Foxfyre wrote:Well it certainly escapes me how Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise, are such a subversive group, and it certainly sounds more dangerous to me to call them 'dangerous' than does any 'danger' they could possibly present.
We're not talking about a "narrowly defined instance" here. We're talking about a group of conservative Christians who want to tear down the wall that separates church and state. They want laws based on the Bible. It's called Christianism. And it does not comprise of a few weirdo's on the fringe that have little or no following.
From the conservative newspaper Washington Times;
Quote:SOURCEPresident Bush and the Republican Party in his home state of Texas are being criticized by Democrats on the touchy issue of whether America is a Christian nation.
At its convention in Austin, the Texas Republican Party voted to reaffirm a plank in its platform that disputes "the myth of the separation of church and state." The plank celebrates the United States as "a Christian nation."
An official of an organization affiliated with the Democratic National Committee castigated the action.
"This is part and parcel of who the GOP and their conservative base are," said David Harris, spokesman for the National Jewish Democratic Committee. "While this is nothing new, it certainly raises to new excesses the lengths this Republican Party is going to in order to tear down the wall separating church and state.
"It is a wall deeply cherished by American Jews -- and many other Americans for that matter," Mr. Harris added.
A prominent Democrat called on Mr. Bush to repudiate the Texas party's action.
"The Texas party has been off the charts for a long time," said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute. "Frankly, I would hope President Bush would repudiate that. We are calling on him to do so."
Mr. Zogby said the Texas conservative platform "goes against what Bush has said and flies in face of what he has stood for, but it reflects more a policy of [U.S. Rep.] Tom DeLay and some of those hard-liners on the Christian right."
From a speech given by a Baptist on a Baptist website;
Quote:I have given this long account of the Baptist heritage for religious liberty for a reason. It serves as a preface to what I am about to say and must say. The Baptist presence -- and it is a significant presence, upwards from 25% at last count -- within the "Religious Right" is an aberration. It is a repudiation of all that Baptists stood for until the last 20 years. That may surprise you since so many Baptists are prominent in the leadership of the "Religious Right" which has been working overtime to tear down the wall of separation between church and state. Surprise alone, however, is not an adequate emotion for this situation. I now must tell you why you should be alarmed by this development.
Baptists are "born again" Christians. No one is born a Baptist. We are the ones who believe that each person must come to faith by individual and personal conviction and commitment. Baptists have always believed in the power of the gospel to win hearts and change lives. All the gospel needs is a free and open hearing. That is why religious liberty is so important to Baptists. For us, real faith can never be produced by compulsion or coercion. For us, real faith can never be passed down like an heirloom from one generation to the next. For us, real faith must be accepted freely by individual commitment and conviction.
The "Religious Right" has a different understanding of faith. They intend to make the United States a Christian nation by political action and legislation. For them, politics is a mission field. For them, getting voters to the polls is like raising armies for crusades to reclaim the holy land. For them, faith can be spread by inquisition, imposition, and coercion.
SOURCE
Let me say that I believe all, or most all, those who want to destroy the wall that seperates church and state are conservative Christians that believe in the Rapture as defined by the Robertson's, Falwell's and so on.
But I also believe not all people who believe in Rapture want to destroy the church and state seperation as defined in our Constitution.
Many Americans identify themselves as Christians. This includes liberals, moderates, conservatives, blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, Democrats, Republicans and independents. The values of Christianity closely mirror the values of liberalism that this nation was founded upon, often to the extent that some Christians believe that they are the values this nation was founded upon.
Take poverty, for example. Christ tells us, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me (Matt. 25:40)". Helping the poor is a Christian value. This is mirrored in the Declaration of Independence when it says that "All men are created equal". Rich, poor, liberal, conservative -- we are all equal. We are all Americans. We should pursue the common good because it is good for all.
It's amazing to me, xingu, that you cannot see the hypocrisy in your own camp.
You posted a link on 'Christianism' that is from The Daily Kos, a political website that expresses a liberal viewpoint.
So, what does this unabashed liberal blog say to convince us of the grave danger of 'tearing down the wall of separation between church and state' ?
He uses the command of Christ to help the poor as a justification for the liberal political agenda!
Are you onboard with this guy that the political process should indeed be used to fulfill the commands of Christ? That this is the true role of government?
May I point out to RL that Christianity isn't the only religion that commands the people to help the poor?
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:May I point out to RL that Christianity isn't the only religion that commands the people to help the poor?
Maybe not. But you'd be hard put to name any religion that puts the command into practice to the extent that Christianity does. You would be hard put to name other religions that have significantly established schools, hospitals, thrift shops, soup kitchens, leper colonies, homeless shelters, etc. etc. etc. for the good of all, not just those of their particular faith to the extent that Christians have done this. It is a cornerstone and foundation of Christian faith and practice.
Foxfyre wrote:Wolf_ODonnell wrote:May I point out to RL that Christianity isn't the only religion that commands the people to help the poor?
Maybe not. But you'd be hard put to name any religion that puts the command into practice to the extent that Christianity does. You would be hard put to name other religions that have significantly established schools, hospitals, thrift shops, soup kitchens, leper colonies, homeless shelters, etc. etc. etc. for the good of all, not just those of their particular faith to the extent that Christians have done this. It is a cornerstone and foundation of Christian faith and practice.
Try the Muslim religion.
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/review-858-p327/$File/irrc_858_Krafess.pdf
http://www.answers.com/topic/zakat
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42567-2005Apr10.html
http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/charity/charity_zakat10b.html
Try the Buddhist religion.
http://www.google.com/Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Buddhism/Engaged_Buddhism/Organizations/
One of the problems with Christians who give this type of reply is their ignorance of anything outside of their religion. Closed minds, ignorance and an obscene pride in their religion makes them think their religion is the only one out there who bother to help people outside of their own religion.
The Christian religion is the richest religion in the world so it has the opportunity to help a greater number of people. It also means its followers are in lesser need than those in poorer countries. So it would make sense that other poorer religions with a greater number of poor and needy people will contribute more of their resources to those of their own in need.
Wealth or dogma does not make the Christian religion better then any other religion in any respect.
Maybe not. But you'd be hard put to name any religion that puts the command into practice to the extent that Christianity does. You would be hard put to name other religions that have significantly established schools, hospitals, thrift shops, soup kitchens, leper colonies, homeless shelters, etc. etc. etc. for the good of all, not just those of their particular faith to the extent that Christians have done this. It is a cornerstone and foundation of Christian faith and practice.
Sir, I TEACH comparitive religions
Foxfyre wrote:Sir, I TEACH comparitive religions
That ^^^ gives you no special authority (and please remember to use spellcheck).
The post that your sentence ^^^ is attached to is clear evidence of your tremendous knowledge gaps in terms of what various religious groups offer to their surrounding communities.
It's positively frightening that you are in a position of instructing others. That's how the world gets into the messes it does. People without knowledge teaching others.
<shudders>
A gated mind is a dangerous thing.
Foxfyre wrote:Sir, I TEACH comparitive religions
That ^^^ gives you no special authority (and please remember to use spellcheck).
The post that your sentence ^^^ is attached to is clear evidence of your tremendous knowledge gaps in terms of what various religious groups offer to their surrounding communities.
It's positively frightening that you are in a position of instructing others. That's how the world gets into the messes it does. People without knowledge teaching others.
<shudders>
A gated mind is a dangerous thing.
Oh, we're blaming liberals now are we?
Let's see... who is it that it's in charge of Iran? The Conservatives. (Religious fundamentalist conservatives, but conservatives nonetheless).
Who's in charge of Saudi Arabia and therefore responsible for its tyrannical treatment of its people and women? (Well, the Head of State is a Liberal, but the majority of the policy makers are Conservatives).
Who was in charge of Afghanistan and responsible for keeping Osama bin Laden safe? The Consevative Taleban.
In fact, quite a lot of the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism can be linked to states (if we're to believe the Bush administration) that have Conservative political parties, except for Iraq and Syria's Ba'th Party which are actually left-wing.
Sir, I TEACH comparitive religions.
Now for the sake of argument, please list a few Islamic schools that are open to the general public.
Please list oh three or four hospitals and/or universities that Islam in the name of Islam has built and makes available to everybody in other than hugely predominant Islamic nations.
Where are the soup kitchens in New York City or Chicago or Los Angeles that are organized by Buddhists or Hindus or Moslems? There must be at least a few. But if you go seek them out, you're much more likely to find them organized and staffed by Christian congregations or organizations.
Exact figures are not easy to track. Faith-based nonprofits saw donations increase 5.5% last year, to $81.78 billion, according to estimates by the American Association of Fundraising Counsel, which does not specifically track Muslim charitable giving. Unlike the major Christian or Jewish charities, which rely on local offices and foundations to channel funds to various causes, America's Islamic charities have yet to build such sophisticated networks.
Many believe it's simply a matter of time before America's Muslim community, now estimated at between 6 million and 10 million strong, will build institutions rivaling those built by Christians and Jews.
I personally think if there was more Christian charity, and less liberal-condescending-patronizing-claiming-moral-authority-I'm-better-than-you-are types of arguments, not only would the world be in less of a mess, but A2K and other forums like it would be a lot more edifying and more fun.
Foxfyre wrote:Sir, I TEACH comparitive religions.
Sounds like you still have a lot to learn.
Don't we all?
Foxfyre wrote:Now for the sake of argument, please list a few Islamic schools that are open to the general public.
Please list oh three or four hospitals and/or universities that Islam in the name of Islam has built and makes available to everybody in other than hugely predominant Islamic nations.
Where are the soup kitchens in New York City or Chicago or Los Angeles that are organized by Buddhists or Hindus or Moslems? There must be at least a few. But if you go seek them out, you're much more likely to find them organized and staffed by Christian congregations or organizations.
A dumb statement from someone who claims to teach comparative religions. Perhaps you should educate yourself and read what I supplied.
I teach comparative religions including what the various religious groups believe, teach, and put into practice. So far you haven't responded to any questions I've asked, so I'm assuming you have no answers to the questions.
Quote:Exact figures are not easy to track. Faith-based nonprofits saw donations increase 5.5% last year, to $81.78 billion, according to estimates by the American Association of Fundraising Counsel, which does not specifically track Muslim charitable giving. Unlike the major Christian or Jewish charities, which rely on local offices and foundations to channel funds to various causes, America's Islamic charities have yet to build such sophisticated networks.
Many believe it's simply a matter of time before America's Muslim community, now estimated at between 6 million and 10 million strong, will build institutions rivaling those built by Christians and Jews.
SOURCE
The issue was not what Christians 'are going to do' or what Muslims 'are going to do' but what are they doing? Islam has been around for 12-1300 years now. That was time to do at least some of it don't you think?
Foxfyre wrote:I personally think if there was more Christian charity, and less liberal-condescending-patronizing-claiming-moral-authority-I'm-better-than-you-are types of arguments, not only would the world be in less of a mess, but A2K and other forums like it would be a lot more edifying and more fun.
A very, very stupid and condescending statement showing your extreme bias and closed mind that seems to think only in terms of stereo-typing.
I can better understand why Santanta get frustrated and insults you as it is next to impossible to have an intelligent debate with people like you.
Sir, I TEACH comparitive [sic] religions.
May I point out to RL that Christianity isn't the only religion that commands the people to help the poor?
So sorry I offended you Miss Authority on What Makes the Messes in the World. I personally think if there was more Christian charity, and less liberal-condescending-patronizing-claiming-moral-authority-I'm-better-than-you-are types of arguments, not only would the world be in less of a mess, but A2K and other forums like it would be a lot more edifying and more fun..
It is a sad commentary when one who cannot use upper case letters correctly can only find the incorrect spelling of the word comparative to debate a fellow poster.
Intrepid wrote:It is a sad commentary when one who cannot use upper case letters correctly can only find the incorrect spelling of the word comparative to debate a fellow poster.
Intrepid - I added the emphasis here. I agree that criticising the other poster's spelling is pretty silly - it admittedly does make one look like one is desperate for arguments. But you are wrong to say that the spelling thing was the only thing found in argument against Foxfyre's sometimes mindboggling descriptions of the Christians' supposed moral, open-minded superiority. There was a bunch of other things said as well.
