For Those That Are Christians.....

Arella Mae wrote:

Sorry Megaman, but I do believe there is a literal place called hell. If you don't, then you don't.

You are free to disregard my individual opinion. But with respect to the mistranslations and proper interpretations, you cannot throw out "my" opinion. I never gave an opinion. I did nothing more than relay the information provided by Bible translators. The information the Bible translators have are derived from decades of experience working with the original Hebrew and Greek texts that are the basis for your English Bible. In fewer words: you were arguing against the authors of the Bible.

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megamanXplosion wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:
MegamanXplosion Wrote:

Quote:
If you were referring ONLY to the fact that Jesus went there and preached then how come you responded saying "You obviously have your understanding of this and I obviously have mine." I think we both have an understanding that the passage says Jesus went there and preached. So where do we disagree on that passage as you so plainly suggested by saying we have different interpretations?

Haven't you been trying to tell me there isn't even such a thing as hell? Wouldn't that mean that we have different views on this?

Sheol is not hell.

neologist wrote:
No, for Mega explained to you that the place Jesus went was tartarus. That it has been translated as 'hell' is another point.

I think you may want to revisit what I have said. The Tartarus discussion was a separate one. I was talking about Sheol.

Arella Mae wrote:
Does this not at the very least imply there is no hell? If I am misunderstanding that, then I apologize.

Erase the word "hell" from your vocabulary. Start referring to things by their actual names, like Sheol, Tartarus, Hades, and Gehenna. If you start referring to things by their actual names this conversation would be a lot easier for others to follow.

As to the intent of what I said, I was specifically referring to the Christian view of an afterlife of eternal punishment. As such, the atheist's view of his or her own death (i.e., actual death) is supported by the Bible (after entering Sheol, but actual death in the end) while the view of an afterlife of eternal punishment for the infidel is not supported by the Bible.

neologist wrote:
I'm a little confused. I think the point Mega and I were both trying to make is that there does not exist a place of eternal punishment for sinful mankind. The punishment told to Adam and Eve was death and, indeed, ". . . the wages sin pays is death. . ." (Romans 6:23)

That was the point I was making.

neologist wrote:
Well thought and detailed answer, Mega. Thank you. I must say it is somewhat refreshing to read your dispassionate exposition. I've saved your post that I may revive portions of it later.

No, thank you. It is a rare occurence that I come across someone who actually cares how an atheist views the Bible. Most treat the atheistic perspective like rotten meat. With nothing more than a snap of the wrist and waving of the hand it is chucked in the garbage. It is refreshing to see someone take all views into consideration.

neologist wrote:
Jesus is more than once referred to as the 'first born of creation'. He apparently was given all of Jehovah's creative tools from the start. (Proverbs 8: 22-31). This would seem to indicate that intelligent life, not lifeless orbs, was the purpose of creation. God's creation of intelligent beings and his bestowing upon them the gift of free will is the ultimate expression of his greatest quality: namely, love.

There is a problem with using Proverbs 8:22-31 as support for the idea that it refers to Jesus: it is the female personification of wisdom. Many also use Colossians 1:15 as supported for the idea that Jesus was the firstborn of creation but that is the result of a bad translation because it should say "firstborn over all creation." Go to the verse in the New English Translation Bible and clicked on note 29 to see why. I cannot think of any other verses relating to the "firstborn of all creation" off-hand so feel free to point any out that you can think of.

Quite right on the last point megaman.

Prov 8 speaks of Wisdom as a passive observer of Creation.

The NT refers to Christ, not as passive, but the active Creator of all things.

Prov 8 is not a personification of Christ.

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Arella Mae wrote:

Sorry Megaman, but I do believe there is a literal place called hell. If you don't, then you don't.

If you aver there is a literal hell of eternal punishment, then you are saying that the God of the universe, the God of love, would mete out punishment more severe than any human father would deign to administer to his misbehaving children.

That's scary. And it is a lie.

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Neo,

I will not battle you on this issue or any issue concerning Christianity. If you don't believe there is a literal hell then you don't. I do not tell you that you are telling a lie just because you believe differently than I do and I surely do not appreciate you telling me that I was said is a lie.

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Arella Mae wrote:

Neo,

I will not battle you on this issue or any issue concerning Christianity. If you don't believe there is a literal hell then you don't. I do not tell you that you are telling a lie just because you believe differently than I do and I surely do not appreciate you telling me that I was said is a lie.

OK, just don't tell me you got it from the Bible.

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And I could say the exact same thing to you, Neo.

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megamanXplosion wrote:

There is a problem with using Proverbs 8:22-31 as support for the idea that it refers to Jesus: it is the female personification of wisdom. Many also use Colossians 1:15 as supported for the idea that Jesus was the firstborn of creation but that is the result of a bad translation because it should say "firstborn over all creation." Go to the verse in the New English Translation Bible and clicked on note 29 to see why. I cannot think of any other verses relating to the "firstborn of all creation" off-hand so feel free to point any out that you can think of.

I'll take your reference to Proverbs 8 as a female representation of the word wisdom without checking it myself. It wouldn't make any difference, would it? The entire nation of Israel is referred to as Jehovah's wife. (Isaiah 54:5, Jeremiah 31:32) Indeed, If Jehovah, as creator is referred to as masculine, then all creation subject to him would be referred to as feminine.

As far as real life's contention that the person referenced is a passive observer, it would be well to point out that he was also ". . . beside him as a master craftsman. . ." (vs, 30) He/She/The person obviously had much to do. And my point that life, not inanimate objects, was the purpose of creation is left unchanged.

As far as the scripture in Colossians is concerned, verse 16 goes on: ". . .for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him - all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions,30 whether principalities or powers - all things were created through him and for him."

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I saw that Neo!!! Laughing

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Arella Mae wrote:

And I could say the exact same thing to you, Neo.

Oops, I was trying to get back to an earlier post to edit. Now my clever comment has been lost forever.

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Arella Mae wrote:

I saw that Neo!!!

Yeah, well. Er. Whaat? Me? Never. . .

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http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/lmfao.gif

Neo, you are such a hoot!

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Some folks are just too durned serious. :wink:

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neologist wrote:

megamanXplosion wrote:
There is a problem with using Proverbs 8:22-31 as support for the idea that it refers to Jesus: it is the female personification of wisdom. Many also use Colossians 1:15 as supported for the idea that Jesus was the firstborn of creation but that is the result of a bad translation because it should say "firstborn over all creation." Go to the verse in the New English Translation Bible and clicked on note 29 to see why. I cannot think of any other verses relating to the "firstborn of all creation" off-hand so feel free to point any out that you can think of.
I'll take your reference to Proverbs 8 as a female representation of the word wisdom without checking it myself. It wouldn't make any difference, would it? The entire nation of Israel is referred to as Jehovah's wife. (Isaiah 54:5, Jeremiah 31:32) Indeed, If Jehovah, as creator is referred to as masculine, then all creation subject to him would be referred to as feminine.

As far as real life's contention that the person referenced is a passive observer, it would be well to point out that he was also ". . . beside him as a master craftsman. . ." (vs, 30) He/She/The person obviously had much to do. And my point that life, not inanimate objects, was the purpose of creation is left unchanged.

As far as the scripture in Colossians is concerned, verse 16 goes on: ". . .for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him - all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions,30 whether principalities or powers - all things were created through him and for him."

Wisdom is spoken of as being 'beside Him', not as the one doing the work as is clear from the context where the One doing the work is in the third person.

Quote:

23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.

25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains,

26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.

27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,

28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,

29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth

30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,

quote from www.watchtower.org
emphasis mine

In the NT, Jesus Christ is the One who Created all things that this passage refers to. Therefore Jesus is not personified by Wisdom in Prov 8.

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Arella Mae wrote:

And I could say the exact same thing to you, Neo.

The Greek and Hebrew texts were written by the actual people from thousands of years ago--the people who Christians commonly call the eye witnesses. Any recent English translation that disagrees with them are corruptions and nothing more. Neologist's views are supported by the original Greek and Hebrew texts. Your views, however, are not. You need to get the idea out of your head that English Bibles carry the same weight as the original texts. Neologist can, with 100% accuracy, say that your view is not supported by the Bible. You, however, cannot say the same about Neologists' views. To put it more bluntly: not all Bibles are created equal.

neologist wrote:

I'll take your reference to Proverbs 8 as a female representation of the word wisdom without checking it myself. It wouldn't make any difference, would it? The entire nation of Israel is referred to as Jehovah's wife. (Isaiah 54:5, Jeremiah 31:32) Indeed, If Jehovah, as creator is referred to as masculine, then all creation subject to him would be referred to as feminine.

It is a female personification. Wisdom was introduced to contrast against adulterers. Note that in Proverbs 7:4-5 and 7:25-26 it says "Say to wisdom, 'You are my sister,' and call understanding a close relative, so that they may keep you from the adulterous woman, from the loose (strange) woman who flatters you with her words... Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways – do not wander into her pathways; for she has brought down many fatally wounded, and all those she has slain are many." Wisdom, a female personification meant to act like a relative in your family, is introduced in Proverbs 8 to contrast with the ways of the adulterous woman. For the purposes of clarifying the contrast I will be posting the text only from Proverbs 8:1-2,5,11,20,22,30,35-36. "Does not wisdom call out? ... At the top of the elevated places along the way, at the intersection of the paths she takes her stand... You who are naive, discern wisdom! And you fools, understand discernment! ... For wisdom is better than rubies, and desirable things cannot be compared to her ... I walk in the path of righteousness, in the pathway of justice ... The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago ... then I was beside him as a master craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, rejoicing before him at all times ... For the one who finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord But the one who does not find me brings harm to himself; all who hate me love death."

When put into perspective it is quite clear what is being illustrated. Wisdom is not a representation of a person, such as Jesus, but as a personification of wisdom itself. Notice that wisdom is purported to be God's thoughts. Compare this with Genesis. Every day that passed in Genesis follows by Wisdom rejoicing and delighting God, and God was delighted and saw it was good and then rested. Proverbs 8 shows that God not only seen his creations as good but he also rejoiced. Wisdom, as presented in Proverbs 8, is essentially God's thoughts. Before God could've created anything he had to have had a thought so Wisdom was the birstborn of creation. It was God's Wisdom that was the master craftsmen. Contrast Proverbs 8 again with Proverbs 7. The adulterous woman is represented as death. Notice that it says you should not wander into her pathways. The pathway is of evil and unrighteousness. All of the people that have wandered down that path have been wounded. God's Wisdom says that it is the act of missing God's Wisdom that leads to harm. That is why all of those that wandered toward that path have been harmed. The one who is good is already on the path of good but the adulterous woman is luring the person toward the path of unrighteousness and thus the person brings harm upon himself. It is at the intersection of good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, that God's Wisdom takes its stand. You are given the choice of following the path of unrighteousness or turning back before it is too late. Those who reject God's Wisdom are hating God's Wisdom and choose death. The path of unrighteousness has slain many. It is those that find God's Wisdom and choose the path of righteousness that receive life and favor with God.

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OK, real and Mega:
Who or how is the master craftsman or worker related to wisdom in Proverbs 8:30? Why would this not be a person?

And, is not a person being referred to in Colossians 1:16 when it is said ". . . by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. . ."

Aside from my assertion that the passage in Proverbs refers to Christ, can we agree that it refers to a person? That was the point I was trying to make, right? That intelligent beings, not inanimate objects, was/ is God's purpose in creation.

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neologist wrote:

OK, real and Mega:
Who or how is the master craftsman or worker related to wisdom in Proverbs 8:30? Why would this not be a person?

And, is not a person being referred to in Colossians 1:16 when it is said ". . . by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. . ."

Aside from my assertion that the passage in Proverbs refers to Christ, can we agree that it refers to a person? That was the point I was trying to make, right? That intelligent beings, not inanimate objects, was/ is God's purpose in creation.

The Master Worker (Craftsman) spoken of in Prov 8 is indeed a person. He (masculine, in the passage) is spoken of as creating all things.

Wisdom, which is personified as a woman and she (feminine, a personification, in the passage) is spoken of as being 'beside' the Master, is not a person.

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The passage in Col 1 does not contain the word 'other' in the Greek text. The addition of this word is a corruption in the translation.

Even if you could argue for inclusion of this word, all you would gain would be a dilemma, since the verse would state that Christ created everything in heaven and earth, thus identifying him to be the One who created, not Wisdom which was beside Him when He made......

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Also compare with :

Quote:

John1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

2 This one was in [the] beginning with God.

3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

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And also

Quote:

Heb 1:8 But with reference to the Son: "God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners."

10 And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.

11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old,

12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."[/u]

These two quotations from the OT are said to be in reference to the Son.

The second quotation is from Ps 102 where it speaks of God creating the heavens and the earth, but the writer to the Hebrews indicates he said this in reference to the Son.

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So you're saying the first creation was not an intelligent being?

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neologist wrote:

OK, real and Mega:
Who or how is the master craftsman or worker related to wisdom in Proverbs 8:30? Why would this not be a person?

And, is not a person being referred to in Colossians 1:16 when it is said ". . . by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. . ."

Aside from my assertion that the passage in Proverbs refers to Christ, can we agree that it refers to a person? That was the point I was trying to make, right? That intelligent beings, not inanimate objects, was/ is God's purpose in creation.

Your confusion seems to arise from not knowing that Proverbs isn't meant to be taken literally. It is much like poetry mixed with personifications and parables. It is only with this interpretation will you be able to "discern the meaning of a proverb and a parable, the sayings of the wise and their riddles" (Proverbs 1:6). A personification is to represent objects or ideas as if they were persons or creatures so they may play a part of the story. A guy personifies his car when he says "I love her" and "She is beautiful." A parable is a fictitious story that is told for the sole purpose of illustrating a philosophical ideal. Take the story of the three pigs and the big bad wolf into consideration. Its sole purpose is to illustrate the philosophical idea that it is better to be safe than sorry. And then there is the riddles, which doesn't need to be explained.

Proverbs 7 and 8 should be interpreted with the same perspective one would approach the three pigs with. Wisdom isn't a real person. Wisdom is not meant to allude to any real person either. It certainly didn't allude to Jesus. In Matthew 11:19 Jesus states that "wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." Wisdom is a personification of the ideal of wisdom and understanding. Proverbs and Jesus both personified wisdom as a female much like guys do when they talk about their cars. The adulterous woman is also not a real person but a personification of unrighteousness. The story is meant to show that seeking wisdom is good and rejecting wisdom is bad. There is no deeper meaning than "seek wisdom and understanding" to be found in Proverbs 7 and 8.

There is only one riddle and that is regarding the master craftsman. Wisdom and understanding is the master craftsman. God could not have created anything without wisdom and understanding. Jesus also could not have created anything without wisdom and understanding. If one takes wisdom and understanding out of the picture then Jesus and God would become mindless drones incapable of creation. It is in this respect that wisdom is the master craftsman.

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It would be really a long stretch to assume the master craftsman, the one whom he was especially fond of, and the one who, in turn, became fond of the productive land and the sons of men would not have a personality. After all, Jesus is also referred to as the 'word', another personified expression.

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Are you trying to make a point? You have completely lost me.

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