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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 12:34 pm
@BillRM,
Bill wrote:
Quote:
Those who did not leave are now citizens of Israel and in no way forfeit their lands.
+

Why do you continue to lie about this very important issue? Have you no shame?

News from Ireland.
Quote:
Israel pushes ahead with its plan to make the Palestinian State impossible to achieve by constructing more illegal settlements on stolen Palestinian land. The US is doing nothing to stop this and would appear to be giving tacit approval behind the scenes for Israel to break international law and bury any hopes for peace.

Erekat: Approval of construction unacceptable - Israel News, Ynetnews

Reports that Israel plans to approve the construction of hundreds of housing units in the West Bank before implementing the settlement freeze that was agreed upon with the United States has angered the Palestinian leadership.
Top Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said on Friday the planned Israeli move is "unacceptable". Earlier Friday an aide to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, "The prime minister plans to approve the construction of hundreds of news housing units in Judea and Samaria, before the freeze."

"I think the only thing that will be suspended by this announcement is the peace process," Erekat said.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuPAn...layer_embedded
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 01:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
In what way had I lie dear friend? The Pals who remain in their homes inside Israel proper after 1948 still have those homes and are citizens of Israel.

That is a fact that is not in question that I am aware of!

Your story you quoted have nothing to do with the matter of what happen to the non Jews that did not leave their homes after Israel was declare a state in 1948.

Frankly conceding the behaviors of the Pals for the last 60 years I would go with a President Jackson solution to the problem and move them far far away from my borders.

Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 01:17 pm
Hamas has largely stopped its missile attacks, replacing them with gunmen who fire at areas bordering on Israel. That way, there are fewer air retaliation attacks by Israel.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2009/me_hamas0722_09_11.asp
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 01:39 pm
@BillRM,
Here, Bill, see if you can comprehend the content of this article. Please, without generalities, provide factual evidence to the contrary.

Quote:

Israel's distortion of the "Land for Peace" process


by Ray Hanania

Some much is being made these days by pro-Israeli commentators, Israel's apologists in the West and its many anti-Arab spokesmen about the great lengths that Israel's defeated prime minister Ehud Barak went to achieve peace.

How often do they write: "Barak went further than any previous prime minister of Israel to offer more land to the Palestinians. Once again, the Palestinians have missed the opportunity of a lifetime."

Of course, since these writers never provide the whole picture, it sounds so believable. And the Palestinians look like their refusal to compromise was the cause of the current calamity and the election of rightwing fanatic and accused murderer Ariel Sharon as Barak's' successor.

But the argument is flawed, and in a very serious way. To cast it in its proper context, it should go something like this: "The Israelis have again exploited an opportunity to refuse to make peace with the Palestinians, because it has never been Israel's desire to compromise with the Palestinians. "

The truth is, the Israelis do not want to make peace with the Palestinians. They want to make peace with all the other Arab countries because they have a selfish interest in doing so. But they do not want to return the lands they stole from the Palestinians in 1948 and again in 1967.

In order to understand the sinister policies of Sharon and his fanatic leadership in Israel, you have to understand the true premise behind the concept of "Land for Peace" which is the alleged foundation of the negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

For example, the concept is premised on several United Nations resolutions, including 242 and 338. These resolutions make it clear not only that the Palestinians have a right to statehood, but that Israel must return the land it captured by military force in 1967.

That land includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Arab East Jerusalem. The Palestinians accept these resolutions as acts of compromise. In otherwords, the Palestinians made the first gesture of compromise in this sordid tale of Israeli deception and lies that have marked their involvement in the so-called peace process from the beginning.

Israel rejected both resolutions, which in essence declare that Israel cannot keep the land it captured by military force and it cannot expel the Palestinian civilians who live on that land. Since 1967, that is exactly what Israel has been doing, violating the terms of an international resolution by the very organization, the United Nations, that they relied on to establish their own existence in 1948.

Land for peace means that in exchange for a peace, Israel returns the land.

Instead, Israel has done everything it can to keep the land. And it has done everything it can to change the land. And, even more insipid, the Israelis have stolen the land and forcibly expelled its inhabitants. In the processing of doing so, they even went as far as to cast the homeowners on the land as the villains.

What did Barak offer that was so great?

Well, for the Israelis and all of their media apologists and defenders, Israel decided to carve off a sliver of Jerusalem and offer it as if it was the grandest offering ever made in the history of the world.

It only goes to show how greedy the Israelis are and how deceitful they are, too.

The Israelis have controlled 75 percent of the City of Jerusalem since 1948. They stole that, too. In 1948, they were supposed to take the proposed Jewish State, but it wasn't enough. And long before the Arab Armies mythically attacked in May of that year, the Israelis had already engaged in a campaign to steal the rest of Palestine. In fact, Israel captured 10 major Arab cities that were located in the proposed Arab State BEFORE the British fled and the so-called Arab invasion began.

And, they tried to take Jerusalem by force, too. They succeeded in capturing the new sectors of Jerusalem, expelling the Christians and Muslims from those areas, but they failed to capture the Old City, which was their intended goal. When they did capture it in 1967, the remaining 25 percent of Jerusalem, they immediately began an inhumane campaign to expel the Christians and Muslims. Their first act was the destroy the Arab homes that were adjacent to the Wailing Wall and they expelled the residents. It was done in much the same manner as the Nazis stole Jewish land and expelled the true owners early in its campaigns in Poland.

So Barak was really under great pressure not to return any portion of Jerusalem. The small sliver of land he did offer was insignificant and worthless in the context of Palestinian rights to that city.

The Palestinians, in fact, had already compromised so much. The negotiating position had written off all of the lands Israel stole in 1948, including those 10 major Arab cities taken by military force prior to the declaration of their state and the so-called Arab invasion. And, it also had written off the so-called "New City" of Jerusalem which really was an extension of the Old City of Jerusalem, and occupied illegally in 1947, the year before.

The Israelis did offer to give us back parts of the West Bank. In fact, they offered it as three separate parts that were not linked to each other. This was done to protect the illegal settlements the Israelis have built since 1967, in violation not only of the United Nations -- remember, this was the agency that gave Israel its stamp of approval -- but also in violation of the Geneva Convention, which Israel does not recognize.

(The United States recognizes the Geneva Convention and we hold everyone else up to its standards, except Israel.)

The truth is that it is the Israelis who have missed an opportunity to make peace. And it is clear why. They never intended to make peace with the Palestinians, and their word is as untrustworthy as their history

(Ray Hanania is a Palestinian American writer based in Chicago and a regular contributor to MMN. His columns are archived on the web at www.hanania.com)

Source:

by courtesy & © 2001 Ray Hanania
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 01:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Israeli Settlements on Palestinian and Syrian Land

Map showing the many Israeli settlements that have been built on the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza Strip and in the Syrian Golan Heights.
Israeli Settlements on the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza Strip and in the Syrian Golan Heights (as of 1996).
source: UN

Following the 1967 war, Israel began establishing numerous settlements, or illegal housing developments for Jewish Israelis only on stolen Palestinian land (colonies). There are now thousands of these settlements throughout the West Bank and Gaza, as well as numerous settlements in the Syrian Golan Heights.

Settlements are one of the major blockages to a peaceful and just resolution to Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians and other Arabs. The "roadmap" to peace calls on Israel to dismantle these settlements and to return the land to the rightful owners. Unfortunately, Israel continues to expand existing settlements and to build new ones.

Israeli settlers, who are known for their Jewish fundamentalism and desire to take the rest of Palestine (and perhaps even parts of other Arab lands) for Israel, usually carry large guns. They travel on specially built “bypass roads,” that now crisscross the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Palestinians are not allowed to use these roads.

Learn more about Settlements.
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BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 08:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You seem to have the ability to find anti-Israel articles however from a large amount of your postings you seem to know very little indeed about the history behind the conflict or the history of the region.

I am hardly an expert myself but you seem to know so little it is amazing for someone who seem to have such a high interest in the subject matter.

Strongly suggest you go to your local library and read up on the subject and not only books by anti-Israel authors either.

I know it is simpler for you to have a simple black and white view of the world and the evil Jews in it however it does you no great service and just place you in a group going back thousands of years of blind Jews haters.

We all know that you hate Jews but that seem to be all you can add to this thread.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 09:02 pm
@BillRM,
Bill, You do the same thing as those people who fail to answer direct questions; please challenge what is posted with credible sources, not your denials or refutations that have no credibility in this thread.

Quit using ad hominems and straw man arguments; it just doesn't fly very high when you just say I don't know what I'm talking about - or the source's information aren't true. I have posted articles from the BBC, human rights organizations, the UN, and even some Jewish writers.

I know, we're all Jew-haters and anti-Semites. Let's get past these ad hominems, and respond with some sources that supports your position.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 10:16 am
Hamas is really amazing. It kidnaps a soldier from within Israel, and then makes incredible demands of Israel for the soldier's return.


Hamas: Talk about Shalit deal a joke


Hamas denies recent media reports hinting prisoner swap will be completed within days

Ali Waked Published: 09.12.09, 18:14 / Israel News




No reason for optimism: Reports about an imminent deal to secure the release of captive IDF soldier Gilad Shalit are detached from reality, Hamas says.



"The deal will only be completed when our demands are met," a Hamas source told Ynet, characterizing media reports about a Shalit deal within days as a "joke."



"I understand the competition among media outlets, but we're not responsible for these reports," he said. "There are no draft agreements and there is no specific weekend where the deal is supposed to take place. There is no rule that requires the deal to take place during the holiday season. It will take place once the terms for it are in place, and this will happen when our demands are met."



Hamas has not given up its demand to see Israel open the Gaza Strip crossings on a regular basis, the source said. He added that while great efforts are being made in order to advance a prisoner swap, there is still a long way to go before such deal can be finalized.


"We demand that Israel adopt several moves in the framework of the deal, headed by the opening of the crossings on a permanent basis and the provision of all the types of equipment and food whose transfer to the Strip had been curbed," he said. "In addition, we demand an Israeli obligation to put an end to all acts of aggression and repeated attempts to enter Palestinian territory in the Strip."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 10:27 am
@Advocate,
You would bring up an incident involving one Israeli, but ignore the facts about Palestinians in Israeli prisons.

From Wiki:
Quote:
On 17 April 2008, the annual day of commemoration for Palestinian Prisoners, Adalah: The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, published a summary report of statistics noting that there were 11,000 Palestinian prisoners being held in prison and detention in Israel, including 98 women, 345 children, 50 members of the Palestinian Legislative Council, and 3 ministers of the Palestinian National Authority.[8] Of these 11,000 Palestinian prisoners, 8,456 were from the West Bank, 762 from the Gaza Strip, 552 from Jerusalem, and 132 from within Israel itself.[8] In October 2008, Haaretz reported that there are 600 Palestinians being held in administrative detention in Israel, including "about 15 minors who do not know even know why they are being detained."[9]


Do you still believe Israel is a democracy?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 03:07 pm
World church group urges freeze on Israeli settlements
Quote:
The World Council of Churches has called upon the Israeli government to "implement an open-ended freeze" on all settlement construction and expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem "in preparation for negotiating peace in good faith" in the region.

"Even as Israel's own right to exist evokes sympathy and solidarity around the world, its policies of expansion and annexation generate dismay or hostility," the WCC public statement asserts.
[...]
In a 1 September interview with the German Protestant news agency epd, the WCC's general secretary-elect, Norwegian Lutheran theologian the Rev. Olav Fykse Tveit described the settlement policy of Israel as being "very hard to understand". The settlements are one of the main barriers to lasting peace in the Middle East, he stated.

Tveit, who was elected by the WCC governing body on 27 August to succeed the Rev. Samuel Kobia as its general secretary, said that when he takes office in 2010 he wishes to have contacts with both sides in the conflict.

"Our struggle for the rights of the Palestinians is not anti-Semitic, quite the opposite," said Tveit, who is co-moderator of the core group of the WCC-linked Palestine Israel Ecumenical Forum. A resolution of the Middle East issue would also create security for Israel and its Jewish citizens, he stated. "The World Council of Churches has always stressed that Israel needs to exist within internationally recognised borders."
[...]
Speaking at a 2 September media conference, the Rev. Gregor Henderson, a member of the WCC committee that drew up the statement, told journalists it was specifically directed to the issue of Israeli settlements and was not attempting to address the Middle East conflict as a whole.

"The WCC has spoken out on violence on both sides many times," said Henderson. "While we are particularly taking issue with Israeli settlement policies in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, we stand against the violence whichever way it goes."

As recently as 2005, the WCC governing body asserted, "that churches must not be complicit in illegal activities on occupied territory … and have opportunities to take economic measures that are equitable, transparent and non-violent against these illegal activities and in support of peaceful solutions to the conflict."

While the WCC called for non-violent resistance to the ongoing occupation, the burden for resolution of the conflict falls heavier on Israel, said central committee member the Rev. Carmen Lansdowne of the United Church of Canada during the WCC governing body meeting.

"Two sides in conflict doesn't necessarily mean a balance of power," she said in support of the statement. "We have to be careful how we present Palestinian aggression. I'm a pacifist, but when our statements call for more from Israel, it's because they are an occupying power and we have to reflect that."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 03:39 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
From Walter's post that deserves repeating, because my advocacy for the cessation of settlements will gain Israel more respect and greater chances for peace.
Quote:
"Our struggle for the rights of the Palestinians is not anti-Semitic, quite the opposite," said Tveit, who is co-moderator of the core group of the WCC-linked Palestine Israel Ecumenical Forum. A resolution of the Middle East issue would also create security for Israel and its Jewish citizens, he stated. "The World Council of Churches has always stressed that Israel needs to exist within internationally recognised borders."
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 05:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Proof that Israel has gained respect will be when the non-Israeli Palestinian Arabs repudiate the doctrine held by many among them of murdering and conquering Israel. The Israeli government would be fools to trust any agreement with the non-Israeli Palestinian Arabs that did not include the repudiation by these Arabs of the doctrine of murdering and conquering Israel.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 06:24 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

World church group urges freeze on Israeli settlements
Quote:
The World Council of Churches has called upon the Israeli government to "implement an open-ended freeze" on all settlement construction and expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem "in preparation for negotiating peace in good faith" in the region.




Walter, do you see the chutzpah of the WCC, in that Jews can live with people of other faiths peacefully, since they do not proselytize, and Christianity can today claim to be a world-wide religion of over a few billion adherents, because of the theological need to save the world through proselytization. So, today, with so few Jews in the world, due to the excesses of Christians, a Christian organization now wants to help Jews live in a smaller closet in their own country. That is chutzpah. If it was not so audacious, it would be humorous!
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 06:43 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
So, today, with so few Jews in the world, due to the excesses of Christians, a Christian organization now wants to help Jews live in a smaller closet in their own country.


Last time I checked, the West Bank was not really part of Israel. Has it finally been annexed?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 07:13 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Foofie wrote:
So, today, with so few Jews in the world, due to the excesses of Christians, a Christian organization now wants to help Jews live in a smaller closet in their own country.


Last time I checked, the West Bank was not really part of Israel. Has it finally been annexed?


I would not know; however, there are Islamic Palestineans living in Israel. Why can Jews not live in the West Bank? Why do only Pals get to have their own turf, without other occupants?
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 07:25 pm
@Foofie,
Are the "Islamic Palestineans" that are living in Israel building walled off, segregated settlements within the country? Do they have the support of an outside military occupation force? Are they building settlements with the goal of absorbing the entire country into a neighboring country?

Because if the answer is "no", then I don't think you can compare the situation of Palestinians living in Israel to the position of the settlers in the West Bank....
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 07:47 pm
@Foofie,
Excesses of christians? ROFLMAO You sure can use a word, but fail the comprehension of it when comes to the Jews of Israel; they not only steal Palestinian lands, but have killed innocent children - tens times more than the Palestinians killing Jewish children (and most of those were accidental more than being intentionally targeted because their rockets are shot nilly-willy. The IDF shooting innocent Palestinian children have witnesses. In your world, numbers don't mean much, except when you want to talk about the holocaust.

And what the WWC seeks is chutzpah, because it's the truth and nothing but the truth.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 08:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
As I said you have a completely one sided view point of the world base on little knowledge of the true situation hell you did not even know that the Palestinians had a government with 30,000 men under arms!!!!!!

Other then you hate Jews you have nothing beyond that to add.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 08:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Oh my friend just for a laugh what is morally worst in your opinion "stealing land" or going out and finding defenseless women and children to blow up on buses or shopping centers?

Yes they for the most part are only Jews or people who are willing to live in peace with Jews so blowing them up is no big deal correct my silly Jew hating friend?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 09:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Just for the record I am happily sitting/living/owning land that was “stolen” by military force from the country of Spain that they had “stolen” from the local tribes who in turn had “stolen” the land from other tribes on and on and on into the dim past.

I guess any of the former owners would have some moral right to begin bombing shopping centers and public means of transport to protect the seizing of their lands and I and other would be wrong to defense ourselves and placing the bombers in prison or in any other way punishing them?

In fact Cicerone Imposter if you care to give me the area that you are living in I will see if I can find who you had “stolen” your land from and therefore have a right to kill you and your family.
 

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