ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Robert Fisk in today's Independent: Lessons in justice and fairness from a no-nonsense historian

Quoting Ave Shlaim, Robert Fisk wrote:

“The UN resolution provided an international charter of legitimacy for the Jewish state. True, the Arabs were not responsible for the barbaric treatment of the Jews in the heartland of Christian Europe. Most Arabs consequently felt that the gift of part of Palestine to the Jews was illegal. However, a resolution passed by the UN General Assembly by a large majority cannot be illegal. It may be unjust but not illegal. Injustice and illegality are not the same thing. What is legal is not necessarily just.”

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Infra, no Jew could survive in the WB and Gaza. Jews would be murdered forthwith. But Pals and other nationalities live in peace with full rights in Israel.

This could reflect a world-wide sociological phenomenon that non-Jews move into Jewish "neighborhoods" (and are ready to start calling the neighborhood "theirs"), but the inverse is not welcomed often, I believe. The only "group" in the U.S. that accepts a neighborhood to be fairly mixed with Jews and themselves are Italian/Italian-Americans. Perhaps, that might be because Jews and Italians have been neighbors for 2,000 years, and both might remember a better time when the world was smaller?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Robert Fisk in today's Independent: Lessons in justice and fairness from a no-nonsense historian

Quoting Ave Shlaim, Robert Fisk wrote:
“The UN resolution provided an international charter of legitimacy for the Jewish state. True, the Arabs were not responsible for the barbaric treatment of the Jews in the heartland of Christian Europe. Most Arabs consequently felt that the gift of part of Palestine to the Jews was illegal. However, a resolution passed by the UN General Assembly by a large majority cannot be illegal. It may be unjust but not illegal. Injustice and illegality are not the same thing. What is legal is not necessarily just.”

It might not even be unjust, if one argues that if the Arab countries wanted to be part of the "family of nations," they might need to be part of a solution for the excesses of hate in the 20th century. No taxation without representation, also means no representation without taxation.

Based on the above thought of mine, I believe the establishment of Israel was neither unjust, nor illegal. It might even be thought of as reparations of sorts for the second class citizenship that Jews had to endure in Moslem countries for centuries. All Jews are not our Ashkenazi Hebrews. The Sephardim make up more than half of Israel, I thought.

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@Foofie,

725,000 Sephardi Jews and nearly 3 million Ashkenazi Jews live in Israel (according to various encyclopedias).

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

725,000 Sephardi Jews and nearly 3 million Ashkenazi Jews live in Israel (according to various encyclopedias).

I am not comfortable with those numbers. Specifically, since there are Sabras (native Israelis) from intermarriages of the two groups, and the popular culture is Sephardic. The Hebrew is Sephardic Hebrew not Ashkenazi Hebrew (i.e., Bat Mitzvah, not Bar Mitzvah). Let us not forget the burgeoning population of Ethiopean Jews. They had a wonderful time starving in Ethiopea.

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@Foofie,

Your statement about the acceptance of Jews is crazy. I have never heard of Jews being driven out of any neighborhoods. What is your proof?

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Many Jews, and their decendants, in Israel were forced out of Arab countries.

Jewish exodus from Arab lands
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See also: Antisemitism in the Arab world and Islam and Antisemitism
Antisemitism

The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced out or fled their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel in 1948-1951, 600,000 by 1972.[1][2][3] The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of a coordinated effort among Arab governments to create physical and political insecurity.[4] Most were forced to abandon their property.[2] By 2002 these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[3] One of the main representative bodies of this group, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[5][6] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel).[1][6] The organization asserts that the Jewish exodus was the result of a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab league.[7]

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Your statement about the acceptance of Jews is crazy. I have never heard of Jews being driven out of any neighborhoods. What is your proof?

I never said "driven out." When you can paraphrase me without using inflammatory rhetoric, we can exchange thoughts.

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@Foofie,

Is this "driven out" similar as the Palestinians in Israel?

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The UN in 1947 resolved that Palestine, where both Jews and Arabs already lived, be divided into two states: one Arab; one Jew.

TO WHOM DOES PALESTINE BELONG?

Here's an abbreviated chronology of the ownership of the land called Palestine (some years are approximate). The Encyclopedia Britannica, “Palestine,” is the source.

2000 BC: First Canaanite Culture.
1400 BC: Eqypt conquers Palestine.
1300 BC: First Israelite Culture.
1100 BC: First Philistine Culture.
1000 BC: Saul King of Palestine except Philistra and Phoenicia.
0721 BC: Israel is conquered.
0333 BC: Alexander the Great conquers Palestine.
0135 BC: Maccabees conquer all Palestine.
0040 BC: Romans conquer Palestine.

0638 AD: Arabs begin conquering Palestine.
1099 AD: Crusaders conquer Palestine.
1187 AD: Saladin conquers Palestine.
1244 AD: Turks conquer Palestine.
1516 AD: Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1831 AD: Egypt conquers Palestine.
1841 AD: Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1918 AD: Ottoman governance of Palestine ends.
1918 AD: British Protectorate of Palestine Begins.

1920: 5 Jews killed, 200 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1921: 46 Jews killed, 146 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1929: 133 Jews killed, 339 wounded; 116 Arabs killed, 232 wounded.
1936-1939: 329 Jews killed, 857 wounded; 3,112 Arabs killed, 1,775 wounded; 135 Brits killed, 386 wounded; 110 Arabs hanged, 5,679 jailed.
1947: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish State and into an Arab State.
1948: Jews declare independence and establish the State of Israel.
1948: War breaks out between Jews defending Israel and Arabs invading Israel.
1948: State of Israel successfully defends itself and additionally conquers a part of Palestine originally granted by the UN to the Arabs.

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@ican711nm,

The problem that I see in this litany of landholders is that Arabs conquered a lot more land than Palestine, as part of their territorial focus, including North Africa. I do not know of any other piece of land, other than Israel, that Jews have conquered, and claimed it is now "Jewish," like Arabs have claimed that conquered lands are now Moslem. The willingness of some to cede land to Palestine Arabs might be encouraging Islam in having an avaricious attitude to land for Moslem control and habitation, in my opinion. Let us not forget that their population is growing in Europe. What is the end game?

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@Foofie,

Big difference; those lands that the Arabs may have "conquered" and is now under Muslim control, does not mirror how the Palestinians are treated in Israel. All the different religions are accommodated without barbed wire or cement fences, and everybody has free movement within the country of residence.

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DO NOT OVERLOOK THIS PIECE OF HISTORY:
1920: 5 Jews killed, 200 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1921: 46 Jews killed, 146 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1929: 133 Jews killed, 339 wounded; 116 Arabs killed, 232 wounded.
1936-1939: 329 Jews killed, 857 wounded; 3,112 Arabs killed, 1,775 wounded; 135 Brits killed, 386 wounded; 110 Arabs hanged, 5,679 jailed.

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@cicerone imposter,

The Pals built those walls and fences through their unrelenting terrorism against Israel and Jews.

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@Advocate,

Advocate, You are one confused individual. You lack common sense and logic. Israel is the only so-called "democracy" that creates prisons for Palestinians. Their lands are stolen, they have no property rights, they cannot travel freely in their "own" country, and are all treated as criminals without being charged of any crime. The minority of Palestinians, usually Hamas, are the perpetrators of violence against Israelis. In a democracy, the police should be the ones handling crime. A democracy does not accuse any one minority culture as criminals and puts them into a prison environment. That's what is known as an apartheid state. Only racial bigots think as you do.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

The Pals built those walls and fences through their unrelenting terrorism against Israel and Jews.

Well, at least the Israelian Chief Justice Dorit Beinisch and the Supreme Court are in favor of "illegal Beduin and Arab constructions".

ooops, you're perhaps just writing one of your lonely opinions and not referring to actual politics in Israel?

My bed.

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From Reuters:

Quote:

U.S. tries to spur Middle East peace talks

By Jeffrey Heller Jeffrey Heller " Sun Jul 26, 10:49 am ET

JERUSALEM (Reuters) " The United States launched a fresh drive on Sunday to restart Middle East peace talks, sending senior officials to the region to deal with issues ranging from Jewish settlements to Iran's nuclear ambitions.

The visits by Middle East envoy George Mitchell, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and National Security Adviser Jim Jones were a strong signal from U.S. President Barack Obama of his intention to keep Israeli-Arab peacemaking high on his agenda.

Obama's demand, in accordance with a 2003 U.S.-backed peace "road map," to freeze Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem has met stiff resistance from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

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@cicerone imposter,

It is the responsibility of the non-murdering Palestinians who do not reside in Israel to police the murdering Palestinians among them. Currently they do not even attempt to police the murdering Palestinians among them.

If the Palestinians who do not reside in Israel want Israel to do the policing all they have to do is sign a treaty to that effect with the Israelis.

Until the non-murdering Palestinians residing outside of Israel either start policing the murderers among them, or sign a treaty with Israel to do it, the non-murdering Palestinians have no one other than themselves to blame when they are casualties of Israel's attempts to exterminate the murdering Palestinians.

Of course, any treaty between Israel and the non-murdering Palestinians will require that the non-murdering Palestinians agree to recognize Israel's right to exist.

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@ican711nm,

ican, Where's your brain? When does the citizens of the US make sure they are responsible for the prevention of crimes in their neighborhood? That's why we have police and fire fighters; it's their duty and responsibility. We can make citizen's arrests in certain circumstances, but our society today do not get involved with other people's scraps and problems.

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@cicerone imposter,

I know.

I know where Ican's brain is.

It's in his ass.

1 Reply

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