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Israel's Most Powerful Weapon--The Holocaust

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 06:15 pm
I think that's the basis of my main question, Phoenix. Where does/did the bigotry and discrimination start? Why were the Jews targeted in Europe as the source of the economic troubles of the region? Was it because they were a minority and an easy target, or was there some basis to the supposition that an insular group controlled the economic purse strings of a national economy? I have no answers, or even opinions, only curiosity and questions.

I will say that while I am not anti-Semitic, I do find myself becoming more anti-Zionist. For many years I felt that the UN made the correct decision in the creation of a Jewish state. I'm not so sure about that any more. I do think the return of Israel's borders to those of 1967 are probably the best short-term answer, but given the history and animosity of the area, I don't think even that would bring lasting peace to the region.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 06:29 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
The thing about using the Holocaust as a reson for the establishment of the state of Israel is that it responds to ethnocentrism with ethnocentrism. It states that the ethnoncentric Nazis perpetrated the Holocaust, therefore, an ethnocentric Jewish state is required. This logic is contradictory. It's alleged morality is hypocritical. More importantly, what is aggravating about this logical contradiction and moral hypocrisy is that the Jewish ethnocentric response--the establishment of the state of Israel for, of, and by Jews--to the Nazis' ethnocentic persecutions was imposed on a people that weren't Nazis and weren't Jews, and has and contiues to discriminate against, and oppresse those people.


Yes, that makes a lot of sense.
Providing justice to one persecuted group by imposing an injustice on another group (which had nothing to do with the original injustice) simply creates further injustice & conflict. As we have seen.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 06:36 pm
J_B wrote:
I live in a predominately Jewish community. My 'side of town' is approximately 70% Jewish and our schools have an even higher proportion. This is a mostly white, affluent area with a sprinkling of Asian families. While there are certainly instances of assimilating Jewish families, those that will include non-Jews in their social circles, by far the majority of the group is insular.

I want to be very careful not to paint with too wide a brush. My daughter's closest friend is Jewish and there are numerous inter-faith families in our church (Unitarian). On the other hand, the non-Jewish kids at school are ostracized from from social groups at school by many (as early as elementary school) and specifically told they can't play a game of tag, for instance, because they aren't Jewish. I do not consider myself anti-Semitic and my point to Lash's comment was my observation of socializing vs safety. I choose to live here and it isn't a problem for me, simply an observation.

When a new family moves into the area, the first question pertains to the last name and religion of the new family. Unfortunately, it matters to many. There are many country clubs in the area. Only one of them has 'open' membership.

Sorry to have taken this off-topic.

Phoenix, thanks, I'm still reading.


I don't think you've taken it off topic at all.

In the case of Jews I don't think it's easy to divorce the notion of security from any consideration of interaction with gentiles. If any group of people has a reason to be paranoid, it is the Jews. They also have very legitimate reasons for being insular.

In fact it's difficult to miss the irony of a situation, such as yours, in which Jews can be considered exclusionary.

The argument made by Infrablue that there is any material equivalence between Nazi Germany and Israel is bogus.

The Nazis developed their ethnocentrism as a means to raise themselves above all others, and led directly to genocide. The ethnocentrism of Jews has been largely forced upon them and has led to the creation of a democratic state within their historical homeland.

Assimilation has never protected Jews, because disintegration, not assimilation has been what much of the world has required of them.

I am not suggesting that you are anti-semitic, and to the extent that Jews engage in the sort of anti-social behavior of which they have, for so long, been victims...shame on those Jews.

Contrary to what McG commented, I do think freedom4free is denying the Holocaust occurred, at least in the sense that most educated people understand it to have occurred. Note his comment:

"One of the things served by blind acceptance of the Holocaust..."

What are open-eyed individuals to question about the Holocaust? That it was far less than 6 million Jews who perished? That the Nazis were not engaged in systematic genocide? That it's end was more an indirect consequence of the Allies defeating Germany than a clearly defined objective?

As well, it is ridiculous to suggest that Jews play any sort of Holocaust card. As victims, go Jews have made, perhaps, the least effort of any other group to parlay their suffering into special considerations. If they raise the spectre of the Holocaust it is in the context of expressing a conviction that they will never allow it to happen again, and in the face of nations and terrorist groups who wish to see their state wiped from the face of the earth, this can hardly be considered melodramatic. It is, also, quite different from saying that because of the Holocaust, they deserve special treatment.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 07:03 pm
Finn--

Great post.

~~~~~~~
Stuff to peruse about why Jews have been persecuted.

Jews blamed for Plague

Persecution of the Jews
As ever in Europe, when a crisis arose, the Jews were easy targets of blame. They were not the only group accused of poisoning water or practising witchcraft and hence bringing on the plague, but they suffered the anger of mob violence over a wide area.
There were massacres, especially in the cities along the Rhine River, and many more cases of the Jews being expelled from the town. On one day in Strassbourg in 1349, nearly 200 Jews were burned to death by an angry mob.

These actions were outbursts of popular anger and fear, not the instigation of the Church or even of the civil authorities. Pope Clement VI issued two bulls in the summer of 1348 forbidding the plunder and slaughter of the Jews. He pointed out that Jews were suffering as severely as Christians. Yet in September 1348, Zurich closed its gates to the Jews.

A few towns actually protected their Jews, with the city authorities or the bishop coming to their defense. But the Jews were being expelled generally from western Europe during the 14th century, and they were tolerated in Poland and Lithuania. So when the persecutions associated with the Black Death arose, some Jews simply migrated eastward and did not return.
Source

I am bringing some items listed at ReligiousTolerance. I'm not vetting the list, but will research an item if it's challenged. Some of these are worse than others.

Persecution of Jews by Roman Pagans:
70: The Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem, killed over 1 million Jews, took about 100,000 into slavery and captivity, and scattered many from Palestine to other locations in the Roman Empire.

113: Jews in Cyprus, Cyrene, Egypt and Mesopotamia revolted against the Roman Empire. This caused "the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews." 1

132: Bar Kochba led a hopeless three-year revolt against the Roman Empire. Many Jews had accepted him as the Messiah. About a half-million Jews were killed; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity. The rest were exiled from Palestine and scattered throughout the known world, adding to what is now called the "Diaspora." Judaism was no longer recognized as a legal religion. 2

135: Serious Roman persecution of the Jews began. They were forbidden, upon pain of death, from practicing circumcision, reading the Torah, eating unleavened bread at Passover, etc. A temple dedicated to the Roman pagan god Jupiter was erected on temple mountain in Jerusalem. A temple of Venus was built on Golgotha, just outside the city.

200: Roman Emperor Severus forbade religious conversions to Judaism.

More coming.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 07:06 pm
Persecution of Jews by Christians:
Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4

315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.

325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."

337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.

339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.

343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety." 5

367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.

380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."

415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.

528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3

535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians." 3

538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4

561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.

612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.

613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education

692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off." 5

694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus. 5

722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.
855: Jews were exiled from Italy

1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.

1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians." 6

1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes

1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.

1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)

1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.

1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.

1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians." 7

1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.

1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 12:18 am
So Lash
what you are saying is its all right for the jewish state to persecute any of the people around them because they have been persecuted?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 09:46 am
The Israelis are killing innocent children by their aggression against Lebanon.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:00 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
The Israelis are killing innocent children by their aggression against Lebanon.


Quote:
19 people were killed and 74 injured - six seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was carrying many students on their way to school. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.


Palestinian terrorist bombs civilian bus
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:04 am
Brandon, You probably do not know, but Palestinians have no legal or property rights in Israel; NONE. When any individual gives up hope of a good life in the future, all hope dies, and their only option to let their voice heard is by suicide bombing.

Try living in Israel as a Palestinian, and you'll begin to understand.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:07 am
The Expulsion of the Palestinians, 1947-1948


Words (excluding footnotes): 1857
Date: October, 2001 (revised, and title changed, 1/31/2002)


The "Palestinian refugee problem"--that is, the human tragedy created by the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians from their homeland, Palestine--remains a seemingly insoluble aspect of the Middle East puzzle.

Yet the expulsion of the Palestinians was an inescapable outcome of the United Nations' 1947 decision to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states the following year. (The Arab state never came into existence.)

Before the partition, Jews comprised only one-third of the population of Palestine, which held some 608,000 Jews and 1,237,000 Arabs. Even within the area designated for Israel under the U.N. partition plan, the population consisted of some 500,000 Jews and 330,000 Arabs. How could a country with such a large Arab minority become a Jewish homeland?[1]

The answer is that it could not. A massive population transfer would be required. And this was understood by Jewish military leaders during the war of 1947-1948. David Ben-Gurion, father of Israel and leader of its military, confidently predicted on February 7, 1948, that "there surely will be a great change in the population of the country" over the next several months. He was right.[2]

(The inevitable conflict between Jewish colonization of Palestine and the rights of the indigenous Palestinians was foreseen from the beginning. Theodor Herzl, the father of political Zionism, articulated the Zionist colonial plan in his 1896 book _Der Judenstaat_ (The Jewish State). Recognizing that a people would not surrender its homeland voluntarily, he wrote: "An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues until the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless based on an assured supremacy.")[2.5]
At the beginning of the strife in late 1947, it is likely that the Jewish political leadership in Palestine would have rejected any formal plan to expel the Palestinians. (Although that would change by the following June, as discussed below, when the new Israeli government prohibited the return of all Palestinian refugees.) There was, however, a shared belief by many of the Jewish (later Israeli) military leaders during the war that the entire Palestinian population was the enemy. Acting on that belief, the Jewish militias (the official Haganah and the unofficial Stern Gang and Irgun) engaged in a consistent course of conduct that was intended to--and did--cause the Arab population to flee. (The Israeli myth that the Palestinians left on instructions from Arab leaders has long since been shown to be a fabrication.)[3]

There is ample evidence of forcible expulsions. The most notorious was the Lydda/Ramle death march. On July 12 and 13, 1948, on the direct order of Ben-Gurion, Israeli forces expelled the 50,000 residents of the towns of Lydda and neighboring Ramle. Yitzak Rabin, later to become Israeli Prime Minister, wrote in his memoirs that "there was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the ten or fifteen miles" required to reach Arab positions. Before they left, the townspeople were "systematically stripped of all their belongings," according to the Economist newspaper in London. Many of the expelled died in the 100-degree heat during the trek.[4]

Eventually the refugees from Lydda and Ramle made their way to refugee camps near Ramallah. Count Folke Bernadotte, Swedish nobleman and United Nations mediator, attempted to offer aid. He later wrote that "I have made the acquaintance of a great many refugee camps, but never have I seen a more ghastly sight than that which met my eyes here at Ramallah." (Later that year, Bernadotte was murdered by the Stern Gang. One of its leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, became Israeli Prime Minister in 1983.)[5]

Forcible expulsions were commonly practiced by the Jewish/Israeli military during 1948: Qisariya on February 15; Arab Zahrat al-Dumayri, al-Rama and Khirbat al-Sarkas in April; al-Ghabisiya, Danna, Najd and Zarnuqa the next month; Jaba, Ein Ghazal and Ijzim on July 24; and al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad on October 31, among many others. Israeli historian Benny Morris has identified 34 Arab communities whose inhabitants were ousted. We may never know the full extent of the ejections, though, because, as Morris notes, the Israeli Defense Forces Archive "has a standing policy guideline not to open material explicitly describing expulsions and atrocities."[6]

More often, though, the instruments of expulsion were the terrorizing and demoralization of the Arab population. Jewish military forces used several tactics in pursuit of these goals.

One was psychological warfare. Radio broadcasts in Arabic warned of traitors in the Arabs' midst, spread fears of disease, reported confusion and terror among the Arabs, described the Palestinians as having been deserted by their leaders, and accused Arab militias of committing crimes against Arab civilians.[7]

Another effective psywar tactic involved the use of loudspeaker trucks. At various times they urged the Palestinians to flee before they were all killed, warned that the Jews were using poison gas and atomic weapons, or played recorded "horror sounds"--shrieks, moans, the wail of sirens and the clang of fire-alarm bells.[8]

A second tactic, economic warfare, was a favorite of Ben-Gurion, who described "the strategic objective" of the Jewish forces to be "to destroy the [Arab] urban communities." "Deprived of transportation, food, and raw materials," he later noted with satisfaction, "the urban communities underwent a process of disintegration, chaos, and hunger."[9]

A third technique to induce Arab flight was military attack on a town's Arab population. These assaults often used Davidka mortars--horribly inaccurate, but useful for creating terror--and barrel bombs. The latter consisted of barrels, casks, and metal drums filled with a mixture of explosives and fuel oil. Rolled into the Arab section of a town, they created "an inferno of raging flames and endless explosions." Another destructive maneuver described by writer Arthur Koestler was the "ruthless dynamiting of block after block" of the Arab community.[10]

Not uncommonly, the Jewish forces resorted to simple terrorism. Sometimes this took the form of bombs planted in vehicles or buildings: 30 killed in Jaffa on Jan. 4., 1948, with a truck bomb; 20 killed the next day when the Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed; 17 killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem two days later.[11]

More often, a Jewish military force entered an Arab village and massacred civilians, either during a night raid or after the seizure of the village. The massacres started early: Major General R. Dare Wilson, who served with the British troops trying to keep peace in Palestine before the end of the British Mandate, reported that on Dec. 18, 1947, the Haganah murdered 10, mostly women and children, in the Arab village of al-Khisas with grenades and machine gun fire. Wilson also described how on Dec. 31 the Haganah slaughtered another 14, again mostly women and children, again using machine guns and throwing grenades into occupied homes, this time in Balad Esh-Sheikh.[12]

Throughout 1948, the massacres continued: 60 at Sa'sa' on Feb. 15; 100 murdered in Acre after its May 18 seizure by the Haganah; several hundred at Lydda on July 12, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash Mosque; 100 at Dawayma on Oct. 29, with an Israeli eye-witness reporting that "the children were killed by smashing their skulls with clubs"; 13 young men mowed down by machine guns in open fields outside Eilabun on Oct. 30; another 70 young men blindfolded and shot to death, one after another, at Safsaf the same day; 12 killed at Majd al-Kurum, also on Oct. 30, with a Belgian U.N. observer writing that "there is no doubt about these murders"; an unknown number killed the next day at al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad, described by a U.N. official as "wanton slaying without provocation"; 14 "liquidated," according to the Israeli military's report, at Khirbet al-Wa'ra as-Sauda on Nov. 2.[13]

A particularly repugnant method of killing employed by the Jewish militias was the blowing up of houses with their occupants still inside, often at night. The militia would place explosive charges around the stone houses, drench the wooden window and door frames with gasoline, and then open fire, simultaneously dynamiting and burning the sleeping inhabitants to death.[14]

The supreme act of terrorism by Jewish militias was the slaughter of nearly the entire village of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948. According to Jacques de Reynier, a Swiss physician working for the Red Cross who arrived before the bloodletting had ended, 254 people were "deliberately massacred in cold blood." "All I could think of," he later said, "was the SS troops I had seen in Athens." According to Meir Pa'il, who served as a communications officer for the Haganah in Deir Yassin and was present during the assault, 25 male survivors were taken to Jerusalem and paraded through the streets in a perverse victory celebration, then shot in cold blood.[15]

Menachem Begin, the leader of the Irgun, one of the militias involved in the horror at Deir Yassin, called the atrocity a "splendid act of conquest." In 1977, Begin was elected Prime Minister of Israel.[16]

The massacre at Deir Yassin played a crucial role in undermining the morale of the Palestinian population. As de Reynier, the Swiss physician, wrote, "a general terror was built up among the Arabs, a terror astutely fostered by the Jews."[17]

Once the Israeli military had forced the Palestinians to flee, various Israeli institutions attempted to insure that there would be no return. The new Israeli government decided on June 16, 1948--just a month after Israel had declared independence, and before half of the refugees had even become such--that it would not permit the Palestinians to return to their homeland. The military, meanwhile, worked to render return a physical impossibility. Its forces leveled 418 Palestinian towns and villages, erasing the majority of Palestinian society from the face of the earth.[18]

Completing the process of dispossession, Israel took control of land owned by the Arabs whom it would not allow to return. Before 1948, Jews owned only 1.5 million of the 26 million dunams of land in Palestine. (A dunam, the local measure of land area, is a quarter-acre.) After the eviction of the Palestinians, Israel controlled 20 million dunams, an increase from 6% to 77% of the total. They simply stole an entire country.[19]

Moshe Dayan, Israeli war hero, described this reality succinctly in a 1969 speech: "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist; not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. ... There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."[20]

While a wrong of these incalculable dimensions can never be truly rectified, simple considerations of justice require that the Palestinian refugees from what is now Israel, and their descendants, be permitted to return home.
http://www.robincmiller.com/pales2.htm
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:10 am
Quote:
Brandon, You probably do not know, but Palestinians have no legal or property rights in Israel; NONE. When any individual gives up hope of a good life in the future, all hope dies, and their only option to let their voice heard is by suicide bombing.


c.i.- That is a very peculiar "take" on things. There have been lots of people who found other options than suicide bombing better alternatives to improve an unacceptable life. Ask all the immigrants who came to the US, because they found living conditions in their countries aversive.

Many Cubans feel that they have a horrible life in Cuba. Do THEY bomb? Do the Mexicans bomb Mexico?

I believe that you have to rethink your statement.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:20 am
Phoenix, How many Palesntinian immgrants from Israel do you think are arriving on our shores? Who's paying for their transportation and sponsorship?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:25 am
In sum, there is currently no forum in which Palestinian refugees can make an enforceable claim for their land and properties taken by Israel. Despite the lack of any such forum, there is an urgent need to implement strategies designed to create institutions in which these concerns can be raised and addressed. Normally, claims or challenges concerning real property are made in the courts of the state where the property lies; however, Israel's absentee property laws effectively preclude such claims in Israeli courts.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:31 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Phoenix, How many Palesntinian immgrants from Israel do you think are arriving on our shores? Who's paying for their transportation and sponsorship?


I really don't know. My point was is that suicide bombing is certainly NOT the only option for people who feel that they are being shortchanged in their country.

I am sure that the US is not the only agreeable place that Arab people would choose to live.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:35 am
Phoenix, We're talking about how the Israelis treat the Palestinians. Please stay on topic. There are many countries in this world where the leaders continue inhuman treatment of their citizens; that's not the topic of this thread.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:38 am
This is about the Jews and the Holocaust; and their reliance on the world to excuse them their treatment of Palestinians, because many are not aware of how Jews treat the Palestnians.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:44 am
cicerone, interesting. If the day ever comes when a 2 state solution happens the Palestinians will have given the world a very great lesson in forgiveness and sacrifice for a greater good. Israel seems to be doing all she can to destroy even the thought of Palestinian acceptence of a 2 state solution. That acceptence is what the hardest line Israelis fear most. http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=12755
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 10:52 am
blueflame, Good article. It shows Israel is not interested in a peace accord that would return lands to the Palestinians.

That the US government continues our support of Israel, an aparthied state that uses illegal and inhumane military force, is ignored by too many people.

It's no wonder this world is in crisis.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 11:18 am
Reyn--

May I respond to this? Very Happy

rabel22 wrote:
So Lash
what you are saying is its all right for the jewish state to persecute any of the people around them because they have been persecuted?


<makes scary, slitty-eyed face at Rabel>
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 12:29 pm
fresco wrote:
Presumably your lack of intelligence blinds you to the fact that the holocaust represents the depths of inhumanity which result from prejudicial stereotyping. Your simplistic phrase "Israel plays the card..." is merely illustrative of such a trait within yourself.


Thank you for pointing out my lack of intelligence, i'm feeling really guilty now Sad ...

Hey wait a minute, you've just proved my point. Thanks!
0 Replies
 
 

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