesus as the Watchtower teaches then doesn't it logically follow that taking an organ transplant shows disrespect for Jesus' flesh that he gave on our behalf?
It's not the same. God allowed man to eat the flesh of animals, but prohibited the consumption of their blood - as it says at Genesis 9:3,4
Consuming blood, in any form, for sustenance shows disrespect not only for the sacredness of blood but also for the sacrifice of Christ's shed blood. However, if consuming flesh, in any form (in this case an organ transplant), showed disrespect for Jesus' flesh as you say, then surely Jehovah would also have prohibited the consumption of animal flesh for the same reason as he prohibited the consumption of blood? You cannot compare flesh and blood in this manner because they do not have the same Biblical prohibitions related to them. Also remember that it was Jesus blood that he offered for the forgiveness of our sins. Hebrews 9:12:
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he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]
I think you totally have missed what the scripture really tells us starting with Genesis 9:1-7!
9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein
Why does the Watchtower Society allow JW's to use condoms and P pills when abstain from blood is a commandment and violation of God's law to the whole mankind? Isn't to resist, be fruitful, and multiply and replenish the earth mentioned in the same commandments to Noah, a violation of God's law. Where in the Scriptures does it comes forth that we have replenish the earth?
9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Does the Bible state that it was forbidden to use the blood for medical treatments, where no life has been taken! How can you state that blood is holy, when Jehovah has created the Bat, the Leech and the Mosquitoes, which solely eat blood as nutria and sustain life on animal and humans blood?
Again can Jehovah violate his own law? No of course not!!!!!!
9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Have you ever thought of, that a murder which kills people with poison have not sheddeth any part of the physical blood, but he still will be responsible, like Jim Jones and the men behind the Watchtower Society in form of bloodguilt, which you can se in Aid to Bible understanding under the Topic "Bloodguilt" where the society have condemned themselves like David did!
Quote:Quote:Teleologist Wrote:
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This is all outdated information. JW's are now allowed to have procedures done where blood is removed from their body, stored, and transfused back into them several hours later without the use of an external device that could be considered an extention of their circulatory system.
Again, this is outdated information. Per a Watchtower article in the year 2000, JW's can have their blood stored for a period of time, so long as it's part of a "current therapy".
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The details may vary, and new procedures, treatments, and tests will certainly be developed. It is not our place to analyze each variation and render a decision. A Christian must decide for himself how his own blood will be handled in the course of a surgical procedure, medical test, or current therapy. Ahead of time, he should obtain from the doctor or technician the facts about what might be done with his blood during the procedure. Then he must decide according to what his conscience permits.
However, the 1/3/1989 Watchtower explains this procedure in a little more detail:
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Some surgeons believe that it is advantageous for a patient's blood to be diluted during surgery. Thus, at the start of an operation, they direct some blood to storage bags outside a patient's body and replace such with nonblood fluids; later, the blood is allowed to flow from the bags back to the patient.
However it then goes on to say:
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Since Christians do not let their blood be stored, some physicians have adapted this procedure, arranging the equipment in a circuit that is constantly linked to the patient's circulatory system. Some Christians have accepted this, others have refused. Again, each individual must decide whether he would consider the blood diverted in such a hemodilution circuit to be similar to that flowing through a heart/lung machine, or he would think of it as blood that left him and therefore should be disposed of.
This shows your assertion that "Per a Watchtower article in the year 2000, JW's can have their blood stored for a period of time, so long as it's part of a "current therapy"" is clearly not true.
Quote:Teleologist Wrote:
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It would be more accurate to say that Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions because they believe what the Watchower tells them Acts 15:29 means. This is easy to prove. If the Watchtower came out tomorrow and said that Acts 15:29 doesn't forbid blood transfusions then that is what all JW's would start teaching, right? It was the same with organ transplants. For 13 years JW's accepted the Watchtower view that organ transplants were canabalism and some even died because of this teaching. When the Watchtower changed it's view and allowed organ transplants then all the JW's changed right along with them. The ban on organ transplants was never based on the Bible. It was a false teaching that was eventually dropped. Perhaps the current ban on blood will meet the same fate.
So you mean that it is Ok when I, as an non perfect man tell you that I'm responsible for one of your bellowed ones death, maybe your child, but you know that you shall forgive me, not 77 times but unnumbered, when I shake my shoulders and claim that I'm not perfect.
This is nonsense and people who are responsible for other people's death, purposely or by means of poison, doctrines or even a car without a driver if the handbrake hasn't been activated, they will be held responsible, every time and when somebody dies, like Jim Jones would have been if he had survived!
Quote:2. As said, the Governing Body are not perfect, and neither are the rest of us. However we firmly believe that this is God's organisation which is being directed by him. We believe that the Governing Body is under the direction of God's Holy Spirit, and though at times they may have the wrong viewpoint on some matters, they will always be directed to remove any wrong ideas.
You are totally wrong, their man created organisation and numbers means more for them than the individual, which Jesus gave a very fine example at, with the one who had 99 sheep's in the fold but went out looking for the one he had lost, not the 99 self good scribes and Pharisees!
That is also totally wrong and a declaration of nonsense, simply because and when they changed from wearing the Gold plated Cross and Crown and change from teaching it was a cross Jesus was crucified at, opposite what comes forth in John 20:25 where nails and hands are in plural, everybody change the teachings and if anybody even dare to go against the Society they get kicked out, disfellowshipped of their religion as an apostate and shunned. Family members, friend's and other members are under the pressure to be kicked out them selves if they even grate such a person. That is even valid if they dare to accuse the watchtower Society to cooperate with United nations as a full NGO members, they kicked them out, no criticism at all will be tolerated, opposite all the dirt the Society have placed at other religions windshield, during their lifetime.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/test.html
As I have mentioned several times you can't discuss feelings, but you can discuss facts and what you state is that you have feelings that the Watchtower Society is God's chosen channel and lead by his holy spirit. Try to believe they are not and send that message to others in the Congregations and you will be kicked out of your religion!!!!
You haven't placed one single proof of evidence for that the Watchtower Society is God's chosen channel on earth. Not even that they have been chosen by Jesus Christ, like and Moses gets the stone or Jesus was blessed from heaven!
I can guide your attention to what Jesus stated, that they should be recognized by their fruits. In Matthew 24:49-51 it comes forth that there also will be an evil slave, which beats it's fellow men, because the Lord is long time underway and when you look at the Society's history, with all the false years they have announced, 1914, 25, 75 and the 1914 Generation and members of the Governing Body are growing old, in the Tower they certainly are unsatisfied with the delay!
24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 describe clearly that they are false prophets!!!! [/b]
18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
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Some Christians might feel that taking into their bodies any tissue or body part from another human is cannibalistic. They might hold that the transplanted human material is intended to become part of the recipient's body to keep him alive and functioning. They might not see it as fundamentally different from consuming flesh through the mouth. Such feelings may arise from considering that God did not make specific provision for man to eat the flesh of his fellowman when he made provision for humans to eat the flesh of animals that had been drained of their life-sustaining blood.
The same article also balances that by saying:
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Other sincere Christians today may feel that the Bible does not definitely rule out medical transplants of human organs. They may reason that in some cases the human material is not expected to become a permanent part of the recipient's body. Body cells are said to be replaced about every seven years, and this would be true of any human body parts that would be transplanted. It may be argued, too, that organ transplants are different from cannibalism since the "donor" is not killed to supply food. In some cases persons nearing death actually have willed body parts to be used for transplants.
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While the Bible specifically forbids consuming blood, there is no Biblical command pointedly forbidding the taking in of other human tissue. For this reason, each individual faced with making a decision on this matter should carefully and prayerfully weigh matters and then decide conscientiously what he or she could or could not do before God. It is a matter for personal decision.
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But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.
What about our belief on blood? Why do I believe it? Well first of all, the Bible clearly says at Acts 15:29 to "abstain
from blood" and also says the same at Acts 15:20, I cannot think of any other way this can be interpreted, other than "abstain
from blood". It seems pretty self explanatory to me.
I even looked at the Greek text and then looked up the word used for abstain (Greek - Απεχεσθαι Transliteration - Apekhesthai) in a Greek-English Lexicon, and it means exactly what the Bible says, to abstain or to keep away from something!
A quote from one of out books explains this well:
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Some persons contend that the Bible forbids the eating of blood as a food and that this is fundamentally different from accepting a blood transfusion, a medical procedure that was not known in Bible times. Is that position valid?
There is no denying that in Bible times God's law had particular application to consuming blood as food. Intravenous administration of blood was not then practiced. But, even though the Bible did not directly discuss modern medical techniques involving blood, it did in fact anticipate and cover these in principle.
Note, for example, the command that Christians "keep abstaining . . . from blood." (Acts 15:29) Nothing is there stated that would justify making a distinction between taking blood into the mouth and taking it into the blood vessels. And, really, is there in principle any basic difference?
Second, our publications point to many other scriptures throughout the Bible supporting this. I have looked up these scriptures and I honestly cannot find any reason why they would contradict our belief that receiving blood transfusions is against God's Command to "abstain
from blood". All I can see is that they infact agree with this. They show that blood as a whole is viewed as sacred by Jehovah, and must not be misused or disrespected by those who wish to follow God.
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The questions are?
Has God created animals, which sustain life on blood, if the blood was holy?
We have a proverb saying: Even a blind chicken can find a gold corn!
What the Governing Body and all other religious leaders today mostly of them have been lead by other blinds and therefore they fall into the same pit, like Jesus stated, instead of following the 2 commandments Jesus gave us, which are built at principles! Sometimes the light must be shining at dark places, even into the Tower, as the french painter Lutrek quoted!
We are not talking about marriage but whether blood is holy or not, not about the animals itself or if animals get married or not. The animals have bee created to sustain life at other animal and humans blood and if the blood is holy as you state, you aren't asgree with the Society, where the Watchtower Society have changed their mind, that the blood isn't holy, but what it is, representing life!
So animals are allowed to take a little bit of our lives and JW's are now allowed to get use of 97% of the haemoglobin in one ejection and the 3% donuts in another injection, but if one even dare to take the haemoglobin and the allowed donut together in on shoot, the JW's will be automatically cut of and kicked out of their religion.
Even due to above the Watchtower claim still to teach Bible standards, even that theyr allow haemoglobin, 97 % of the non water blood!
Pls. explain it for us all because I haven't meet anybody until today able to explain why!
Pls. explain for us all when Josef and Mariah get married by an official representative or other person and maybe you have forgotten to read what comes forth in the Song of Solomon! Even that it can be directed to Jesus Christ but is without any doubts clear and not to be misunderstood, only by religious men who misrepresent and put their bad conscience on others for what they did in their younger days, like the misuse of masturbation, when they misrepresent why Ornan gets killed, which wasn't because he spilled his seminal fluid at the ground, but because he reject to continue the family tribe! genesis 38:6-10!
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Has God created humans where twins in some situations share the same blood, equal to medical treatment with blood and derivates if the blood wasn't a metaphor for the life itself?
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Do you mean that and since twins are identical they are allowed to transfuse each other and the Bat, the Leech and the Mosquitoes are a result of imperfection and do you also meant that it's Ok that the Watchtower Society cooperate with Companies who kill animals and store tons and other tons of animals blood and use it in a process to create the product Hemopure from
www.biopure.com and it afterwards will be transfused into JW's veins? In opposition to what comes forth in Leviticus 17:13 with a potential risk for being infected with the animal variant of CJD mad cow disease?
How do you explain that a Jew and an Alien was allowed to eat all the blood in a carcass, in a distress situation, only a ceremonial bath before evening and the matter was settled between God and the Society.
17:15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean.
Furthermore Jesus stated in Matthew 12:9-12!
12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Quote:so, Talkative, I notice that most, if not all of your Bible quotations appear to be from the King James Version of the Bible. For someone who seems to see himself as a Witness for Jehovah, and despite the fact that you use Gods name frequently in your posts, I find it interesting that you use a Bible translation in which God's name, Jehovah, has been deliberately removed from the scriptures in all but a few instances
Does it disturb you? Do you mean that people only are allowed to use the Watchtowers manipulated Bible version and the name, Jehovah when they are members of the Watchtower Society, even that it's been used in Akesons translation?
The Watchtower Society have deliberately placed Jehovah's name several places in their Bible, New World Translation, even that there isn't any documentation or evidence, that the name has been many of the places where they have changed from it's origin, in documents found!
Have you ever thought of what comes forth in Revelation 22:18-21! and look at the video in the link below.
22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6861723185926041712&q=watchtower
Quote:Quote:Quote:
At this the serpent said to the woman: "you positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad."
Genesis 3:4,5
Eve was perfect and yet still allowed herself to be deceived by this lie, how much more so then should followers of Jehovah, who unlike Adam and Eve are imperfect, always be as careful as possible never to expose themselves to the deliberate lies that people spread about Jehovah's Witnesses.
So, if you think I'm going to click on any of those links that you "warmly recommend", think again. I would have to be crazy to go trudging through Internet sites like those!
Its better to be safe, rather than sorry I think.
Your conclusion will then be, avoid any vaccination, organs medical treatments with blood, derivates and medicine, because there are people who has been ill and died from vaccinations and medicine. I recommend you to go to the other, by men created religious organisation Christian Science then you can be sure that no one will die due to taking any medicine or maybe I can recommend you the Amish people they don't pollute the environment like members of the Watchtower Society does!!
Quote:Well this is the end of this very long reply, I must apologise for the great length again, its a lot to read in one go but I felt it was necessary to answer as many of your points as possible. I also must apologise for this taking so long, I must admit it is rather embarrassing to say it will be posted tomorrow
and then its still not finished almost a week later
But I have had other things taking up a lot of my time.
Let me say this one last time now; I do not wish to reply to this topic further.
Can we trust in you now? With respect to your repeated statements, you haven't shown it before, that you're Yes is a Yes and your No is a No!! As Jesus stated?????
Quote:As Neo pointed out this topic has reached a dead end, it has gone on for 48 pages now and I do not see any agreements, only arguments. It's obvious we aren't going to get anywhere with each other, you have your beliefs Tele, Talk, which you obviously feel to be the truth, but I also have my beliefs, which I feel to be the truth. Thus I am not prepared to stay here and argue endlessly on things that we will never agree on. I do however respect the fact that you have free will like we all do and may choose for yourself what you want to believe. But I have used my free will to follow Jehovah, and I fully believe that the Watchtower Society represents Jehovah's Organisation.
And it is there I think I should leave it, otherwise this is just going to keep going on and on and on and on
So, once again, thank you for your time!
My pleasure!
Let me take the liberty to guide your attention to what comes forth in Colossians 2:8-23!
2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Ecclesiastes 1:18!
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
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People can't hear and carry the truth, because the lies are tickling their ears!
Jeremiah 8:8!
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
Again you have hopefully come by your free will into this forum and put dirt on our screens without addressing what lies you are talking about.
It's simple postulates from your side with no hold in the reality and when it comes to facts, you excuse that you haven't been involved and disclaim, but you for sure postulate things which isn't correct but continue to spread the Watchtower doctrines without thinking on what you really are going on with and only have references from them, a man created organisation, like all other religious movements, who have placed themselves at Moses chair and play masters over the crowd!
I like to guide your attention to what comes forth in Colossians 2:8-23 if you for some reasons will wake up of your mind controlled situation and really make your personal thoughts and have other references that the Watchtower Society's, I can then warmly recommend you to read the Bible without the Watchtower and Awake magazines as blinders:
2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Here is another quotation from another topic and maybe it can refresh what you have been missing in question of the Watchtower Society's teachings who have sent thousands and other thousand of Brothers, sisters and their Children into a premature death, where I have personal experienced!
Quote: Regarding Vaccinations here is what the Watchtower had published on the subject many decades ago.
*** The Golden Age 1921 Oct 12 p.17 ***
Vaccination never prevented anything and never will, and is the most barbarous practice... Use your rights as American citizens to forever abolish the devilish practice of vaccination
*** The Golden Age 1923 January 3rd, p.214 ***
The public is not generally aware of how large an industry is the manufacture of serums, anti-toxins and vaccines, or that big business controls the whole industry...
...the boards of health endeavor to start an epidemic of smallpox, diphtheria, or typhoid that they may reap a golden harvest by inoculating an unthinking community for the very purpose of disposing of this manufactured filth...
Vaccination summed up is the most unnatural, unhygienic, barbaric, filthy, abhorrent, and most dangerous system of infection known. Its vile poison taints, corrupts, and pollutes the blood of the healthy, resulting in ulcers, syphilis, scrofula, erysipelas, tuberculosis, cancer, tetanus, insanity, and death.
*** The Golden Age 1924 Jan 16 p.250 ***
It has never been proven that a single disease is due to germs.
*** The Golden Age 1929 Aug 25 pp.751-754 ***
Disease [is] caused by fermentation and heat... not germs. [It cannot be] proven [that] any disease was caused by germs [including] so-called infectious diseases... chicken pox and small pox
*** The Golden Age 1929 May 1 p.502 ***
Thinking people would rather have smallpox than vaccination, because the latter sows the seed of syphilis, cancers, escema, erysipelas, scrofula, consumption, even leprosy and many other loathsome affections. Hence the practice of vaccination is a crime, an outrage and a delusion
The Golden Age, November 13, 1929, pp. 106-107 ***
Avoid serum inoculations and vaccinations as they pollute the blood stream with their filthy pus.
*** The Golden Age, Feb 4 1931 pp. 293, 294, 297 The Sacredness of Human Blood (Reasons why vaccination is unscriptural) ***
...the vaccination law reduces the father and mother to mere slavery, almost as bad as the colored people were in, when their children were put up on the block and sold. In many slave-sale cases the mother and father were even forbidden to shed tears.
Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood.
Vaccination has never saved a human life. It does not prevent smallpox.
*** The Golden Age, Feb 4 1931 p. 293 The Sacredness of Human Blood (Reasons why vaccination is unscriptural) ***
Quite likely there is some connection between the violation of human blood [vaccines] and the spread of demonism...
*** The Golden Age, Aug. 5, 1931, pp. 727-728 ***
Mr. West mentions so-called "syphilis." Why does he not prove that there is such a disease? He simply accepts the existence of the protean monster on faith.... We do well to bear in mind that among the drugs, serums, vaccines, surgical operations, etc., of the medical profession, there is nothing of value save an occasional surgical procedure. Their whole so-called "science" grew out of Egyptian black magic and has not lost its demonological character. By their own admission, more deaths are caused by their practice every year in this country than from any other cause. We shall be in a sad plight when we place the welfare of the race in their hands.
Readers of The Golden Age know the unpleasant truth about the clergy; they should also know the truth about the medical profession, which sprang from the same demon-worshipping shamans (doctor-priests) as did the "doctors of divinity." ... These readers know the truth about the politicians, who also descended from the same line of "children God" or "children of the Sun" as did the priests and medicine men. Hippocrates was the grandson of Apollo, and... medicine originated in demonology and spent its time until the last century and a half trying to exorcise demons. During the past half century it has tried to exorcise germs. Its methods are the same in both efforts at exorcism, and instead on injuring the demon or the germ, the injury is often to the patient
*** Consolation, March 22, 1939, p. 21 ***
...the irrefutably logical fact that serums and vaccines are products of contamination...rise in cancer is attributed to the use of serums...for the best part they are but handicaps to inherent healing forces of the human body...these are by-products of pus matter...in reality and action it is worse than the proverbial "seven plagues"...One may go through life without having serious manifestations of what has been injected into his blood-stream, thus thinking he was "immunized", but, suddenly, it may begin its satanic work on his child, or even "unto third and fourth generation".
*** Consolation, May 31, 1939, p. 3 ***
[Vaccination is a "cruel hoax" on mankind by Satan himself.]
Seems very weird does it not?
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