ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Let see so you are claiming that murdering women and children on buses is going to get the land back in some manner?

No. I think that's rather unlikely. I'm just trying to understand your concept of when violence, killing civilians and forcibly taking somebody else's land is acceptable.

So again, if I understand you correctly: if the Palestinians would defeat Israel in a military campaign and annex the country, you would be okay with that?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

More than half the Jewish population of Israel - 53 percent - is opposed to full equal rights for Israeli Arabs, according to a survey conducted last month by the Israel Democracy Institute.

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No one here is claiming that Israel is a perfect nation however if you would you care to compare the freedom/rights of Israel citizens both Jews and non-Jews to any other country in the middle east my friend?

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@old europe,

So again, if I understand you correctly: if the Palestinians would defeat Israel in a military campaign and annex the country, you would be okay with that?
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The point being that it would not matter one little bit how I would feel about it one way or another as that how land had always change hands in the sad history of the human race.

One other comment how can you wave your hand at the cold blooded killing by suicide bombing on the one hand and on the other cry about the Palestians who had picked the wrong side losing their lands as a result?

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

The point being that it would not matter one little bit how I would feel about it one way or another as that how land had always change hands in the sad history of the human race.

That's probably right, your feelings about it won't change the situation.

But it would still be nice to know whether your point of view is the result of some general principles that you regard to be true no matter which parties are involved or what the situation looks like, or if you're just taking Israel's side regardless of how Israelis and Palestinians actually act in this conflict.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Bill wrote:

Quote:

Let see you mean in the last month or the last few years or the last 5o years?

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With Israel, it doesn't make much difference whether we talk about a "few years or the last 50 years." Going back 50 years, most of the Jews were terrorists that destroyed many of the infrastructure of Palestine.

From Wiki:

Quote:

After the war, the Haganah carried out anti-British operations in Palestine, such as the liberation of interned immigrants from the Atlit camp, the bombing of the country's railroad network, sabotage raids on radar installations and bases of the British Palestine police. It also continued to organize illegal immigration.

On May 28, 1948, less than two weeks after the creation of the state of Israel on May 15, the provisional government created the Israeli Defense Forces which would succeed the Haganah. It also outlawed maintenance of any other armed force.

Famous members of the Haganah included: Yitzhak Rabin, Ariel Sharon, Rehavam Zeevi, Dov Hoz, Moshe Dayan, Yigal Allon and Dr. Ruth Westheimer.

The Museum of Underground Prisoners in Jerusalem commemorates the activity of the underground groups in the pre-state period, recreating the every day life of those imprisoned there.

Bill wrote:

Quote:

The last time that military force was used that I can off hand think of England taking back the Falken island by force large scale force as a matter of fact.

"Taking back" is the right words; so what's your problem? Argentina tried to occupy British territories, and the Brits responded. These can be considered "contemporary" issues of land, and it was settled with the Brits winning back what they considered British islands.

Bill wrote:

Quote:

And by the way please list the Democracy countries under constant attack other then Isreal?

Doesn't work that way, Bill. You must first answer my question; what country that calls itself a democracy steals lands forcibly and without compensation?

As for Israel being attacked, they're the robbers of land. Unfortunately, the only weapons being used by Hamas are non-effective missiles that misses its targets most of the time. If your land is stolen without compensation, how will you react? Will you use missiles, or will you use a gun?

1 Reply

@old europe,

My I am not sure where you are coming from for sure however if the Palestians and their government would start down the path of peace and keeping their word I would support all kind of things that would not off hand make Israel happy.

But as long as they go out of their way to be a threat to Israel security I see no reason to be concern for thier welfare.

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@BillRM,

Bill, You are myopic; the Israelis have been promising ceasing and returning occupied territories for many, many, years, but they keep building more settlements. Are you really that blind and stupid?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Israel flaunts agreements, continues settlement expansion
September 10, 1:17
PMSeattle Foreign Policy ExaminerCassidy Werner

Israel is going ahead with a settlement plan that will create 500 new homes in Jerusalem and 450 homes in the West Bank.

These announcements come despite efforts by the US to reach a settlement agreement with Israel. This agreement was necessary for peace talks between Palestine and Israel to resume. Now, any hope for even an informal dialogue between Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu at the UN General Assembly in September has been dashed.Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu attends the weekly cabinet meeting in his office, in Jerusalem, Sunday, Sept. 6, 2009. (AP Photo/Ronen Zvulun, Pool)

Israel agreed to stop settlements in 2003 as a part of an international road map to peace with Palestine. However, Prime Minister Netanyahu insists that there was an unofficial understanding that the “natural growth” of pre-existing communities would be allowed. This has resulted in the construction of hundreds of homes since the cessation agreement.

Israeli officials also deny that Jerusalem is occupied territory. According to international law, it is illegal to create settlements within occupied territory.

Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat expressed his doubt that the Obama administration can work effectively with Israel, asking “If you could not convince the Israelis to stop settlement activity, will anybody in the Arab and Islamic world believe you can make Israel return to the '67 borders or withdraw from settlements?" He has also said that because settlements continue despite a previous agreement to stop them, that any future promises of settlement cessation cannot be trusted.

UN General Secretary Ban Ki-moon and the European Union have also issued statements expressing their disappointment with Israel’s actions.

The creation of Israeli settlements often involves the unlawful eviction of Palestinian families.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

You had call for Israel to be attack by the surrounding Arab countries and wipe out had you not?

Not even knowing that had been try at least three times since 1948 by those countries!

Sorry but as long as Irsael is under the pressure of possiblely being under large scale attacks that no other country in the world is under they have every right to seize lands to help insured their survival from the kind of people who unlike you or I have access to military power and who wish to see your anti-Jewish dream of a people being wipe out come true.

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@BillRM,

No. What I said was that the Palestinians on their own cannot beat the Israelis in any war; they do not have the military weapons or the manpower to fight the Israelis.

Fact of the matter is, although Arab countries complain about how Israel continues to treat Palestinians, they are not interested in any conflict with Israel - political or military.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

UN General Secretary Ban Ki-moon and the European Union have also issued statements expressing their disappointment with Israel’s actions.
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And where was the UN when they was attacked by 6 or 7 countries at their birth or for that matter the times afterward?

Sorry but who care what the UN Secretary state or does not state? Only Jews haters like you more then likelywho wish to see them wipe out as a people.

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@cicerone imposter,

Fact of the matter is, although Arab countries complain about how Israel continues to treat Palestinians, they are not interested in any conflict with Israel - political or military.
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Of course not they try that three times and it did not work and unlike the Palestians they can learn if slowly.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

My I am not sure where you are coming from for sure however if the Palestians and their government would start down the path of peace and keeping their word I would support all kind of things that would not off hand make Israel happy.

I'm coming from your statements that you made earlier. If I'm not completely mistaken, your position roughly translates into "it doesn't matter whether land was forcibly acquired or not, it still rightfully belongs to the new owner as long as it was annexed in the course of a proper military campaign."

I'm just asking you whether you think this is generally true - if you would still stick to this position even in the hypothetical case where the Palestinians managed to defeat and occupy Israel in a military campaign.

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@old europe,

oe, I betcha Bill doesn't answer your question; but answers with a question. ha ha ha...

We're seeing a pattern here...

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@old europe,

still rightfully belongs to the new owner as long as it was annexed in the course of a proper military campaign."
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Right/rightfully or not in this content does not apply and that is my point!

Is it right that the US took over the southern US by force, or Jackson clear out the Eastern seaboard of the tribes even against a Supreme Court ruling?

Given the situation during that period it was going to happen one way or another and asking is it right is like asking is it right that the law of chemistry resulted in a gun working and killing someone! It is meaningless to ask right or wrong in this content once more.

Hell if the US had not taken over Hawaii islands the Japanese empire would had cheerfully done so. There was no way that Hawaii could have remained independent under the condition then existing.

Given the threat level that Israel had been under by it neighbors since it was created in 1948 it actions was limited assuming it did wish to keep existing.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Okay, let's drop the "rightfully" then. Let's say it doesn't matter whether land was forcibly acquired or not. Let's say that once annexed in the course of a proper military campaign (rather than by murdering women and children), the land belongs to the winner of the conflict.

If this is a fair representation of your position, would you still stick to this position even in the hypothetical case where the Palestinians managed to defeat and occupy Israel in a military campaign?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Survey: Israel yet to grasp concept of democracy
By Mazal Mualem

More than half the Jewish population of Israel - 53 percent - is opposed to full equal rights for Israeli Arabs, according to a survey conducted last month by the Israel Democracy Institute.

The general conclusion of the survey, which is dubbed the "Israeli Democracy Survey" and will be conducted every year, is that Israel is basically a democracy in form more than in substance, and that it has yet to internalize fully the concept of democracy.

The Pals have full rights of citizenship. However, many Jews, seeing that the Pals have no real loyalty to Israel, and in fact work against their country, understandably want to deny the Pals rights and even kick them out of the country. Do you remember how the Pals in Israel cheered when Saddam hit Israel with rockets?

1 Reply

@old europe,

If this is a fair representation of your position, would you still stick to this position even in the hypothetical case where the Palestinians managed to defeat and occupy Israel in a military campaign?
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If they managed by some magic to do so then they would be the new owners of the land and once more right and not right would not come into the matter.

Would I be happy to see the Jewish people at the kind mercy of the Palestians hell no. but my emotional reactions would not change one little thing now would it?

All the UN statements would not change anything only an outside military force such as the US could do so and if the Palestians was acting in a uncivil manner after their victory, as I am fairly sure they would, I would support my country using it military muscle to change the outcome.

Oh the used of legal or not legal when it come to actions of nations is also meaningless as long as we do not have a world government with the power to enforce it courts rulings.

So illegal settlements is a empty term.

2 Replies

@Advocate,

I'm sure Advocate wrote the following with a straight face.

Quote:

...seeing that the Pals have no real loyalty to Israel,,,,

Advocate, If the Pals don't have "real loyalty to Israel," why is that? Also, what proof do you have that they don't? Please provide reliable evidence, not your personal opinion.

During WWII and immediately after the war, white people would tell me "why don't you go back to your own country." I'm third generation American; where am I supposed to return to? As with Palestinians, if they were provided equal rights, they would have "more" loyalty to Israel. But when their lands and property are stolen, why should they have "loyalty" to a country that steals their property?

Advocate wrote:

Quote:

... and in fact work against their country, ...

Exactly how are they "working against their country?" Please provide evidence of this.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Bill wrote:

Quote:

So illegal settlements is a empty term.

It's empty to people like you who have no sense of humanity, democracy, and legal rights to property.

You are a poor excuse for an American and human.

1 Reply

ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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