Israel's Most Powerful Weapon--The Holocaust

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Israel's Most Powerful Weapon--The Holocaust

One of the things served by blind acceptance of the Holocaust is the Jewish state of Israel. If they get any serious opposition, they play the Holocaust card and quickly silence their opponents, whether they be politicians, historians or journalists.

The effect this has had on the world is devastating. Just look at Palestine and Lebanon! Israel is making full use of the BILLIONS and BILLIONS of tax-dollars worth of American military equipment the politicians and US tax payers have given them! To date, they have killed well over 300 civilians and created over 500,000 refugees! And all the victims who survive know who gave Israel the jets, helicopters and missiles and bombs they're using against them and their families. This, of course, creates more recruits for bin Laden and much more danger for the US.

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Presumably your lack of intelligence blinds you to the fact that the holocaust represents the depths of inhumanity which result from prejudicial stereotyping. Your simplistic phrase "Israel plays the card..." is merely illustrative of such a trait within yourself.

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It's good that at least he isn't denying that it occured.

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Is this anything like the slave card being played by black people. Or how about the racist card played by illegal alien supporters. Or better yet homophobe card played by the gay activists. These are all cards played by people and I don't see any complaints by you or your ilk.

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As with the Race Card, or the Gender Card (hey--where has the Gender Card been?), if the Holocaust is applicable to the conversation, it should be introduced as an issue.

The fact that the Holocaust happened doesn't immediately silence all viewpoints from non-Jewish perspectives. I think your hatred of the mention of the Holocaust is purely because the fact that it occurred does lend itself mightily to support Israel's behavior in many circumstances. Of course, not all.

It is largely the reason the UN carved Israel out of the ME and handed it over to people of Jewish descent.

It is why the world should be mindful--still today--of the plight of Jewish people, specifically---but really, all people.

The _____ Card issue falls flat for me when I disagree with someone and they try to infer that the entire reason I disagree with their opinion is because of their race or ethnicity. As if it couldn't possibly be because I just don't agree with them.

I have never had a Jewish person use that Card.

Baldimo's post was interesting, because I do think people who want to restrict gay rights are homophobic. I almost hate to say that, because I don't think many of them mean to be homophobic, or really want to do harm to gay people--but harm is what results.

I have been accused of racism indirectly when I explained my opinion on illegal immigration. Of course, I disagree with that characterization.

But, it is odd that the three Cards in this case aren't easily comparable. I think Craven and some others would say the immigration thing may be less racist and more nationalistic. I think I remember an argument that there should be no "national lines" in the sand.

Eh. Hope the convo rolls here. It has the potential to be interesting.

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The thing about using the Holocaust as a reson for the establishment of the state of Israel is that it responds to ethnocentrism with ethnocentrism. It states that the ethnoncentric Nazis perpetrated the Holocaust, therefore, an ethnocentric Jewish state is required. This logic is contradictory. It's alleged morality is hypocritical. More importantly, what is aggravating about this logical contradiction and moral hypocrisy is that the Jewish ethnocentric response--the establishment of the state of Israel for, of, and by Jews--to the Nazis' ethnocentic persecutions was imposed on a people that weren't Nazis and weren't Jews, and has and contiues to discriminate against, and oppresse those people.

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I won't try to say you're wrong. You may have some valid points, but I think you go off into a philosophical direction before addressing the meat of the situation.

If your race/ethnicity has been hunted down in a number of countries throughout history, I can easily see how this group of people would want to live among the only people they felt they could trust--themselves.

I don't think it is intended as a social statement, but a security issue.

Do you think that's possible?

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I think that you bring up a very valid point, Lash. The Jewish people have been the scapegoats in many countries over the millennia. They have been persecuted, exiled, reviled and segregated.

During my lifetime, in many places including the US, Jewish people have been restricted from belonging to certain clubs, from attending certain universities, from vacationing in certain places.

It is no wonder, that after the Holocaust, Jewish people wanted a place where they could be free to be themselves, not to have to constantly look over their shoulders to see if someone were after them.

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Thanks for at least looking at it from that viewpoint, Phoenix.

Very Happy

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InfraBlue wrote:

The thing about using the Holocaust as a reson for the establishment of the state of Israel is that it responds to ethnocentrism with ethnocentrism. It states that the ethnoncentric Nazis perpetrated the Holocaust, therefore, an ethnocentric Jewish state is required. This logic is contradictory. It's alleged morality is hypocritical. More importantly, what is aggravating about this logical contradiction and moral hypocrisy is that the Jewish ethnocentric response--the establishment of the state of Israel for, of, and by Jews--to the Nazis' ethnocentic persecutions was imposed on a people that weren't Nazis and weren't Jews, and has and contiues to discriminate against, and oppresse those people.

You have to remember that the League of Nations was already working on the creation of Israel before the out break of WWII. The UN picked up the idea after the war and with good reason.

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Lash wrote:

I don't think it is intended as a social statement, but a security issue.

Do you think that's possible?

Certainly it's possible, and I don't pretend to have a handle on why Jews throughout history have been targeted as the source of all ills, but I see firsthand (as do my children in school), the exclusionary social aspects of non-assimilation by the Jewish majority of our area.

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J_B - You might find this interesting in understanding the phenomenon of anti-Semitism:

http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761574855/Anti-Semitism.html#s1

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J_B wrote:

Lash wrote:

I don't think it is intended as a social statement, but a security issue.

Do you think that's possible?

Certainly it's possible, and I don't pretend to have a handle on why Jews throughout history have been targeted as the source of all ills, but I see firsthand (as do my children in school), the exclusionary social aspects of non-assimilation by the Jewish majority of our area.

This is an interesting comment and one I would hope you will be willing to expound upon.

What do you mean by "...the exclusionary social aspects of non-assimilation by the Jewish majority in our area?"

In this situation who is being socially excluded, the non-assimilating Jewsish majority, an assimilating Jewish minority, or some group of Gentiles (non-Jews)?

Are Jews the majority of your area's population, or are the non-assimilating Jews the majority of the Jewish population in your area.

Thanks

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I live in a predominately Jewish community. My 'side of town' is approximately 70% Jewish and our schools have an even higher proportion. This is a mostly white, affluent area with a sprinkling of Asian families. While there are certainly instances of assimilating Jewish families, those that will include non-Jews in their social circles, by far the majority of the group is insular.

I want to be very careful not to paint with too wide a brush. My daughter's closest friend is Jewish and there are numerous inter-faith families in our church (Unitarian). On the other hand, the non-Jewish kids at school are ostracized from from social groups at school by many (as early as elementary school) and specifically told they can't play a game of tag, for instance, because they aren't Jewish. I do not consider myself anti-Semitic and my point to Lash's comment was my observation of socializing vs safety. I choose to live here and it isn't a problem for me, simply an observation.

When a new family moves into the area, the first question pertains to the last name and religion of the new family. Unfortunately, it matters to many. There are many country clubs in the area. Only one of them has 'open' membership.

Sorry to have taken this off-topic.

Phoenix, thanks, I'm still reading.

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In order to really understand the apartheid of Israel, one must read "The Other Side of Israel" by Susan Nathan.

Even the liberal Jews of Israel has their limit in support of the Palestinians. What's even more scary is how the Jews from Canada and the US treat not only Palestinians, but unorthodox Jews. Jews are not allowed to marry outside their faith in Israel.

There are some co-existence efforts by both Jews and Palestinians, but the takeover of Palestinians lands by the Jews increases through the Jewish Agency and Jewish National Fund - most of it through fraud.

This is not a democracy.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

In order to really understand the apartheid of Israel, one must read "The Other Side of Israel" by Susan Nathan.

Even the liberal Jews of Israel has their limit in support of the Palestinians. What's even more scary is how the Jews from Canada and the US treat not only Palestinians, but unorthodox Jews. Jews are not allowed to marry outside their faith in Israel.

There are some co-existence efforts by both Jews and Palestinians, but the takeover of Palestinians lands by the Jews increases through the Jewish Agency and Jewish National Fund - most of it through fraud.

This is not a democracy.

How does that fit in with the giving of Jewish land to the Palestinians? Remember about a year ago many settlers were forcfully removed from their homes so that others could live there.

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J_B

I appreciate you sharing your perspective. Living in your area, you definitely see things I haven't. It does seem those doing the excluding were children--and, you know, children are famous for forming little cliques based on skin color, money, what have you. Religion seems an odd thing to group socially by at school, but in a 70% majority area, I can see how that would happen. I hope their parents will teach them a bit about that, but I don't guess we can expect better from the Jewish population than we've been able to get from the general public.

Getting to know my supervisor over the past couple of years, I can see rituals (OY!) and things that make friendships within the Jewish community much more practical. Observant Jews do live under a lot of strict requirements that your average person would probably get tired of soon.

We don't even ask her if she wants something from Burger King et al--(her eating rules make it impossible) and so, she is excluded from that major social ritual in our office. Christmas is a big (HUGE) difference. Jesus Talk permeates our society down here. More HUGE exclusion....

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Unfortunately, Lash, the children are practicing what they learn at home, as most children do. The example I gave was of the children on the playground, but they aren't the ones screening new neighbors for inclusion or exclusion.

As I said, I do not consider myself anti-Semitic in any way. In fact, I spend considerable efforts talking to my daughters trying to undo whatever biases they express.

One of the advantages for them being in a UU church is that we celebrate of the traditions of many faiths, which is why we have such a large inter-faith membership.

It's a dilemma for them, much more so than for me, but I do get to see another side of the picture. My daughter's close friend is Iranian-Jewish. Her family left Iran due to religious persecution. I've talked to the mother often about her life in Iran as a Jew and it isn't pretty. I see both sides and make no judgements.

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It's a shame we tend to group off. Like a high school lunch room.

I guess most people still feel more comfortable with people who seem to be "culturally" similar.

I guess it makes most people feel more secure.

I hope we can find a good UU church like yours when we move. Sounds perfect.

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J_B- I am afraid that there are bigots in every group. It is doubly sad that a group that has personally known so much bigotry, chooses to discriminate against others.

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Israel's Most Powerful Weapon--The Holocaust

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