When Discrimination Makes Sense

i have to admit that at my stage in life :wink: , i usually read "easy" stuff .
currently reading some of john mortimers books .
btw he's a good social commentator imo .
had to read too many "textbooks" while working - mainly loafing and enjoying life now .
history and travel books i consider heavy lifting - but i do enjoy them now and then .
hbg

btw i did see d'souza on some talk shows - must have been a while ago .
he certainly isn't my cup of tea .
j k galbraith is more to my liking ; i did read a fair number of his books ;
'ambassador's journal - a personal account of the kennedy years ' ,
i found particularly interesting .
was he too much left-leaning for you ?
hbg

btw i did see d'souza on some talk shows - must have been a while ago .
he certainly isn't my cup of tea .
j k galbraith is more to my liking ; i did read a fair number of his books ;
'ambassador's journal - a personal account of the kennedy years ' ,
i found it particularly interesting .
hbg

btw i did see d'souza on some talk shows - must have been a while ago .
he certainly isn't my cup of tea .
j k galbraith is more to my liking ; i did read a fair number of his books ;
'ambassador's journal - a personal account of the kennedy years " ,
i found quite insightful .
hbg

Some good books for you to look at - Hamberger.

"Race and Culture" by Dr. Thomas Sowell--a masterpiece- the title says it all.

"The Skeptical Environmentalist"- by Bjorn Lomberg--Dr.Lomborg tells us why we are not all going to die soon from Global Warming.

"How the Mind Works" by Steven Pinker

"The Blank Slate' by Steven Pinker--(The Modern Denial of Human Nature)

and


Modern History by Paul Johnson-(History which is not, as usual, biased leftward.

"Why are so many Blacks in jail?...It is because they usually cannot afford a defense."
-MarionT

Some suggest, and I agree, that Blacks comprise such a large percentage of the prison population because "so many" of them commit crimes.

"I can't remember the figures exactly but there are 10 blacks in jail to every white. Blacks are only 15% of the population at most. To say that is socio-economic is stupid. Blacks are discriminated against officially and do not have access to good lawyers. Otherwise, why would there be such differences in incarceration?"
-MarionT

To say that the relative higher numbers of imprisoned Blacks is due to discrimination is unsubstantiated and nonsensical rhetoric.

If one is going to make the claim that the relative high incidents of Blacks being arrested and convicted for committing crimes is the result of immoral and systematical racial discrimination practices on the part of the law enforcement, they should be able to provide some reasonable evidence in support of their claim. Other than your belief, you have not supplied any evidence of what you are claiming. Your challenge then, (IMO) of the statistical proof of Black over-representation in criminal arrests and convictions, is extremely weak; and in reality, nonexistent.

D'Souza contends that if racism is the cause of Black over-representation in criminal justice system as some claim, then we should expect to see that the discrepancies between Blacks and Whites have decreased over time. But why should we expect the discrepancy to close over time? He correctly notes that no one seriously "argues that the criminal justice system is more racist now than twenty or fifty years ago." So, if racism is the explanation for the racial differential, than one would expect the differential in the criminal justice system to lessen as racism in general decreases. Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis to me. However, he found that just the opposite has occurred. In fact, "a larger portion of blacks are in prison today [1995] than at virtually any time in the twentieth century."

Furthermore, he supplies independent evidence (independent of the arresting agencies- the police) that tends counter the claim of racial bias in the arresting of Black suspects. D'Souza highlights his findings of his study of victimization surveys that are conducted by the Department of Justice annually. Crime victims were asked about the circumstances surrounding their ordeal. We must presume that the victims want the offenders caught, tried, and convicted. Consequently, victims of criminal acts are highly unlikely to lie about the race of perpetrator. And as D'Souza notes, these victimization surveys can be compared to FBI arrest statistics to see if there exists a large discrepancy between "the racial proportion of victim identifications and the racial proportion of actual [police] arrests." He found that, " victimization surveys tend to confirm that blacks commit violent crimes at a much higher rate than whites," and that, '"this finding was based on reports by victims of all races, including African Americans."

I think this whole thing is somewhat of a catch 22. Is racism a factor in why so many black people are in jail? Of course. There is, and always will be to a certain extent, racism. But the average guy on the street has nothing to do with that. If I was a cab driver, I wouldn't go through those bad neighborhoods at night either, I don't care what you call me. So you can philosophize all you want about what the cause is, but you can't blame someone for reacting to the effect.

I also think that this "ghetto" culture is a big problem. In most inner-city neighborhoods, school and hard work are considered lame. Instead it's all about massive ego, demands for "respect" which are totally unjustified, love of money, distrust of people, selfishness, violence and greed. As Chris Rock says, you get more respect coming out of prison than you do coming out of college. There is a major cultural problem here and you can't put it all on the white man.

Situations like the one brought up are never as black and white as presented. In different countries different cultural/ethinic groups stand out as the ones who are overrepresented in crime statistics (In the Netherlands it is the youths of Moroccan descent, for example). What does seem to be consistent, however, is that all these groups are always from the economically weakest strata of society. Before the mass immigration of the sixties, the people overrepresented in Dutch crime statistics still came from the underprivileged districts of the bigger towns even though all were white.

Racism may or may not be a factor in this (I myself consider it very likely), but it is not the only consideration. The structure of the US legal system is for example also a factor, not only in the imbalanced accesss to proper legal representation, but also due to a higher number of convictions on the basis of plea bargaining. A poor person, who cannot afford to post bail and cannot afford a good attorny has the choice to stay in jail for a long period waiting for a trial, or choose to strike a plea bargain for a lesser crime and be convicted and let out. For those of you who have never spent time in jail, it is hard to imagine how strong the desire to get out becomes. Many innocent people are willing to admit to a crime they did not commit if it will relieve the torture of incarceration, especially if your trust in the legal system has already been undermined.

Paaskynen- I think the point you made about the consistent fact that within different countries, the groups who are overrepresented in crime statistics are also from the lowest socio-economic strata is key. As is your statement about the subsequent lack of trust by these groups in their various countries' legal systems.

But I think that concept of lack of trust in the legal system can be widened to include a lack of trust or confidence in a secure placement in society in general by these populations. And because there is a lack of trust or belief in the fact that a society holds the same rewards or esteem for them as it does for other populations who have historically been more "acceptable", there are differing attitudes and behaviors. So, even if institutionalized racism in the legal system or the society at large is no longer an issue (which I would find hard to believe in any society - it's human nature)- I don't believe you can negate that there are lingering effects. So at the core, racism is still a factor, in the behavior and in the response to that behavior.

Having said that, if the members of a population are going to engage in certain behaviors moreso than other populations do, for whatever reason, they need to expect that there will be conclusions drawn about the likelihood of a particular person engaging in that particular behavior based on their inclusion through race or religious affiliation or nationality. That's just common sense. Unfortunately, it impacts a lot of innocent, law abiding people in a negative way.

Atavistic said:

This is a direct result of racism. Haven't you ever been in a situation where you know you were looked down on and were not accepted, and your response to that situation was, "Hell, I don't want to be accepted by you people anyway!"? It's a defense mechanism. The massive ego or braggadoccio and all the other anti-social attitudes and behavior are in response to not being deemed acceptable by that society in the first place. Kind of like, "You don't like me the way I am, well here you go - now you really aint gonna like me - deal with that".
People often reject what they aren't allowed to have. It's too painful to walk around pining for something that you know won't be forthcoming-so you create another reality for yourself.
Sometimes nonproductive and harmful, sure, but at least it's yours.
There is a cultural problem - there always has been. The inability of people to accept what they find different and thus problematic. That comes with all sorts of repercussions for a society.

So in other words, you're relieving individuals of all responsibility for their own actions. This is a naive and dangerous way of thinking, in my opinion. Like I said, of course racism is a part of it, but this "they don't accept me, so I'm gonna rebel" crap is exactly that, crap. That is the attitude of a spoiled child and I'm not buying it.....

Never! Personal responsibility is my middle name. I'm just explaining where and why I think it may have originated and evolved. As I said, it's not the most productive or intelligent choice for someone to make.