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For Those That Are Christians.....

 
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2006 06:44 pm
to be safe , i think i'll sign up with ... http://www.mintruth.com/images/pat_robertson_is_the_devil.jpg
... i believe he has connections Very Happy .
hbg
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jul, 2006 10:50 am
EpiNirvana Wrote:

Quote:
So do you find peace in the 2nd coming, and end tyo suffering to forever be with Jesus... While billions are sent to hell for eterntity just choising the wrong religion, no matter how good you where in life, and what scares me is the call it God's love...


Funny, but you mentioned choosing. It is your choice and everyone else's choice whether you go to heaven or not. That old "try to make them feel guilty because we'll be in hell" ploy is getting tiresome. You make your own choices. No one does it for you.

And you haven't answered Intrepid's question yet.
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Im the other one
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 06:55 pm
Nirvana-

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people think we Christians 'freak out' at such things. Only the ones not expecting it are going to freak out in the end.

Reminds me of satanists who say we are afraid of them. Only a Christian "by name" might be, but that's certainly not the case with me. The only thing I'm afraid of in this world is...wel...I'll get back to you on that.

That's my 20 cents worth anywho. :wink:
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Im the other one
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 06:57 pm
Arella Mae wrote:
EpiNirvana Wrote:

Quote:
So do you find peace in the 2nd coming, and end tyo suffering to forever be with Jesus... While billions are sent to hell for eterntity just choising the wrong religion, no matter how good you where in life, and what scares me is the call it God's love...


Funny, but you mentioned choosing. It is your choice and everyone else's choice whether you go to heaven or not. That old "try to make them feel guilty because we'll be in hell" ploy is getting tiresome. You make your own choices. No one does it for you.

And you haven't answered Intrepid's question yet.


TOO tiresome. Rolling Eyes
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 06:59 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Where does it say that the unredeemed will go to a place of endless punishment?


EpiNirvana, you have still not provided an answer to my question. If you can't answer, please say so. Thank you.
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EpiNirvana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 09:50 am
i didnt know what your question was, sry.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

Theres some verses, and i will admit i have used the hell card to many times. And other one it not a loud freak out, but what i siad has lost meaning so many times. and isnt it "2 cents"?
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NWIslander
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 10:02 am
Quote:
Sometimes a cult starts up,...but usually not, and so far nowhere near as successfully as Christ.

Some of the lucky ones get treatment.


Earl, well put!
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 10:29 am
EpiNirvana wrote:
i didnt know what your question was, sry.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

Theres some verses, and i will admit i have used the hell card to many times. And other one it not a loud freak out, but what i siad has lost meaning so many times. and isnt it "2 cents"?
So, if you've been destroyed, are you still conscious?

'Cause when a person dies "In that day his thoughts do perish." (Psalm 146:4)
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EpiNirvana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 10:46 am
neologist wrote:
EpiNirvana wrote:
i didnt know what your question was, sry.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

Theres some verses, and i will admit i have used the hell card to many times. And other one it not a loud freak out, but what i siad has lost meaning so many times. and isnt it "2 cents"?
So, if you've been destroyed, are you still conscious?

'Cause when a person dies "In that day his thoughts do perish." (Psalm 146:4)


All right here we go, notice how all my verses are from the new testament... and yours is a verse from pslams saying, when your dead, your dead. Search hell in the bible it is only in the new testament. The Jewish faith has to sects of thinking, Pharisee and Saducee (sry about the spelling) the Pharisees believe in a life after death acording to GEHENNA or SHEOL found in the old testamnet, meaning separation form god. It was a place of eternal sleep. Hell in Christianity is brought from this. Saducees believe Psalm 146:4, b/c it is plain and clean, while Sheol is just a concept. It is completely accepted to be a Jew who believes there is no after life, b/c jewdism is about a love in god and serving him, not about a lifwe after death.

Now when Jesus came he took Gehanna (complete separtion from god) and made that hell, a place for the wicked. Now, there must be an opposite as in everything logical, heaven, gods dealling. Where the good must go. So hell is created by christians of the jewish specualtion...i have more but i must go. farewell.
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megamanXplosion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 11:31 am
EpiNirvana wrote:
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


The word "hell" is the result of a bad translation. Keeping the other parts the same, the passage should read "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in the Gehenna of fire." This is a very important distinction. The word Gehenna is Greek and was derived from the Hebrew Gêhinnôm. In the Bible it may be written as Ben-Hinnom. This is essentially a reference to the Valley of Hinnom where pagans outside of Jerusalem would sacrifice their children in a pit of fire. The villagers would also throw their garbage and add brimstone to this pit of fire to keep it burning, to get rid of trash, and to cover up the stench of the area. I do not know why the word "One" is capitalized as it refers to Moloch (or, as it is written in the Bible, Mo'lech.)


EpiNirvana wrote:
Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


The word "hell" is a bad translation here as well. Keeping the rest the same, the phrase should read "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to the judgment of Gehenna?" Jesus was essentially telling the others how they would be perceived by the pagans and asking them how they would escape from being burnt as offerings to Moloch or as criminals in the pit of fire outside Jerusalem.

EpiNirvana wrote:
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;


This is also a bad translation but it does not commit the same error as the two above. Keeping the rest the same, the phrase should read: "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to Tartarus, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement." Tartarus, from the Greek word tartarizo meaning "shivering cold," was essentially a (dark and cold) place reserved for the angels inside Hades. It should be noted that Hades was a pagan concept and is found nowhere in the Old Testament. You can clearly see the New Testament, through its adoption of Hades, intentionally or unintentionally began incorporating pagan concepts into their own religion. Whoever wrote 2 Peter 2:4 was confused about his own religion and was writing things that merely suited his flights of fancy.

----

If one takes the time, feel free to go through the Old Testament and pick out all of the instances of Hell, Grave, and Pit. You will see that the terms are interchangeable because they essentially meant the same thing. In the Old Testament the righteous lived forever but the unrighteous lived no more--there was no afterlife of eternal punishment. The concept of eternal punishment was introduced into the New Testament due to its mixture with Greek and Roman mythology either unintentionally by confusion or intentionally as a scare tactic.
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EpiNirvana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 07:11 pm
Well done megaman, Also most of the christian hell was taken from adonte's Inferno, which was taught in the catholic churches.
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

this was the only other hell i could find, and this is just a metaphor using Gehenna once agian. So i can find no teaching using an actual hell as is taught in most churches.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 09:03 pm
Good post mega.

It would be well to point out that both the Hebrew word qe'ver and the Greek word ta'phos refer to literal graves, while the Hebrew word she'ohl' and the Greek word hai'des refer to mankind's common grave, the dead in general.

Jesus promised those in mankind's common grave would be entitled to a resurrection (John 5:28). Those who never knew God would be first taught, then subject to judgment based on their deeds after coming to accurate knowledge.

Gehenna, is different, Those destroyed in the valley of Hinnom received no burial and no memorial. The judgement of Gehenna would be the same as the second death, from which there is no resurrection.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 11:38 pm
EpiNirvana wrote:
Well done megaman, Also most of the christian hell was taken from adonte's Inferno, which was taught in the catholic churches.
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

this was the only other hell i could find, and this is just a metaphor using Gehenna once agian. So i can find no teaching using an actual hell as is taught in most churches.


Does this mean that you agree when I said, "Where does it say that the unredeemed will go to a place of endless punishment?"

Most churches may threaten eternal damnation in hell. Mine does not.
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EpiNirvana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 08:54 am
Intrepid wrote:

Does this mean that you agree when I said, "Where does it say that the unredeemed will go to a place of endless punishment?"

Most churches may threaten eternal damnation in hell. Mine does not.


Hmmm...i guess your right. Very intriguing. What church do you belong to?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 11:17 am
Do you believe in universal salvation, Intrepid? If not, where do unrepentant sinners end up?
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megamanXplosion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Aug, 2006 02:06 am
neologist wrote:
Do you believe in universal salvation, Intrepid? If not, where do unrepentant sinners end up?


I don't know where people get the idea of universal salvation. It is not coming from the Bible. There would be no need for a second coming or day of judgement if all were to receive salvation. To even think there is such a thing as universal salvation is, to be completely honest, insane. I'm sorry but that is the only way it can be honestly described--how else could someone describe the belief that there is an eternal paradise awaiting Hitler? I think the entire idea of salvation is wishful thinking but universal salvation is a few steps beyond wishful...

As for the place where unrepentant sinners will go, they will die. Nothing more and nothing less. That is the teaching of the Old Testament. If one removes all of the translation errors in the New Testament concerning the words Sheol, Gehenna, and Tartarus and also remove the Greek mythology of Hades that doesn't really belong in Christianity, then there is nothing left to support the idea of an afterlife, whether a good one or bad one, for unrepentant sinners. What atheists expect to happen to them when they die is exactly what the Bible says will happen to them. How an atheist views his or her own death is what the Bible actually says will happen to them.

I wonder how many Christians would be ticked off to find out that an atheist's view of his or her own death is supported by the Bible while the Christian's view of the atheist's death is not? Twisted Evil
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 03:49 pm
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems to me as though these verses clearly state that there is a hell and people there are in torment.
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EpiNirvana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 07:51 pm
Arella Mae wrote:
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems to me as though these verses clearly state that there is a hell and people there are in torment.


Luck 16:23 In this verse hell was translated from Hades...Using a Greek Afterlife for a metaphor maybe? Who is telling this story? Also it is in the New Testament making this able to be one of Christians "cult" beliefs.

2 Peter 2:4 This verse was translated from Tatarus....Another name for Greek Hell, and this also was translated for "Chains of Darkness". Why would they use these words? It seams that they are a little weray in there own belief of life after death. Also 2 Peter 2:9 gives the thought that you will only be pnuished in hell till Judgement day....This was also true in Paul's Revelation were that hell wasnt eternal.

Matthew 5:22 Obviously a metaphor....This was to show a strong hate that god has for contept and unjust hatred of another. Jesus also used this hwehn he said cut of your right hand and cast it into the fires of hell...does jesus seriously want you to chop off your hand?...no of course not, it to show you that lust is a dramtic sin, so you should dramticly not lust...Same with this verse, dont hate!

Well.....howd i do?
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megamanXplosion
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 08:00 pm
Arella Mae wrote:
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


First I shall address a small translation error that is besides the point only to help clarify what is being said. The word "Raca" should not be capitalized nor should it even be in the translation. The word "raca" is an insult similar to dimwit, airhead, stupid, and so on. It is a sure sign of ignorance on the part of the translators to leave this word untranslated and to also needlessly capitalize it. The word "thou" shouldn't be capitalized either.

Anyways, the words "hell fire" are a bad translation because the original text says "the fire of Gehenna." Gehenna, as I've previously explained, is the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem. In the times of the Old Testament the Valley of Hinnom was a place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch. Between that time and the period of the New Testament being created, it started to become disassociated with Moloch and became increasingly associated with the death penalty of convicted criminals and "divine punishment" now that the location had been Christianized. By translating "the fire of Gehenna" as "hell fire" one will interpet "the council" as being God's council and that "hell" was a place of punishment for sinners. The words "the council" should've been translated as "Sanhedrin." Sanhedrin, also known as "the council," was the group of 71 Jewish sages that comprised the supreme court of ancient Israel. When put in its proper context the quote is not talking about a place where Elohim (God's council) would send sinners. Instead, it was being presented in a legal context. It was saying that you should not insult a brother because you could be thrown in prison. In Matthew 5:25 it states that if you are about to be brought into court you should try your best to become friends with the accuser in an attempt to avoid imprisonment. It also says that if you call one of the 71 jewish sages a fool in court then you will certainly face the death penalty of being thrown in the pit of fire outside Jerusalem in the Valley of Hinnom.

Arella Mae wrote:
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


The word "hell" here is derived from the word "Hades." Hades, as we all know, was a part of Greek mythology and not once was found in the Old Testament. Abraham is a fictional character that changed with the times. Indians brought the idea of the god Brahma and his consort Saraiswati to the Persians. They both experienced a slight name change, becoming Abram and Sarai. And again, they received another slight name change becoming Abraham and Sara. The Bible was essentially correct in saying Abraham (Brahma) came from "Ur of the Chaldeans." Ur means "place" and Chaldean, or more correctly Kaul-Deva (Holy Kauls), were Brahmanical priests. In essence, the Bible itself says Abraham (Brahma) came from the place of Brahmanical priests. Brahma was originally a god but was converted to a human as everything started becoming Christianized and people wanted Yahweh to be the one and only God. The words attributed to Abraham were never uttered by any person. They were inserted by Greek authors to help tell a symbolic story that it is not good to be rich and selfish. Anyone who tries to uphold a literal interpretation of this story is certainly a confused individual. But like I was saying at the beginning of this paragraph, Hades is Greek mythology that became mixed with Christianity as evidenced by the complete lack of the concept in the Old Testament.

Arella Mae wrote:
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


I have already talked about this passage. The word "hell" is derived from the name Tartarus. Tartarus was a word that essentially meant "shivering cold" and was a place inside Hades. (It wasn't another name for Hades like EpiNirvana suggests, it was a place inside Hades.) Hades, like I mentioned earlier, is Greek mythology and is a corruption of the early Christian teachings.
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EpiNirvana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Aug, 2006 08:27 pm
Quote:
I have already talked about this passage. The word "hell" is derived from the name Tartarus. Tartarus was a word that essentially meant "shivering cold" and was a place inside Hades. (It wasn't another name for Hades like EpiNirvana suggests, it was a place inside Hades.) Hades, like I mentioned earlier, is Greek mythology and is a corruption of the early Christian teachings.


Oh...I apologize. i should probably read back through my greek Mythology.
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