ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

@cicerone imposter,

Here's one article by a Jew that describes the intentional destruction of Palestinian records.

Quote:

July 27, 2006
Israel targets Nablus administrative records for destruction

Prior to Wednesday, the muqata’a was a large government building in Nablus, Palestine, originally built by the British in the 1920s and used until this week for civil government functions. It contained the archives of civil documents of the region, containing “hundreds of thousands of file cases and documents " birth and death certificates, identification records, passports and other travel documents, ledgers of hand written information " a heritage of historical information about Nablus residents that covered more than 100 years of successive Palestinian occupations under the Ottoman Empire, the British Mandate, the Jordanian kingdom, and the current Israeli regime.”

On Wednesday, Israeli troops showed up and destroyed the building with explosives - after staffers offered them entry to the building in order to go after the militants they were seeking. Once the building was reduced to rubble, according to Gale Courey Toensing in “First, Destroy the Archives,” Israeli soldiers drove over the broken file cabinets with bulldozers, mixing their contents with the earth to prevent their recovery. Destruction of the enemy’s information infrastructure is strategically understandable as a way of further weaking their ability to function as an organized society, but strictly in terms of fairness and human rights it’s the kind of thing that makes sympathy with Israel’s position impossible for me. (And I say that without losing any of my great pride in my Jewish heritage. Israel does not represent me as a Jew.)
Filed under: Archives, Government Information, Information Ethics, International, Preservation by " Rory Litwin @ 2:34 pm

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Seriously, the Arabs were not the only people who were or have occupied that land. The Israelis can trace their heritage back to a time when they, the Jews, did occupy that land as a nation complete with borders, a government, and recognized leaders. And they were forcibly evicted from it against their will or wishes. Can the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians say that the land has ever been theirs with their own established borders, government, leaders?

According to at least one study, you are making a false distinction between two populations of people who are both native to that area.

http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

Quote:

What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).

Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants.

Which makes perfect sense of course. When the Islam spread, it didn't spread through population replacement, it spread through conversion. The Jews lost people to both Christianity and Islam, but ethnically they are still all from the same place.

And FYI, there are folks sitting in refugee camps in Gaza and elsewhere who have deeds to homes inside Israel. It doesn't seem to do them any good.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

We are 'stuck' because nobody seems to be able to figure a way out of the dilemma but many of us Americans are committed and tied to the problem. I have an emotional stake in Israel because of my religious beliefs. I have a financial state in Israel because some of my taxes are subsidizing it, a condition I am not complaining about, and, frankly, Israel would not otherwise be able to survive. And I have an intellectual interest in Israel as a necessity for a group of people who have been persecuted and/or discriminated against just about everywhere they've ever been and deserve a place where they don't have to endure that. And I have a decades-long fascination with the 4000+ year old culture and history.

I did not think the U.S. supplied arms to Israel during the 1948 war? Also, before Israel became the recipient of U.S. armaments, they were getting Mirage jets from France. I think Israel's armaments industry is becoming fairly self-sufficient. And remember, the tax dollars that go to Israel for their armaments tend to go back to U.S. industries. Your tax dollar is just making some stocks more profitable; Israel is not fat-catting on your tax dollar.

But, since you might have a religious (non-Jewish) concern for Israel, it could be argued that that is not a specific enough ethical reason to virtually meddle in their foreign affairs, by virtue of your voiced opinions. I personally feel that if and when Jesus returns he might just tell the news media that the Gentiles did not really follow his teachings well, and can someone direct him to Jerusalem. You know he was quite content to just maintain the Jerusalem church. He left proselytizing to Paul (nee Saul).

And it is nice that you have an "intellectual interest" ... "for a group of people who have been persecuted and/or discriminated against just about everywhere they've ever been"; however, where were you when the Cossacks were coming over the hill, when my family was in Russia prior to the 20th century. Since it is not your fault you might be a philo-Semite that is a little bit of a "Johnny come lately," can you see that your concern may just reflect a self-serving interest, in a history that existed back to the Greco-Roman/Egyption times? Whether Jews/Israel survive, or not, this thread just tells me, in my opinion, that some non-Jews (aka, Gentiles) may just like to feed themselves the illusion that their opinions matter, in a world that is run by forces that the average person may have little awareness of. Just my opinion.

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@Foofie,

You can accept that the Israel exists because of the backing of the USA or not. It doesn't matter who supplies arms to Israel to appreciate the dynamics involved, but it's a free country to think whatever you think.

I think you know very little of me, my background or my postings, or what I have spoken out about or in what context or what I know of other bad scenes in the world. I accept that you think I--apparently only me?--have no right to speak any opinion on Israel and, anything I say will apparently be seen as meddling by you. That's cool. We are all entitled to our opinions.

But again, the better part of prudence would suggest it unwise to snub or condemn or criticize those who are genuinely your friends and who are on your side. I started this thread because I was deeply concerned about the events in the Middle East at that time. And I have taken considerable grief for my support for Israel. If you think that not a good thing, well, again, it's a free country.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

I accept that you think I--apparently only me?--have no right to speak any opinion on Israel and, anything I say will apparently be seen as meddling by you. That's cool. We are all entitled to our opinions.

But again, the better part of prudence would suggest it unwise to snub or condemn or criticize those who are genuinely your friends and who are on your side. I started this thread because I was deeply concerned about the events in the Middle East at that time. And I have taken considerable grief for my support for Israel. If you think that not a good thing, well, again, it's a free country.

No; not just you. I would prefer people ignore Israel, since they also ignore parts of the world that are larger, with greater populations and bigger injustices. However, I believe the interest in Israel just serves some people's need to be concerned about what Jews are doing. I do believe it reflects a psychological unconcscious coping mechanism, since they do not convert, unless circumstances may be unique. And, I do believe it is an oftentimes Gentile trait to proselytize something - religion, political beliefs, whatever. That is what might make Jews different, perhaps, or at least marching to the tune of a different drummer. They have no need to proselytize, in my opinion. Many Gentiles do, I believe.

Jewish survival is not just based on avoiding pogroms, or Israel having military prowness, it is based on being able to not be seduced by cultures around them that are enticing. It has to do, perhaps, with a degree of obstinacy that many find strange; obstinacy to their own detriment sometimes. So, one should not tell me about "prudence," unless one is singing a Beatles song.

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An interesting entry which comes to the conclusion that Palestine is not a country. see http://www.google.com/search?q=Was+Palestine+ever+a+recognized+country&rlz=1I7DKUS_en&ie=UTF-8&
Jan 11 2009
There are eight criteria accepted by the international community used to determine whether an entity is an independent country or not.
A country need only fail on one of the eight criteria to not meet the definition of independent country status.

Palestine (and I shall consider either or both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in this analysis) does not meet all eight criteria; it fails significantly on one of the eight criteria...

1. Has space or territory that has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).

Somewhat. Both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have internationally recognized boundaries. However, these boundaries are not legally fixed.

2. Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.

Yes, the Gaza Strip's population is 1,500,202 and the population of the West Bank is 2,407,681 (as of mid-2008).

3. Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money.

Somewhat. The economies of both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are disrupted by conflict, especially in Hamas-controlled Gaza where any fledgling industry or economic activity is not possible. Both entities utilize the new Israeli shekel as their currency.

4. Has the power of social engineering, such as education.

Somewhat. The Palestinian Authority does have social engineering power in fields such as education and health care. Hamas in Gaza also provides social services.

5. Has a transportation system for moving goods and people.

Yes; both entities have roads and other transportation systems.

6. Has a government that provides public services and police or military power.

Somewhat. While the Palestinian Authority is permitted to provide local law enforcement, Palestine does not have its own military. Nonetheless, as can be seen in the latest conflict, Hamas in Gaza does have control of a extensive militia.

7. Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory.

Somewhat. The West Bank and Gaza Strip do not yet have full sovereignty and control over their own territory.

b]8. Has external recognition. A country has been "voted into the club" by other countries.

No. "Palestine" itself does not have external recognition nor does it have its own embassies in other independent countries. It is not possible for Palestine to be an independent member of the United Nations at this time.

Thus, Palestine (nor the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank) is not yet an independent country. The two parts of "Palestine" are entities that, in the eyes of the international community, have yet to develop or, more importantly, have international recognition to be considered a full independent country.

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@Foofie,

Interesting perspective. You see my interest in Israel and Judaism as 'proselyting' while I see it as a feeling of connectedness with a people from which my own faith was born and has evolved and remains inextricably connected. My daughter, working in a a delightful office where all her coworkers were Jewish, once sent us a Happy Hannukah card with her comment: "You could have had at least one Jewish kid." Alas, I am unaware of any branch of the family that can claim Jewish heritage, however, so we're pretty well stuck with being Gentiles.

I do see Israel as unique among nations as it was established as a safe haven for Jews who had suffered unconscionable discrimination, persecution, pograms, and genocide on many different fronts. One of the criticisms of Israel from some members here is that it was established as a haven specifically for Jews and therefore they see it as a 'racist nation'. I strongly disagree with that perception.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that Israel is embedded among nations that hate Israel because it was founded for Jews who practice Judaism and who are on the record that they will annihilate Israel whenever they feel they have license/opportunity to do so. And the fact remains that Israel would not survive even now without the tactical recognition by the U.N., however wishy washy and ineffective that might be, and without the U.S. moral and financial support and pledge of defense from the United States just as the Palestinian leadership and militant groups could not survive without support from pro-Palestinian E.U. groups and anti-Israeli Arab groups.

Those prepared to invest blood and treasure on behalf of Israel should have license to comment on the circumstances, policy, and practices involving their investment. For myself, I have argued long and hard and taken considerable abuse on this thread and elsewhere for Israel to have the right to do what is best for its own people, a right some here would deny it.

So, I accept that it will probably continue to annoy you. Smile

But I'll probably keep right on commenting just the same.

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@genoves,

genoves wrote:

b]8. Has external recognition. A country has been "voted into the club" by other countries.

No. "Palestine" itself does not have external recognition nor does it have its own embassies in other independent countries. It is not possible for Palestine to be an independent member of the United Nations at this time.

Thus, Palestine (nor the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank) is not yet an independent country. The two parts of "Palestine" are entities that, in the eyes of the international community, have yet to develop or, more importantly, have international recognition to be considered a full independent country.

Not that I would contradict your conclusion, but "Palestine" does in fact have some international recognition -- from Costa Rica at least. I don't know if there are others.

I find the whole discussion of whether or not they have ever been an independent state to be completely beside the point. So what? Does that mean they have no right to their lands? It sounds to me like the old colonialism argument -- these people weren't making good use of the land so they have no right to it and it's up to a superior and more civilized group of people to control it.

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@FreeDuck,

That kind of reasoning seems to work for many - Israel apologists. I wonder what "they" would do under similar cirumstances; their property taken away, and fenced off so you can never visit your home again?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I wonder what "they" would do under similar cirumstances; their property taken away, and fenced off so you can never visit your home again?

If possessing a modicum of intelligence, they would arrest those among them who have terrorized Israelis. They would then report to the Israelis that they have done their part. Then they would tell the Israelis to do your part by removing those fences and returning our property. Then we both will henceforth respect each others freedoms, as long as we both respect each other's freedoms.

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@ican711nm,

ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
I wonder what "they" would do under similar cirumstances; their property taken away, and fenced off so you can never visit your home again?

If possessing a modicum of intelligence, they would arrest those among them who have terrorized Israelis. They would then report to the Israelis that they have done their part. Then they would tell the Israelis to do your part by removing those fences and returning our property. Then we both will henceforth respect each others freedoms, as long as we both respect each other's freedoms.

That works for me.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
I wonder what "they" would do under similar cirumstances; their property taken away, and fenced off so you can never visit your home again?

If possessing a modicum of intelligence, they would arrest those among them who have terrorized Israelis. They would then report to the Israelis that they have done their part. Then they would tell the Israelis to do your part by removing those fences and returning our property. Then we both will henceforth respect each others freedoms, as long as we both respect each other's freedoms.

That works for me.

And when the Israelis did nothing, what would you do then? For that is exactly what would happen. Much of the expansion into Pal territory is religiously based and has nothing to do with 'defense;' they don't give a **** if people stop attacking, these settlers intend to continue until the land is theirs, and that's that, b/c God told them to.

What then?

Cycloptichorn

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@Foxfyre,

It works for you, because you don't understand the circumstances under which they live.

Have you ever turned in a criminal in your neighborhood - with guns?

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Interesting perspective. You see my interest in Israel and Judaism as 'proselyting' while I see it as a feeling of connectedness with a people from which my own faith was born and has evolved and remains inextricably connected.

I did not explain well. I do not see you as proselytizing. You have your reasons for your interest in Israel. I was talking about the interest in the thread "in general" may reflect a sublimation of what the Gentile culture (I believe there is one - the one that came from Europe) values. The Gentile culture historically valued proselytizing, either by playing nice like missionaries, or through conquer and absorb into one's culture/society, in my opinion. So, while Jews have shown the world that religious proselytization does not usually work with them under usual circumstances, the desire to "have some hegemony" over Jews, in my opinion, might be part of the sublimated desire that shows itself in the "general" interest in a thread of this nature. In the vernacular, there are always Gentiles that do not want to mind their own business when it comes to those that are not part of their group. Jews historically were the "outsiders" for all Europeans, and I feel that the interest is a sublimated desire to put in one's two cents about what Jews should do, or not do.

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@Foofie,

Perhaps, but when we are involved because a) our government is involved or b) our citizens are involved, I see it as simply normal to have interest in the outcome of a bad situation no matter who it is. So you have threads re Georgia and Russia, or Pakistan and Afghanistan, or the now multiple nations of the former Yugoslavia or China's relationship with Taiwan or the US's relationship with Mexico in our immigration mess, and so forth. I suppose there are those with no intellectual curiosity and no opinions about what goes on all over the world, but that generally does not apply to those drawn to a thread like this or any number of others addressing situations around the world. As I said, I have particular interest in the Middle East conflicts because of my religious convictions and also because I have had so much personal blood and treasure invested there.

My opinion about the best outcome in any of those situations is purely personal as I have no power of any kind to enforce my opinion. But should enough of us express similar opinions to resonate with those who are in power, perhaps it might make a difference. Generally I think it is just those testing their point of view and conclusions against those of others. At least I think that is true of those who actually discuss the topic and not those who spend their time insulting other members and making hateful remarks about this or that group. I do think that all that is holding at bay the Arab hordes who would demolish Israel are those who are emotional patrons, sympathizers, and true friends of Israel. Withdraw that moral support, and there is far less incentive for governments to provide the very material help that Israel must have to survive.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

and I feel that the interest is a sublimated desire to put in one's two cents about what Jews should do, or not do.

Delicately put. I don't like to see murder and theft, committed by Israel, funded by the USA, and supported by apologists on this thread.

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@McTag,

amen!

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About 64 years ago, just before the creation of Israel, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were flattened by our atomic bombs. Since then, we have not heard much about the development of those cities since the bombings.

I just saw a collection of new photos of the cities, and their development was astounding. They are now gleaming metropolises replete with mass transportation, and, in general, great prosperity.

Palestine, on the other hand, remains little better than a slum, virtually unimproved since 1948 when Israel was created. This is despite the billions spent over the years to aid Palestine. The evidence is that the Arab countries wanted to keep Palestine depressed so as to have the world pressure Israel to make concessions to it.

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@Advocate,

Correction.

I believe they have kept Palestine a slum to inspire sympathy from the gullible and encourage withdrawal of support from Israel so that they can destroy Israel. And I would make a substantial bet that should that happen, the world--certainly the Arab nations--won't give a damn about the Palestinians and will leave them to their own devices to survive. They didn't give a damn for the Palestinians before they had opportunity to use world sympathy for the Palestinians as a wedge to undermine and weaken Israel.

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As the developing tensions beween Israel and the Obama Administration increase, it will be interesting to see how all that shakes out.

Quote:

June 9, 2009 7:34 PM
Some Israelis Insulted By Obama Picture
by Hoard Arenstein

Israeli TV newscasters Tuesday night interpreted a photo taken Monday in the Oval Office of President Obama talking on the phone with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as an "insult" to Israel.

They saw the incident as somewhat akin to an incident last year, when the Iraqi reporter threw a shoe at President Bush in Baghdad.

It is considered an insult in the Arab world to show the sole of your shoe to someone. It is not a Jewish custom necessarily, but Israel feels enough a part of the Middle East after 60 years to be insulted too.

Was there a subliminal message intended from the White House to Netanyahu in Jerusalem, who is publicly resisting attempts by Mr. Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to force Israel to stop any kind of settlement activity in occupied territories once and forever?

Whether or not it is true, it shows the mood in Israel. They feel cornered. The reactions out of Israel reflect that feeling.

Netanyahu is making a speech Sunday, in part as a response to Mr. Obama's address to the Arab world last week in Cairo.

Israel's Channel One TV reported that Netanyahu was told Tuesday by an "American official" in Jerusalem that, "We are going to change the world. Please, don't interfere." The report said Netanyahu's aides interpreted this as a "threat."

Netanyahu met with George Mitchell today for four hours in Jerusalem. The State Department announced this afternoon that Mitchell will be stopping in Beirut and Damascus when he finishes his visits to Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/09/world/worldwatch/entry5076128.shtml

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