Setanta wrote: Brandon9000 wrote:
I'm not singling the Israelis out for special censure, and i'm sure Naj is not either. What i am doing (and Naj perhaps as well), is objecting to that attitude which deplores and rants about terrorist bombings, but attempts to brush aside Israeli state terror as insignificant.
Give a single example of Israeli state terror.
You are intentionally being obtuse? Go back and look at the links describing attacks on the power grid and waste water treatment plant in Gaza.
Those strike me as rather conventional types of targets in war. You think that people didn't bomb these kinds of targets in past wars considered just? How can you possibly class this with putting a bomb on a school bus or in a discotheque, where clearly there is no goal other than to slaughter the innocent?
It seems to me that you are awfully literal minded. In the first place, large-scale aerial bombing has only taken place three times since the Second World War, outside the middle east and leaving aside Serbia for now, and that was in Korea and Vietnam and Afghanistan during the Soviet war. I believe that one can reasonably exclude the Falkland Islands War, as Argentine fighter-bombers were attacking Royal Navy shipping in the sound between the eastern and western main islands.
In Korea, we had the authority of the United Nations, and i know of no serious charge that the United States and its allies there knowingly violated the Geneva Conventions. During the war in southeast Asia, it was alleged that the United States committed negligent and "illegal" bombing, although i know of no one who has successfully prosecuted a case based on that. Similar charges were made against the Russians in Afghanistan.
During the Second World War (before the Geneva Conventions on the laws of war were promulgated and ratified), the RAF decided upon a policy of nighttime area bombing of residential civilian areas. Winston Churchill freely admits as much in his multi-volume work, The Second World War
, and states that he and Air Marshall Arthur Harris ("Bomber" Harris) made the decision that workers who get no sleep will not be productive the following day. Quite a skimpy fig-leaf to cover the horror of the fire storms first generated at Hamburg, and later intentionally triggered through a careful bombing method. It also covers the fact that the RAF did not dare bomb in dayling, any more than did the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe had attempted precision nighttime bombing agains the docks in the east end of London, with disasterous results for the residents. However, only the Americans actually persued a policy of high-altitude, precision daylight bombing--and greately to our cost, as 30,000 American aircrew were lost over Germany and France. The English and the German policies were intended to be terror bombings, and they intended to use terror as the weapon absent the ability to deliver bombs to crucial targets with precision.
It is noteworthy that after the war, Herman Goering was to be prosecuted for his participation in the National Socialist government, and not his position as commander of the Luftwaffe--but he took his own life and avoided a conviction at a war crimes trial. None of the high ranking officers of the Luftwaffe were ever prosecuted for the prosecution of the air war. Albert Kesselring was prosecuted for war crimes because of his role as supreme commander of German forces in Italy. Although Kesselring was one of the commanders of the air fleets which attacked England in the Battle of Britain, he was not prosecuted for that, nor were any other air fleet commanders. Adolf Galland, although commander of the fighter wing of the Luftwaffe, and although held as a prisoner of war for almost two years after the war, was never prosecuted for war crimes. The reason is simple--the Allies had practiced terror bombing, too.
The provisions of the Geneva Conventions which succeeded that war in particular sought to prevent abuses which had taken place in that war, including some types of aerial bombardment. Among the violations of which the Israelis are currently guilty, and which i therefore categorize as state terror are violations of the following provisions of Third Geneva convention:
Part I, Article 3, Section 1, paragraph d: The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.--Israel has launched missle attacks at apartment buildings, alleging that terrorist leaders are in them, but without meeting this provision for judicial guarantees. Of course, they have also done so with blantant disregard for the consequences to other inhabitants of such buildings.
This one is for you, Brandon: Part II, Article 13: The provisions of Part II cover the whole of the populations of the countries in conflict, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, nationality, religion or political opinion
, and are intended to alleviate the sufferings caused by war. (emphasis added)--since you are so fond of saying that the Palestinians deserve to get it in the neck because they support Hamas.
Part II, Article 20: Persons regularly and solely engaged in the operation and administration of civilian hospitals, including the personnel engaged in the search for, removal and transporting of and caring for wounded and sick civilians, the infirm and maternity cases, shall be respected and protected.--that means your boys in the IDF don't get to shoot up ambulances, Brandon.
Part III, Article 33: No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited
.--if one thing stands out starkly in the Israeli seige of Gaza, it is the character of collective punishment being inflicted.
Article 49 reads, in part: The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.--the Isrealis have violated this repeatedly since 1948.
I didn't even get half-way through that Convention, Brandon. Israel consistently and cavalierly violates the provisions of the Geneva Conventions in a casual manner. That you don't wish to recognize that in no way alters the fact
. Not only will you not acknowledge any parity in the horror of the acts committed by both sides, you won't admit that the Israelis ever do anything reprehensible. You claim that the Israelis are singled out for special censure, although you've not provided any evidence to that effect--but you, in fact, will countenance no accusation which censures the Israelis. You consistenly characterize the victims of Israeli state terror as the unfortunate bystanders who are killed in any war. You have characterized this as "some casualties," "a few casualties"--ignoring that more than 2,000 were killed in the Lebanon, and thousands more injured, and all in just a few short weeks.
You really had a gall to suggest that Israel is singled out for special censure. You are positively pathological in your inability to admit Israeli error. Another member has provided the evidence for an attack on a well-marked ambulance in daylight, in which article witnesses said that Israeli rockets struck the area of the ambulance station again later in that same day. I provided you evidence of attacks on waste water treatment and the power grid--but what do we get from you?
If you think that bombing a munitions factory and bombing a school bus are morally indistinguishable, then it only signifies that you are amoral.
None of the links provided and the attacks allude to were attacks on a munitions factory. It was pointed out pages ago that the Palestinians don't have any munitions factory, so Tico or McG or another of your cronies trots out to dig up a story about the bombing of a garage in which weapons were stored or
manufactured (no proof offered, must Israeli propaganda)--even though those who disagree with you have consistently pointed to Israeli attacks on civilian targets and not military targets
You cannot possibly climb down and admit any significant error on the part of Israel--your attitudes have become ossified and you show no sense of justice or proportion.