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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 05:45 pm
@freedom4free,
I love the nuts cases with false flag theories that never have any proof or even logic behind them.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 05:50 pm
@Foofie,
Must you ask such stupid questions where the answer is without doubt?

When wars are started without good cause and it kills innocent people, it's much worse than when it's for defensive purposes from attack. Even then, how people viewed wars from history does not have the same impact of contemporary wars. Collateral damage is viewed more negatively today.

As for my use of the word enures, it was my spelling that was a mistake; nobody would have noticed the difference if spoken verbally, and the meaning would have been obvious.

I wrote in my previous post:
Quote:

Most all cultures understood this; that the civilian population always supported their military most often led by a civilian leadership.


It really didn't need a qualifier, but you had to respond with (which added nothing):
Quote:
History has always had warlike societies. Peace can then be "unjustified" for those societies.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 06:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:


When wars are started without good cause and it kills innocent people, it's much worse than when it's for defensive purposes from attack. Even then, how people viewed wars from history does not have the same impact of contemporary wars. Collateral damage is viewed more negatively today.



I believe you are presupposing that there is some objective definition of a war with a good cause. All wars are started for the benefit of the aggressor. "Good" cause or "bad" cause does not exist, other than for those that want to assign to a war some type of moral highground, I believe. Your use of the term above of "much worse" means nothing, in my opinion, other than in the lexicon of those that want to assign a degree of rightness or wrongness to a war. War and moralizing really do not go together, until the smoke clears and a victor gets to write the history books. The only key to a good cause for a war is to win the war and write the history books.


cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 06:14 pm
@Foofie,
It's probably because you never heard of the "good war."
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 06:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That is just a popular notion, promulgated by a government.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 06:45 pm
@Foofie,
So what you're saying is that if anything is promulgated by government, it's not meaningful or you have other more popular notions? If you're in agreement, why don't just say so?

You never heard of Studs Terkel?

Quote:
"The Good War" - Studs Turkel's 5th oral history - was published in 1984. ... Studs Terkel's The Good War is a very entertaining set of oral histories about ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 05:10 am
A report in Der Speigel translated explains that Brita GmbH, a German company, had imported home water carbonating machines and syrup from an Israeli company, Soda-Club, which made them in Maale Adumim, a settlement on the West Bank. The products had been labelled "made in Israel" and attempts were made to import them duty free.

But the main customs office in Hamburg’s harbor refused to allow this policy to continue. The exporter didn't certify where exactly it was produced (either settlement in the occupied territories or Israel), so there's duty now on the products. Which the importer doesn't like.

It ended at the Financial Court in Hamburg. And the judges there asked the EU-court to give an opinion.

So, in a couple of weeks/months, we'll get an official/legal EU-definition about the borders of Israel, something the EU itself obviously never wanted to say openly.
But now, due to some thousand EUROs duty or not ...

Spiegel report (in German)



Edited: English translation in Business Week
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 01:46 pm
With Hamas, it is difficult for the message to sink in.


First Gaza rocket for a month hits Israel: army
(AFP) " 1 day ago

JERUSALEM " The first rocket fired from the Palestinian enclave of Gaza in more than a month landed in southern Israel on Thursday evening without hurting anyone or causing damage, the Israeli army said.

"The rocket fired from the Shujaiya district of Gaza City fell in a field near the Nahal Oz kibbutz," a military spokesman said.

It is the first time since June 13 that the army has reported a rocket being launched towards Israeli territory.

The army said more than 200 rockets and shells have been fired from the Gaza Strip towards Israel since the Jewish state's 22-day offensive against Hamas, Gaza's rulers, in December and January.

Operation "Cast Lead", which led to more than 1,400 Palestinian deaths including hundreds of civilians and which devastated swathes of the coastal strip, was officially aimed at ending the firing of rockets from Gaza.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 01:57 pm
@Advocate,
Most of the Hamas rockets from Gaza does very little damage if any, but what it does is it creates fear. When the Israelis use their rockets, it kills innocent men, women and children.

You must learn to be able to weigh the real cost of lives (on both sides), and not when Hamas shoots off ineffective rockets.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 05:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Most of the Hamas rockets from Gaza does very little damage if any, but what it does is it creates fear. When the Israelis use their rockets, it kills innocent men, women and children.

You must learn to be able to weigh the real cost of lives (on both sides), and not when Hamas shoots off ineffective rockets.


You mean "fear" like the Japanese Americans having to go to internment camps in WWII, and not knowing what will happen to them? Real good for one's psychic health, if one is being sarcastic. I would believe you do not trivialize the fear that Japanese Americans had during that history. Perhaps, you should not trivialize the fear of Israelis, unless you have bought into the mythology that Israelis are fearless. They are not fearless, but I do believe as a society, they are quite aware that much of the civilized world considers them "dispensable," as was their ancestors in WWII.

The "innocent men, women, and children" are getting killed, since the rocket shooters choose to launch rockets in the middle of civilians. Are you giving them a free pass to launch rockets from a civilian area?

The rockets from Hamas are not ineffective. Anyone within a certain range get shrapnel.



ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 06:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Oh, what the hell! A Hamas rocket a day keeps the doctor away!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 06:43 pm
@Foofie,
You are being silly. I don't equate what Japanese Americans suffered in segregation camps to what the Jews suffered during the holocaust. They are totally two different experiences. Only a few Japanese Americans were killed by US soldiers, but six million Jews were exterminated. No comparison.

It was not "fear" for many of the children in the camps. You don't understand anything about the camps except what you "think" happened, and your conclusions about us is totally wrong. So quit playing the psychiatrist - or mind games. It will not work on me!

FYI, the Japanese Americans that served in the US military were heroes; they won the most medals of any battalion of equal size; many volunteering from the concentration camps while their families lived in prison and loss of freedom.

Who ever said Israelis are fearless? That's your idea, not mine. Our guide in Israel, Gilad Peled, told us about how he feels about the bombings; he fears for himself and his family - a wife and young child. On the other side of this is the Palestinians who must live without much freedoms; even families who have lived in Israel for generations. I'm not sure how you'll feel if you were treated in similar fashion here in the US - or any country you might be a citizen/resident of.

I try to look the issues from both sides fairly. I just know that guns, tanks, and apartheid walls to control the Palestinians will never bring peace to Israel.

cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 10:30 am
@cicerone imposter,
And this is from "today's" news from the mouth of Israel's leader:
Quote:
Netanyahu says West Bank barrier to stay for now
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected on Wednesday any notion he would order Israel's barrier in the West Bank to be torn down in response to the absence of Palestinian attacks from the occupied territory.


You do know what a "barrier" is, don't you? How would you feel living outside of any "barrier" in the US - or anywhere else for that matter?
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 11:59 am
@cicerone imposter,
You neglected to mention that the Pals are not Israeli citizens. The Pals object to the barrier because it keeps their suicide bombers from blowing up buses, bingo parlors, etc., in Israel.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 12:00 pm
@Advocate,
You see everything in reverse; there would be no need for suicide bombers if they enjoyed the same freedoms and legal rights.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You see everything in reverse; there would be no need for suicide bombers if they enjoyed the same freedoms and legal rights.


I thought you were against all parties having casualties. If that is so, you should not make reference to a supposed "need" for suicide bombers. I thought you did not have any moral relativism?
Advocate
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Israel does not control Pals outside the country. They have their own rulers.

Remember, they attacked Israel before Israelis set foot in their areas.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:21 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie, You are being silly; you fail to understand the basic human needs required in a democracy, and that includes "freedom to move from one place to another without guards with guns and fences, and have the same legal rights as everybody else."

When humans give up hope of having freedom and/or the same legal rights, they commit atrocities to make their voices known, and that includes committing suicide. With the many job losses in our country, some fathers have taken to shooting his own family dead and committing suicide. When people have no hope left, killing and committing suicide is rational for some people.


Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:


When humans give up hope of having freedom and/or the same legal rights, they commit atrocities to make their voices known, and that includes committing suicide. With the many job losses in our country, some fathers have taken to shooting his own family dead and committing suicide. When people have no hope left, killing and committing suicide is rational for some people.





Sorry, the above explanation does not reflect your field of expertise. I have no reason to think you are qualified to lecture on the subject.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:33 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie, I'm not "lecturing" anybody. What I'm stating are facts from knowing and understanding some human behavior that's pretty much common knowledge - and in our news media. It's okay for you not to accept what I post, but the least you can do is explain why my opinion is wrong.

I'm stating a personal opinion; it's not "lecturing" except to people like you who misinterprets many things other than my posts.
 

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