I'm taking classes. They're fun. They're the kind of thing where a subject is covered for 2 days, then we move onto something else. You can take the classes in any order and every couple of days you can end up with a whole new group of classmates. Anyway, on Monday and Tuesday of this week (as in, yesterday and today), I went to a class with 12 other people including a woman I'll call B___.
Now, B___ is a nice enough person, I suppose, but I feel no great kinship to her, we do not know each other and I just don't want to make friends. I want to do my schoolwork and really only socialize minimally while I'm there. Anyway, I made 3 errors. The first one was yesterday. I got my lunch and saw she was sitting alone. I felt sorry for her and sat with her. One of the things I learned is that she does not drive. My second mistake was sitting with her again today (again, she was by herself). And my third error was, when she asked me what I've been doing with my summer, I told her something semi- (and I mean semi- it really wasn't much at all) personal. Now she thinks we're confidantes.
Today, at the end of class (this was the end of a two-day session), I asked the instructor, P___, if she'd be teaching tomorrow. And B__ piped up and said she'll be in the same class with me tomorrow. Oh joy, oh rapture. Then B___ wanted my contact information, so that we can talk after I get back from next visiting my family (that was the semi-demi-hemi-private thing I had told her). I think I handled this part okay. I took out a pen and paper and gave her just my first name and email address and no more. Then I put away the pen and paper and therefore did not get hers in return. And, of course, email is easy to blow off if necessary.
Why, you may ask, do I not want to make friends with B___? Well, there's the matter of her bumming a ride this morning from our instructor because her (B___'s) husband couldn't get up that early in the morning. And then there's the personal hygeine, or rather the egregious lack thereof. B___ smells. Really. A lot. And there's other evidence of poor hygeine, as in visible plaque on the teeth (even before lunch), dandruff everywhere and the same little barrette in her hair, in the exact same place it was yesterday. I suspect it was arc-welded there.
Now, tomorrow, when we start our next subject, you can change seats. I will bet any amount of money you like that B___ will try to sit next to me or at least at the same table as me (we sit at tables and do the workshops together in teams). I am not interested in making a scene because there are people who come to class who I might actually want to be friendly with or at least, certainly, not actively hostile. I have 6 more days of school and definitely will be with B___ for the next 2 and possibly the 2 after that. For the final 2, we will most likely miss each other but you never know.
Anyway, how would you handle B___? Have you ever had to handle someone like B___ before? Clinging, weird, smelly, nothing in common, latching on like a leech because you said a kind word or two? I know we are not perfect people and I am well aware that there may have been times that I latched too closely onto someone in my life, someone who didn't want to become friends with me (I like to think my hygeinic practices are better, of course). It's not just the hygeine, although that part is incredibly off-putting. It's the clinginess, the over-dependency and the clear inability to understand boundaries. I mean, who gets their teacher to drive them because their spouse is just plain lazy? That's not the instructor's job.
So, help. B___ is married and therefore unavailable if Gus is looking for a date. Otherwise, any suggestions? Comments? Sympathy? Jokes? Odd pictures? Bring 'em on, and thanks in advance.
Signed, Cringing in Class.
PS Before you tell me to take all the friends I can get and that I should never turn down overtures, please, really, there are plenty of perfectly nice people that all of us are not friends with. Friendship, to me, is a kinship of people with stuff in common. Yes, B___ and I are taking a class together, but I have more kinship with people I've worked with and never made friends with most of them. My mind's made up on that end. B___ and I will never be buddies if I have any say in the matter.
I think you can only do what you're doing....only mebbe really try to be not sitting with her? Try to be in a group, where you have to divide your attention and she cannot expect the confidante stuff.
That is, ongoingly polite, restrained, not doing your bit in the little dance of emerging friendship, (though perhaps she will not notice she is unpartnered)
Thing is, you may be doomed to ongoing overtures while the class lasts, and even some harrumphs as you gently cool it. (Yes, I know, you never "warmed" it....we speak of subjectivity here...)
The getting the instructor to drive her thing suggests she will have no awareness of boundaries at all, so I am not sure that your signals will be met with matching withdrawal.
Good luck!
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ehBeth
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 04:39 pm
is there any chance at all that you'll be able to arrive at class after B, and pick a seat at a different table, and then speak loudly and rapturously about the opportunity to work with different people through this program if she sidles up to you during a break? encourage her to bond deeply with her new group?
or something to that effect
you don't want to put others off with your declarations of rapture of course
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CalamityJane
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 04:47 pm
Yes, I was thinking too, that arriving a bit later and taking a different
seat in class would be doable. At lunch you could run some errands -
thus avoiding her alltogether. Plus you could ask someone else in your
group to look out for her at lunch while you're gone and hope she'll
make a new friend :naughty:
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JPB
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 04:56 pm
ooof, is right. I can think of what I might do and then I can think of what my mother (the paragon of thinking of others) might do.
I would arrive a few minutes late to class and hope to hell there's only one seat left and it isn't next to B. Or, I would arrive very early to class, strike up a conversation with someone else and take a seat with them as early as possible. Make plans for lunch, or go out for lunch if need be.
My mother would arrive on time, take a seat without looking to see who she was sitting next to, pull a very large but interesting novel out of her bag and begin to read. At lunch she would sit by herself, pull the novel out of her bag, and read. If the other woman sat next to her she would nod politely when necessary, but keep on reading. If any requests for a ride came her way she would smile and simply say she was sorry but she didn't think it would work with her morning schedule (although she did hoodwink my father into driving a comparable B__ to work for over a year). If the reading trick didn't work she would tell herself that it's only six days out of her life and go with the flow.
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ossobuco
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:25 pm
Great minds...
I also thought of being late-ish, and either reading or better yet, reading and taking notes about it. When she would ask what it is, you'd say, I beg your pardon? Or, alternately, Advanced Quantum Physics. Just your luck, that would be her hobby.
This all reminds me of Dorothea. I've remembered this name since 1960, but not all the details. And I can't say she smelled bad, because I have, hah, a bad sense of smell. But she was someone who stood too close, etc.
I think she was in my English classes. Well, as it happens I ran into my cousin in the university student union book store. We were thrilled to see each other - my mother and her father, they being sister and brother, hadn't talked for, oh, four years, and proceded to keep that up until they died. But my cousin who didn't know of course that I'd transferred to the university, was delighted to see me and I her, thus starting a real friendship of what, 45 years now. So, we went to lunch and spent at least a couple of hours catching up. She was not only a year ahead of me in school, but had been at the university longer. Who does she talk about at some point but this weird girl, Dorothea (in the early sixties the word 'girl' was not as strange to use as it would be now).
I don't remember what either of us did about Dorothea except walk fast the other way upon espying. Not that I'm proud of that.
So, all these years later what would I do? I'd be pleasant and avoid involvement. If she got pushy I might have to say something a little short. It's sad, since the kindest thing might be the hardest, which would be to talk to her about all this.
This also reminds me of a lab situation we had, which I've talked about on a2k before. At some point, our clinical lab, a fairly small place, grew from two of us and a receptionist to probably six techs and two, maybe three, office staff, plus some college kids in to check in the day's arrival of specimens, some from all over the world. Thus we were in a sardine situation at the getgo. A guy had been hired as an office helper, and shortly thereafter everybody but me with the lack of the nasal sense was rolling their eyeballs and exclaiming while waving the air. To put it nicely, he was from a different culture by far, both from far away and from a family with very different hygenic practice. So.....
the poor office manager was elected to talk to him. I think it took a half hour in her closed office, poor dear. Well, in a way, poor dear for both of them. He improved, but there had to be further talks...
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timberlandko
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:35 pm
Invite her out to the beach for the Thursday Night Goat Sacrifice and Get Together - tell her to bring plenty of lubricating gel - and mebbe some aspirin and linament, just in case she's not used to the exertions.
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snood
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:36 pm
When Osso said this about what she'd do if she saw her old aquaintance...
Quote:
I'd be pleasant and avoid involvement. If she got pushy I might have to say something a little short. It's sad, since the kindest thing might be the hardest, which would be to talk to her about all this.
...it pretty much described what I was going to suggest.
It might be unavoidable to hurt feelings and be the bad guy, for a short while.
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ossobuco
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:48 pm
View from years later, I bet Dorothea stood too close because she had poor vision, or that that was part of it.... but there was more, as both my cousin and I in different years reacted the same way to her, as in aaacccck.
Now, my cousin and I weren't prom queens or anything..
It's interesting, the thing about boundaries, social monitors. Some of that may be biochemical/brain related, and some cultural... Let's say I'm more sympathetic now than I was then - but I'd still not want to take on Jespah's woman on as a project..
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ossobuco
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 05:56 pm
Also interesting to me.. this reminds me of some of the parent threads, re school yard choices and how to deal with them. Jespah's title for this thread may be the most straightforward way to handle it.
And even further it reminds me of something else I've talked about before.
After college, I've been back to school twice. Once for about four years of evening art studio classes, something like 30 of them, not 30 classes, 30 courses. Those were non territorial - you set up in the space that was there when you arrived.
And I took four years of landscape architecture classes, one of which was about design and the environment, and covered a lot of social space issues.
But on my own, even without that kind of design class impetus, I tried out sitting in different places over a whole quarter. Man, oh, man, you could feel fur move back and forth. People pick a seat the first day and are keen on it forever more, or for twelve weeks more. Well, not everybody, and not all the time, but there is a general trend toward that.
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Lash
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:02 pm
I just had a very similar problem.
Loud, Know Everything and Interrupt Everyone in Class Woman sat by me the first night, and she seemed a little loud, but pleasant. When class started, I was amazed. Other people would ask the instructor questions and she would alternately interrupt either or both during the exchange.
She answered rhetorical questions.
I was horrified because I began to cultivate a serious dislike for her. I thought I may absently reach over and jab her in the eye.
(I wanted to)
So, one night I came in late, as some have suggested, and sat by a girl who's main qualification was she wasn't Loud, Know Everything and Interrupt Everyone in Class Woman. We started studying together and hanging out--and I got a friend for a semester out of it.
But, Loud, Know Everything and Interrupt Everyone in Class Woman sort of apologized to me about talking so much which made me feel bad--and of course, I said--"What?? Oh No!! I'm glad you asked all those questions!!!" I couldn't stand to hurt her feelings.
It was a dismal performance by me.
I feel sorry for your person, jes. But, I can understand where you're coming from. I think trying to develop a friendship with someone else may be good--you can still talk to B, but eventually, you and New Friend are going to walk away. She will be hurt, but not destroyed.
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kuvasz
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:08 pm
You are human. You have needs, desires, and foilbles. It is a good mark of your humanity that you are sensitive enough not to wish to hurt the feelings of another person, the glass of your life is more than half-filled.
But you have to be yourself and make sure that you act in an honest way about your emotional needs, otherwise you will eventually get angry at having to have sacrificed your self for no tangible return. The return does not have to be material it can even be spiritual, but if you are doing something because you believe others think you should behave a certain way and not feel that way itself, spooky things can happen to you.
on the other hand
as Joan Osbourne sang....
If God had a name what would it be?
And would you call it to his face?
If you were faced with him
In all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question?
*And yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, God is good
Yeah, yeah, yeah-yeah-yeah
What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
If God had a face what would it look like?
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that
you would have to believe
in things like heaven and in Jesus and the saints
and all the prophets (*)
Trying to make his way home
Back up to heaven all alone
Nobody calling on the phone
'cept for the Pope maybe in Rome(*)
Just trying to make his way home
Like a holy rolling stone
Back up to heaven all alone
Just trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
'cept for the Pope maybe in Rome
you might just be the best thing that ever happened to this woman, and she for you.
give her a chance.
and pet your dogs!
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Gala
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:09 pm
B. is probably so self-absorbed if you slight her she will move onto someone else. That's the pattern. Needy people who have no understanding of boundaries back-off quickly.
I work with a needy clingy woman (she doesn't smell) who only understands the language of a slight to get her to back off. At the moment she is wicked getting on my nerves so I'm extremely aloof to her. She backs off. When my mood is better I will chit-chat with her again, as she is just so damned grateful to have Some attention.
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ossobuco
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:25 pm
Some of these people may be quite smart. I'm sure Dorothea was. 'Tis me that is repeatedly confuseable. And I can tap into empathy for outcastness, and empathy for putting oneself out of the mix in a room. And see Kuvasz' point. I'm not a god person but I do think we judge on superficials way too much way too often. Still, a smelly boundary missing clinger is a project.
Interesting about the teacher. Wonder if the teacher will be quick to do that again...
Aside, I've been helped by people. When I was having my eye crisis two years ago, my surgeon picked me up from home and took me to his office.
Help is good.
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ossobuco
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:27 pm
Next thing to think about - does lack of understanding of boundaries eventuate in ever increasing neediness?
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ossobuco
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:32 pm
Lash, I understand the thing with SmartyPants, had a good laugh. There's probably a smart boor in every class, or maybe not, maybe every fifth class. Still remember the guy in the first row in Grading and Drainage. He had the teacher beside himself.
As to your own behavior, human nature, here we are.
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dlowan
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Tue 18 Jul, 2006 06:37 pm
ossobuco wrote:
Next thing to think about - does lack of understanding of boundaries eventuate in ever increasing neediness?
Yes, I would say it does, if it leads to social rejection, which it often does, except with folk with similarly poor boundaries...where it leads to overinvolvement, and subsequent explosions....
God, society is cruel.....animal and human. Life sucks when you don't fit in. Unless you can find your own little society of folk like you.
NOT saying Jes should act differently, just reflecting on how instinctive it all is.
Yup, dlowan. I agree 100% with that answer. We be animals. Doesn't matter how one gets to be the 'weak, outcasted' part of the herd: reaction and situation is the what it is.
I suppose it is only cruel if we choose to see it that way. If a wildebeest (as ex) has its leg broke and gets clipped off the pack...is that cruel, or simply nature?
Jespah, I feel your pain. Yes, I have encountered people like B_.
To be honest, at the time(s) it has happened, I had not the sensitivity to think twice about their feelings much. I can get along with such rather odd-ball folks - so long as holding my tongue is not a pre-requisite of friendship. If that makes any sense.
Truth is, these folks aren't thinking of YOUR feelings. They are 'out to lunch' as far as social concerns go - smelling, not observing boundaries, not considering how the teacher may not actually want to drive her but is doing it out of etiquette/discomfort/karma points/whatever.
So it is okay to say "Stop" or to be blatantly 'rude'. Don't worry. She most likely won't even register it. Kindness can be rather ugly to look upon sometimes, and you have no obligation to be her friend.
Take that as you will, but it is true. I don't feel sorry for them. Don't feel sorry! Seriously, why...no one wants pity-friendship anyhow.
So I guess I don't see anything wrong with simply saying "Listen, I would like some space. You seem like a nice person, but I'm not interested in sitting next to you every single day. Thanks for understanding." And go about your business. Be strong in enforcing your space and forget about it.
Am I a byiotch? Maybe. But it works.
Good luck! Sucks no matter how you cut it.
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Mame
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Wed 19 Jul, 2006 11:45 am
Jespah, I feel for you... haven't we all been there, done that at some point? Unfortunately, I think your best bet is to cool right down, grunt, be noncommital, pointedly say "I have things to do", "I'm not in the mood for a chat", don't make apologies, and bugger off as fast as you can... I'm positive she will get the point really fast.
You sometimes have to be cruel to be kind.
Your post made me laugh, though, because it brought back memories of similar events... but no more... now, I am an expert at avoid eye contact.
:naughty:
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