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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 02:23 am
@JTT,
As an American, Advocate, you really are in no position to be casting aspersions on other nations. There's been no shortage of brutality from the USA.

The Japanese did do some awfully brutal things before and during WWII but the Americans basically condoned such behavior, seeking to acquire the knowledge gained from all that vicious vicious brutality.

There's not much difference between the perpetrator of vicious acts and the accomplices to those vicious acts. In fact, in this case, the accomplice actively sought to hide the crimes [and did] and then retrieved for themselves the results of that brutality
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let see if you study serial killers you are one yourself or at the same level or if you study a mean of attack that you never yourself used then you are as bad as someone who developed such an attack means?

The word I am looking for is BULLSHIT.

.

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 02:26 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Yes I am sure that it happen that way not and when you are fighting in the middle of a build up area and taking fire from all around then some people that are non-combat might get kill white flag or no white flag. That is shocking NOT.

Stop supporting the killers that are your sons in the middle of your population and then and only then will you have a right to complain.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 09:05 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:


The reason my opinions are not received by you as "valid rhetoric" is based on your fear that I'm right and you're wrong. How can my rhetoric be wrong when I advocate for fair treatment of all humans? Please explain why that isn't so. It doesn't matter how long ago Palestinians may have had a "very nice standard of living" in Israel.



I am not fearful that you are right and I am wrong (where did you learn the neato ability to read minds?). Your rhetoric is wrong, regardless of whether you advocate for fair treatment of all humans, since you make reference to "Jews," as opposed to Israel (the government body, since there are left-wing Israelis, peacenik Israelis, all types of political positions by Israelis), and when it comes to Pals you do not seem to condemn the actions taken by the militants by making direct reference to the specific group. So, a reader can misconstrue that any Pal that is a casualty is just an innocent civilian; there might not be any real militants in Gaza?

And, it does matter how long Pals have had a decent standard of living in Israel at the behest of Israel, since it shows the CONTEXT of the current hostilities. NO HOSTILITIES PRIOR TO 1967, AND PALS LIVED NICELY. HOW YE SOW, SO SHALL YE REAP!

CI, could you explain to the thread's audience why you chose Israel as your "concern du jour"? You must be aware of some of your audience thinking that you might have some axe to grind with Jews in general, regardles of how many Jewish bosses you had. You might even know that the famous line from the 1950's movie Gentleman's Agreement was, "some of my best friends are Jews." That was the standard cover for being a covert anti-Semite, so many readers might just think that "my boss was Jewish and promoted me" can be another diversion. I am sure you are a true philo-Semite, and do not follow in the footsteps of those that hate for prejudicial reasons. I declare this day, Be Friendly to a Japanese-American Day.


Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 09:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

http://i30.tinypic.com/30x9awl.jpg
http://i26.tinypic.com/v3g7i8.jpg

Israeli soldiers killed unarmed civilians carrying white flags in Gaza, says report

Quote:
While relations between Human Rights Watch and Israel have never been comfortable, the series of reports that HRW has released since the war in Gaza has brought both Israeli officials' criticism of the group to a new pitch of intensity. They accuse the organisation of having an anti-Israeli bias, despite the fact that HRW has also forcefully criticised Palestinian rocket fire out of Gaza that targeted civilians. Israeli media commentators have tried to accuse the group of being part of a campaign to present Israel as "a primary perpetrator of war crimes". More recently the group's US and Israeli critics have suggested that a series of meetings to encourage human rights campaigning in Saudi Arabia was a fundraising trip underpinned by its record of criticising Israel, claims that the group has vigorously denied. The Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev referred to these allegations in an attempt to rebut the latest report and questioned the group's "impartiality, professionalism and credibility".




The only problem with this post is that I cannot help but personally disqualify someone, who has German citizenship, from giving input on ethics relating to Israel. I know you were not an adult when the Nazis were in power; however, I just think the world should teach other nations the lesson that if a nation follows a demi-god, that nation's citizens will lose ethical credence, for a few hundred years or so, regarding those who suffered under the demi-god. Sort of like many Amercian Jews will visit Spain 500 years after the Inquisition, but will not visit Germany 65 years after the Holocaust.

I understand that you, and other readers, will likely not agree with my position; however, it is no different than the inverse, meaning if Israelis started giving ethical advice on the treatment of Turkish guest workers in Germany, I do not believe many Germans would not find that intrusive and audacious (inasmuch as they are the descendants of survivors of the holocaust, and should mind their own business, especially being fortunate enough to be alive from Holocaust survivors).
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 09:49 am
@Foofie,
I didn't "choose" Israel; it chose itself by calling it a "democracy," and the majority of Americans not knowing it's factually an apartheid state.

A2k is much a forum of entertainment as it is educational, and I find the misinformation being spread by "you people" about how Jews justify the treatment of Palestinians to be improper and unethical.

As a matter of fact, there is a very good article in today's WSJ that describes a Palestinian development in the West Bank that is growing economically at phenomenal rates. The IDF has left the area, and the Palestinians are policing the area themselves. This just started this year, and the progress is heart-warming.

It proves I am right and you are wrong; all Palestinians do not need to be treated as criminals, and when given the opportunity, they can live in peace.

The criminal element in Israel is Hamas, not all Palestinians.




cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 09:51 am
Foofie wrote:
Quote:
The only problem with this post is that I cannot help but personally disqualify someone, who has German citizenship, from giving input on ethics relating to Israel.


You are a blind, ignorant, fool! Walter had absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust. Yet, you use a large brush to discredit Walter because he is German.

You are a racial bigot of the worst kind. The white flag incident in Gaza was report by the human rights organization; Walter just posted the same report I read in this morning's newspaper. How do you "disqualify" that?

Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 10:04 am
@JTT,
Your comments are a non-sequitur inasmuch I never said the USA had clean hands. However, we never approached the gratuitous mistreatment that the Japanese visited upon innocent civilians, prisoners, et al. While the USA may have sought the results of Japanese experiments on its captives, the USA never came close to duplicating such experiments. The USA did not use 50,000 captive women as field "comfort" women for the troops, which the Japanese did. The USA military never did anything approaching the bestiality the Japanese visited upon the civilians of Nanking. Etc.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 10:28 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
Quote:
Your comments are a non-sequitur inasmuch I never said the USA had clean hands.
I never said you said that! Go back and read what I wrote, then come back and repeat what I wrote. Please translate my post correctly. I never used the words "clean hands" in any of my posts. Your's is a straw man and non-sequitur response.

How many times must I tell you that I agree with you on the Japanese (of Japans) many crimes against humanity. What are you trying to say or prove by repeating such garbage? I am not Japan Japanese, I am not Japanese Mexican, I am not Japanese Jew, I am not Japanese German, etc., etc., etc. I condemn all inhuman treatment by all countries/cultures/tribes/race/gender whether in the past or now.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 10:32 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
The only problem with this post is that I cannot help but personally disqualify someone, who has German citizenship, from giving input on ethics relating to Israel. [foofie's continuing tripe deleted]


foofieism after foofieism after foofieism and they get more inane, more ridiculous, more convoluted all the time.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 10:38 am
@Advocate,
It really is a terribly inane argument to point to a more horrific criminal and bleat, "See, I'm not as bad as them".
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 10:40 am
@JTT,
If that is what he's trying to attempt, he needs to grow up!
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 04:57 pm
This past week, Fatah, the controlling faction of the Palestinian Authority, held its first conference in two decades in an effort to revamp and revitalize itself in the face of defeats by its main political rival, Hamas, in the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections. Some of the old guard were replaced by younger members of the party in the face of criticisms of stagnation, cronyism, and fraud that lead to their losses in those elections. The party assembly elections saw the nomination of Fatah's Jewish member, Uri Davis, who refers to himself as a Palestinian Hebrew, to the assembly. The party further iterated their Right of Return, demand for Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state, and the legitimacy of resistance as international law allows against the continuing Zionist occupation of Palestinian lands since 1967. "We will not stand helpless in the face of Israeli incursions," said party leader Mahmoud Abbas during the conference. He further explained that the movement must pursue other means of resistance such as civil disobedience.

The state of Israel allowed the conference to be held in the West Bank town of Bethlehem in the view that a revamped Fatah--the party with which it could negotiate a peace deal with the Palestinians--would be better able to challenge Hamas in the next Palestinian legislative elections.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 05:02 pm
@InfraBlue,
Ah, yes, Bethlehem, the birthplace of Christ (the bibles claims such). Here's a very good essay on Bethlehem. I hope everybody reads it.

Quote:


The Wall Around Bethlehem

March 14, 2005
"Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it." - Abraham Lincoln

By Zack Bernard Sabella
Jerusalem

It breaks my heart to drive into Bethlehem every morning to witness an additional block being added to the so-called Israeli security wall. Inch by inch, the width of the wall is blocking the main street that leads into the heart of the holy city of Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ. As I extend my sight to the hilltops of Bethlehem and its neighboring cities, there I find it, standing 8 meters tall gazing at me as my memory replays the past years of conflict and my thoughts start pouring on how Bethlehem, the cradle of Christianity, came to become a big, crowded prison.

"A wall?" I ask myself. "Is this the solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?" Every morning, tears come to my eyes as I observe the shade that the wall imposes on the green hills of Bethlehem. A feeling of anger erupts in my heart as I feel powerless and helpless. Who can I appeal to? Who can I object to? Is this peace and justice? Questions start challenging my logic as I fail to convince my own curiosity with fake answers. As I lift my face to look at the cloudy skies, I address God with my tears: "How long? Until when? Are you really there?" I recall the word "peace" as I shake my head with distress. A word that echoed in my mind ever since I was a child being crammed with political propaganda from both sides on the Arab-Israeli conflict. Nothing seems logical anymore.

As I drive deeper into Bethlehem, I find myself in a society striving to survive in a city sealed off from the rest of the world. This will be one of the main cities of the future Palestinian state, surrounded by a cement wall that will limit its people's movement, its economic trade and its connection with the outside world. As I stroll around the streets of Bethlehem, I observe carefully the faces on the streets and I see features of frustration and sense a will to survive and go on. Slowly, the patriotic hunger to establish a viable Palestinian state and the fight to lift the Palestinian economy is being put to sleep as Palestinians witness the wall encircling Bethlehem. They slowly acknowledge that they are on their own in the fight for survival and that the strong overtakes the weak in a world full of hatred and injustice. The dreams of statehood and freedom are contradicted with individual worries about economic welfare, such as putting bread on the table every night for children to eat. I ask myself again: "Do my people, so eager to live free and independent, deserve this?"

Just by looking at it, for those who have not seen it yet, I assure you this is no wall that will bring security, this is not a solution to an ongoing conflict, this is not a way to give the Palestinian people their rights to live free and establish a state of their own. It is very hard for me to understand how the international community and the countries of the world have no roar to stop this at a time where people should learn from history and not repeat it. The Israeli people, a people subjected to appalling persecution by the Nazi regime should know exactly the pain and suffering inflicted upon their families from years and years of mental and physical oppression in the form of camps, revelation of identity in public, social isolation, mass killings and other methods used to deny them their right to existence. The daily life of the Palestinian, is it not a reflection in the mirror? From all peoples in the world, one expects the Israeli people to understand the type of injustice enforced daily on the Palestinians. Yet, refugee camps, daily killings, constant military occupation, checkpoints, construction of walls and fences all still exist, ironically, in the name of security.

How am I to maintain hope and optimism for peace and coexistence if I live this everyday on my way to work? How am I, as a Palestinian, who lived in the Israeli society, truly be a spokesman to my friends and family about the prospects of peace when everyday on the outskirts of Bethlehem I find a new block of cement welcoming me? What type of state will Palestine be? What type of peace will the Middle East have? Unfortunately, when I think of just answers to these questions, that is where I fail to deliver. Unconsciously, I know I am living a lie and that my dreams are further delayed by new Israeli security enforcements such as the wall.

Someone wise once said: "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Peace in itself is intangible, yet it starts in the inner self of every one of us. One cannot maintain something intangible by building tangible obstacles like what Israel is doing with the construction of the wall. Peace is not a walk in the park, it is hard to achieve and it requires sacrifices and compromises. It is accomplished neither by checkpoints nor by walls, neither by economic sanctions nor by the control of an entire people. It is achieved by good will and determination to comfort not Israelis nor Palestinians, but the very essence that binds us together, that of which is the human spirit.

I am a Palestinian. Let history recount my people's culture and heritage, we are no terrorists nor are we savages. We are a wonderful people, who seek no more than what others possess, freedom and independence. We do not deserve to live inside a prison for dreaming and, by God, we shall not. A sun of hope dawns on Bethlehem every morning when I see a city flourishing with a people giving out a clear message to the world: "No wall will block our visions and dreams. Nor will it weaken our everlasting will to build our country with our bare hands. Nor will it make us depart our beloved land and abandon our dear home. It will only feed our hunger to exist and strengthen our unity as a people."

I leave you with a quote from the ruling of the International Court of Justice on the issue of the wall constructed by Israel:-

"Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defense or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall." - International Court of Justice



Our tour group went into Bethlehem to visit the site where Christ was born.

This is the cement fence that surrounds Bethlehem.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/P1010055.jpg

These people are looking at the spot where Christ was born.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/P1010065_edited.jpg
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 06:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:



It proves I am right and you are wrong; all Palestinians do not need to be treated as criminals, and when given the opportunity, they can live in peace.

The criminal element in Israel is Hamas, not all Palestinians.



I never said Palestinians need be treated like criminals. Plus, you sound juvenile saying that you are right and I am wrong. So, as long as you like to be juvenile, I would believe I am bigger than you. So there.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 06:23 pm
@Foofie,
Whether it is juvenile or not, it's still the truth. Is that the best you can do? Juvenile?

As you can see from the cement fence surrounding Bethlehem, all Palestinians in Bethlehem are being treated as criminals. That's a prison if you don't recognize it. Do you know of any other place on earth, in any country in the world, where supposed innocent people are being treated the same way as they are in Israel?

I do not believe there is any doubt that that is a prison.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 06:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Quote:
The only problem with this post is that I cannot help but personally disqualify someone, who has German citizenship, from giving input on ethics relating to Israel.


You are a blind, ignorant, fool! Walter had absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust. Yet, you use a large brush to discredit Walter because he is German.

You are a racial bigot of the worst kind. The white flag incident in Gaza was report by the human rights organization; Walter just posted the same report I read in this morning's newspaper. How do you "disqualify" that?




I am not disqualifying Walter per se. I was trying to explain that since Germany was the direct impetus to Israel's creation in 1948, regardless of how old the Zionist movement is (and did not effect a State, until the Holocaust left a few hundred thousand displaced persons stateless afterwards), then ANY German citizen might have a little sensitivity in not criticizing the politics of said state that only came into existence, in the 20th century, as a direct result of the genocidal actions of the Fatherland (regardless of whether the Fatherland is under the rule of a Bismarck, a Kaiser, a Hitler, or a German Democratic Republic, the citizens still identify themselves as (good) Germans).

So, it would be nice if Germans just focussed on being the big cheese of the EU, and did not comment on Israel, since Israel, and Jews, really had the full course dinner, so to speak, of German thinking back in the 20th century. It is not like everyone is pro-Zionist; you can surely fill in the vacuum, if all Germans never even mentioned the word "Israel" again.

And, if Israeli Jews do not all live up to your standards of correct moral and ethical behavior, could there be a cause and effect due to trying to survive in the Middle East, surrounded by neighbors that gave them four wars in the 20th century? And, the connection to Germany, is that the Jews that dominated Israeli politics have all been of European descent. Gee, what are Europeans doing in the Middle East? The answer is Germany and the genocide that occurred in WWII. So, like when a game warden says too many of a certain animal has been hunted, and there needs to be a respite in hunting that animal (so it can increase its population), maybe German citizens should give Jews a respite in their current moral thinking, since only 65 years ago the thinking was not so moral.

I would guess there are Chinese today that do not want to listen to the advice from any native Japanese. Now do you see my point?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 06:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Whether it is juvenile or not, it's still the truth. Is that the best you can do? Juvenile?

As you can see from the cement fence surrounding Bethlehem, all Palestinians in Bethlehem are being treated as criminals. That's a prison if you don't recognize it. Do you know of any other place on earth, in any country in the world, where supposed innocent people are being treated the same way as they are in Israel?

I do not believe there is any doubt that that is a prison.


Well, when Jews were put in ghettos in different countries, it was not because they were martyring themselves as suicide bombers on the population outside the ghetto. Cause and effect my dear Watson.

Ghetto is really the correct term, not prison. Prison is just too, too dramatic a word.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 06:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Christians and Jews are behind the same wall as the Arabs in Bethlehem. That wall exists to protect not imprison any and all those behind it from Arab bombers, and to protect the sacred locations behind it from Arab bombers.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 06:52 pm
@Foofie,
No, as a matter of fact, I don't see your "point."

Anyone is free to express their views of the world without any shame on any event they were not personally responsible for. Your sense of "sensitivity" belongs on the laffer curve, not on a discussion board such as a2k.

I'm not responsible for any other Japanese (domestic or foreign) no matter what their residence was or is and any sin or crime they committed; nor is anyone else. What happened in history is the past; learn to live in the present.

As a matter of fact, your attempts at trying the blame game who were not even involved is juvenile at its worst.



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 06:54 pm
@Foofie,
No, and who says that was right? Go back and read my posts; I do not condone wrongdoing by any group to any other group - in the past or in the present.

Would you like me to highlight that for you so you'll remember. I can do that in larger fonts, in bold, or in color.
0 Replies
 
 

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