Brandon9000 wrote:Bi-Polar Bear wrote:Ticomaya wrote:Are you of the opinion that assisting Cuba to transition to a democracy would be a bad thing?
Or do you just want to bitch about Bush?
I'm saying no ones asked for our help and that the presumptious bastard ought to wait until somebody does....
bush reminds me of the idiots who come up to me and tell me how to run sound when they don't know a fader from a volume knob.....a damned annoyance and a lot of balls....
I'm sure that many of the poor, downtrodden Cubans, in their fascist dictatorship, would ask for help if they could.
It's also certain that many Cubans love their leader. One needs to factor that in before assuming the entire country yearns to be free.
Our policies have kept Cuba as poor as possible. We welcome with open arms any Cuban who gets here (especially Ellian Gonzalez). Given that scenario, who wouldn't leave Cuba for the USA?
The last thing any nation should have to endure is Bush bringing democracy to it.
As in example we need only look at Palestine and Lebanon for bush bringing democracy, we delivered democracy on a plate then the People voted in Hamas and Hezbollah and bush went "well fuk that kind of democracy, we want our kind of democracy not what they want"- bomb the fukers.
Because we know what that phrase, "bringing them democracy," is code for; don't we?
Brandon9000 wrote:Bi-Polar Bear wrote:Ticomaya wrote:Are you of the opinion that assisting Cuba to transition to a democracy would be a bad thing?
Or do you just want to bitch about Bush?
I'm saying no ones asked for our help and that the presumptious bastard ought to wait until somebody does....
bush reminds me of the idiots who come up to me and tell me how to run sound when they don't know a fader from a volume knob.....a damned annoyance and a lot of balls....
I'm sure that many of the poor, downtrodden Cubans, in their fascist dictatorship, would ask for help if they could.
Learn the difference between fascism and communism before posting this horseshyt, Brandon.
This is a goddam laugh!
Well, Tico is right in a sense that Cuba matters way more than many other countries just by the sheer function of proximity.
I can also imagine that it will be somewhat shaky after Castro's death and that it might be for the better if the U.S. got involved in some way. Though rather than political imposition, I believe opening the market and lifting the sanctions would go much further than chest thumping and/or some direct involvement in Cuban state affairs.
I also agree and myself believe that if the dissidents and generally the silent mass could voice their true wishes, they would opt for democracy.
Just saying. While I'm not in favor of Iraq style missionary 'spreading of democracy', I do believe international pressures on Cuba might be of crucial significance at this time. I don't know what the best way would be, but I cannot agree that it is none of our business. And I say that as a Slovak and EU citizen as well.
... I should add that I come from a former communist country and am naturally influenced by that. But from what I lived it seems that the communism crumbled in Czechoslovakia not in the least because it was increasingly difficult for the government to ignore international pressures. Especially since 1985, when the Eastern Bloc was pulled more and more closely towards Western Europe....anyway, that would be for an essay.
I believe inclusion is the ticket. Neither invasion, nor ignoring and doing nothing.
interesting take dag, and nicely put.
Cuba is ABSOLUTELY NO THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES!!!! I am sorry people don't live aspeople think they should there, but there are many many many people in many many many countries that fit that description. We need to deal with one poorly thought out no exit strategy they'll welcome us with roses conflict at a time please.
I'd dearly love to see some of the enormous financial and resource outlay done domestically, but I sometimes forget that a starving below the poverty line foreigner is our obligation and a starving below the poverty line American is a drag on society.
well , well, well ...
it seems that plenty of americans and american businesses are happy doing business with cuba - i guess , if someone can pay the bill , he is a welcome customer
.
"...Oct. 1, 2002, 1:25pm EDT
U.S. COMPANIES MAKE MILLIONS AT CUBA BUSINESS FAIR
Nearly 300 U.S. agribusinesses, farmers and farm state lawmakers visited Cuba over the weekend for the first U.S. trade show on the Caribbean island in four decades, racking up sales of at least $66 million in cash, Cuba's food import agency says. "
...CUBA IS GOOD BUSINESS...
I'm with Dag.
Cuba needs to have all possible diplomatic pressure on it to change.
The EU, US or whoever should do what they can to support independent groups, NGOs, dissidents - anyone from the inside who can help along change, and be prepared when the regime collapses (as it will, sooner or later).
But no, of course dont even think about military intervention, invasion or the like.
----
Listen, people. The last thing we need after Bush, out here in the world, is liberal folks turning completely isolationist in reaction. The healthy answer to Bush's unilateral sabre-rattling is NOT "staying the f*ck out". Its smart, Clintonian international engagement.
My two cents.
Hear, hear!
It seems to be a part of the growing polarization in the U.S. Both liberals and conservatives seem to get more and more extreme on their end of the spectrum.
Involvement does not mean physical presence. And it does not even have to do with the top political layer, but helping develop the third sector through international networks of cooperation, helping to boost local media, training Cuban local and youth leaders.... whathaveyou, options are myriad.
I don't notice liberals disengaging from the world, just pushing for a different agenda than what we have now.
I've read at some length about cuba from both sides, though, you know me, no retention of data.
I'd sure not like to see any kind of coup, well, that's me, much less a coup imposed from my country, my country that never minds me. I'm not opposed to natural change, and would likely like the result. Chances of my seeing natural change are slim.
The US and the revved up folk in Miami taking charge?
Why do we just walk in to building hate, sans sensitivity.
This is a toy ploy, but acting on it will only engender more hate.
I do so wish everybody would let the island alone. Support them if they ask (how can I not say that sardonically.) Those people there have obtained some wisdom aside from any cold or hot war.
For a country, US, that proclaims democracy as supreme, I haven't seen any real snippets of understanding of it for many years.
edgarblythe wrote:I don't notice liberals disengaging from the world, just pushing for a different agenda than what we have now.
Then you havent read up this thread..
I haven't read up on this thread. Will soon. Do you mean we should take over cuba somehow, by willy or nilly?
I've suspected that I am even less warlike than even you, nimh.
Why can't these people work it out on their island between themselves?
What is this worldwideinterventioning thing that has taken hold?
OK, I know why.
Violence.
But who is more violent than us, in the case of the US.
Can't we let them talk, with some jazz in the background?
The arrogance of interference is pretty obnoxious.
Well, Edgar - if you saw any plea for smart engagement in promoting democracy in Cuba - rather than 'staying the f*ck out' - as the alternative to Bush's military interventions in this thread, you can point it out to me.
Refusing to force our will on Cuba is not the same as becoming isolationist.
