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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 04:47 pm
@dyslexia,
Quote:
New Mexico was never an actual country (Texas was) Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire.


And where has anyone ever asserted that New Mexico ever was a country?
And is there anyone in New Mexico demanding that it become an independent country?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 04:50 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
New Mexico was never an actual country (Texas was) Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire.


And where has anyone ever asserted that New Mexico ever was a country?
And is there anyone in New Mexico demanding that it become an independent country?


More importantly is it lobbing rockets into Mexico with the intent of driving out the populations there and taking that over? And for that matter parts of New Mexico have also been Texas at one point as well as France, Spain, and Mexico. But, like the Palestinians, the indigenous peoples of New Mexico nor those who immigrated there ever attempted to organize themselves into their own country.
georgeob1
 
  4  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 05:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

More importantly is it lobbing rockets into Mexico with the intent of driving out the populations there and taking that over? And for that matter parts of New Mexico have also been Texas at one point as well as France, Spain, and Mexico. But, like the Palestinians, the indigenous peoples of New Mexico nor those who immigrated there ever attempted to organize themselves into their own country.


The analogy, by now is a bit over stretched. However you are dead wrong with respect to the history of the Palestinians. They were allied with the British in 1917 during a revolution to overthrow the Ottomans. They were acting under the (deceitful as it turned out) promise of the British to provide them autonomy under the then Hashemite rulers of Mecca and Medina after the war. In fact the British had already (1) conspired with the French to divide the spoils of the Offoman Empire among themselves, with the British keeping Palestine; and (2) promised the Zionists of Europe a "Homeland for Jews" in Palestine - neither of which was compatable with the promises they had made to their Arab allies.

The Palestinians had shown fairly remarkable tenacity and desire for self rule during the Crusades. After the fall of the Cruusader Kingdom there the region fell under the rule of the Ottomans who governed it as a distinct province with a degree of local autonomy. Palestine has a long history as a "country" in the same sense as do Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq.

The claim that Palestine has no national legitamacy is merely a Zionist lie intended to distract observers from the fact that - at least for the past two thousand years - Israel has none.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 05:55 pm
@georgeob1,
Palestine was a region of the Ottomon Empire for hundreds of years and I believe the region was not recognized as a sovereign nation at any time during those hundreds of years. I don't think you can support from History any time since the Jews lost control of the area that there has been an independent government of Palestine. I don't think you can make a credible case that it was a 'country' any more than New Mexico is a country.

Even the radical leftwing SourceWatch, 100% pro-Palestinian and pretty much 100% anti-Israel doesn't dispute that:

Quote:
1.) When was it founded and by whom?: British Mandate Palestine was created by the League of Nations in 1922 and governorship was mandated to Great Britain. Prior to that Palestine was a part of the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years. After its defeat by the Allies in World War I, the Ottoman Empire was carved up by the Allies into what is now the modern Middle East. The borders of the current nation states in the Middle East were determined after WWI by aBritish and French agreement (the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement). . . .

. . . .8.) Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation? The region of Palestine was promised to both the Arabs and the Jews by the British. The region of Palestine was promised by the British to the Zionists who wanted to establish a Jewish homeland there. The formal British agreement to permit Zionist colonization came in the form of a letter known as the Balfour Declaration on November 2, 1917, which supported creating a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine with the following condition, "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." ). . . .
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Palestine
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 06:04 pm
An interesting entry which comes to the conclusion that Palestine is not a country. see http://www.google.com/search?q=Was+Palestine+ever+a+recognized+country&rlz=1I7DKUS_en&ie=UTF-8&
Jan 11 2009
There are eight criteria accepted by the international community used to determine whether an entity is an independent country or not.
A country need only fail on one of the eight criteria to not meet the definition of independent country status.

Palestine (and I shall consider either or both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in this analysis) does not meet all eight criteria; it fails significantly on one of the eight criteria...

1. Has space or territory that has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).

Somewhat. Both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have internationally recognized boundaries. However, these boundaries are not legally fixed.

2. Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.

Yes, the Gaza Strip's population is 1,500,202 and the population of the West Bank is 2,407,681 (as of mid-2008).

3. Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money.

Somewhat. The economies of both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are disrupted by conflict, especially in Hamas-controlled Gaza where any fledgling industry or economic activity is not possible. Both entities utilize the new Israeli shekel as their currency.

4. Has the power of social engineering, such as education.

Somewhat. The Palestinian Authority does have social engineering power in fields such as education and health care. Hamas in Gaza also provides social services.

5. Has a transportation system for moving goods and people.

Yes; both entities have roads and other transportation systems.

6. Has a government that provides public services and police or military power.

Somewhat. While the Palestinian Authority is permitted to provide local law enforcement, Palestine does not have its own military. Nonetheless, as can be seen in the latest conflict, Hamas in Gaza does have control of a extensive militia.

7. Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory.

Somewhat. The West Bank and Gaza Strip do not yet have full sovereignty and control over their own territory.

b]8. Has external recognition. A country has been "voted into the club" by other countries.

No. "Palestine" itself does not have external recognition nor does it have its own embassies in other independent countries. It is not possible for Palestine to be an independent member of the United Nations at this time.

Thus, Palestine (nor the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank) is not yet an independent country. The two parts of "Palestine" are entities that, in the eyes of the international community, have yet to develop or, more importantly, have international recognition to be considered a full independent country.


0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 06:10 pm
Was Cicerone Imposter ever in a mental institution?

Yes, when he was four years old, he was taken from the concentration camp in California for treatment. His condition was diagnosed as microcephaly--commonly known as being a "pinhead".
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 08:16 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

So we are stuck with the situation we have now. But it is very darn difficult to be intellectually honest and put all the blame for that on the Israelis as some on this thread consistently attempt to do.


Your choice of words, "we are stuck" might reflect the basic problem in this thread. The Israelis and Palestineans are stuck, if anyone is stuck. You are an American, an therefore not stuck with any foreign situation.

It is a problem for Israelis and Palestineans. The fact that other countries want to resolve the adversarial situation might reflect to a greater degree the concern about what Jews are doing. I am not sure how much concern of the world really reflects Judeophobia, since when Moslems in other countries are dealt with harshly, no one then seems to care? And, the Predator drone missiles are not exactly making nice to Pakistanis. Strange how the world gets upset when Israel tries to deal with its own problems only. Is Israel in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 08:26 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

The claim that Palestine has no national legitamacy is merely a Zionist lie intended to distract observers from the fact that - at least for the past two thousand years - Israel has none.



Hibernia only was inhabited by the Celts when the Romans pushed them into Hibernia. Before that they ruled western Europe for a few hundred years. Perhaps, the British had an ethical right to occupy Ireland, inasmuch as the Celts were from elsewhere also? And, did the Celts set up a nation state, or just a bunch of Clans that did not always get along with each other?

The Palestineans therefore might be analogous to Moslem Celts? The solution is to ship the Palestineans to the U.S. where they might make good policemen and firemen?

Israel may have a legitimate claim to NYC, since Jews have been there since the time of the Dutch, and were germane to the real estate market in NYC evolving to what it is today. Fair trade - Israel for NYC?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 09:34 pm
@Foofie,
We are 'stuck' because nobody seems to be able to figure a way out of the dilemma but many of us Americans are committed and tied to the problem. I have an emotional stake in Israel because of my religious beliefs. I have a financial state in Israel because some of my taxes are subsidizing it, a condition I am not complaining about, and, frankly, Israel would not otherwise be able to survive. And I have an intellectual interest in Israel as a necessity for a group of people who have been persecuted and/or discriminated against just about everywhere they've ever been and deserve a place where they don't have to endure that. And I have a decades-long fascination with the 4000+ year old culture and history.

I admit not having the same emotional involvement with other conflicts in the world, but to say that I don't care about injustice or unnecessary harm or deaths or unnecessary conflict anywhere would be incorrect. I am also intensely aware that there are evil people in the world who intend good to nobody and harm to many. And I think good people cannot just look away and pretend that isn't so.

I certainly get little applause and take a lot of grief for my defense of Israel on this thread and occasionally elsewhere. But I think Israel should not snub or dismiss those who are its friends. It needs all it can get. If the world leaves it to the Palestinians and the Israelis to work out their differences, Israel is non existent within the week because without support, Israel cannot withstand the much larger and stronger Arab population who wants Israel dead.



Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 09:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The Pals left Israel at the urging of the invading armies so as to help them. They should have stayed and fought for their country. That makes them traitors to their country.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 01:16 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

McTag wrote:
You are interested to maintain intellectual honesty in the argument, you say.
So would it interest you to know that when Israelis occupy an arab village, one of the first things they do is to destroy all written records of the settlement's history- marriages, deaths, births, deeds to property, that kind of thing.

Why do they do that, do you think?


foxfire wrote:
Why do you think they do that? What is your authority to say that they do that?


But they do. And you can find out these things too. Unpalatable facts have to be considered along with the rest, to get a balanced picture.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 07:23 am
@McTag,
I accept that you think they do. But I have not seen it from any credible source. So again I ask you why you think they do that and what your authority is for accusing them of that.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 10:05 am
@Advocate,
If you have nothing to fight with, that would be the most logical outcome.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  4  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 10:35 am
@Foxfyre,

I have read eyewitness accounts by European journalists. (that is, non-israeli and non-palestinian investigative journalists).

I quite believe you "have not seen it from any credible source", and I suspect that is because because you do not read from any sources which might report that kind of thing.
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 10:49 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

The Pals left Israel at the urging of the invading armies so as to help them. They should have stayed and fought for their country. That makes them traitors to their country.


But they had and have no country -- you have said this yourself many times.

Clearly in your eyes they are vermin - more or less like the Jews of Europe, according to the equally hateful doctrine of the Nazis.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 11:49 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


I have read eyewitness accounts by European journalists. (that is, non-israeli and non-palestinian investigative journalists).

I quite believe you "have not seen it from any credible source", and I suspect that is because because you do not read from any sources which might report that kind of thing.


But wouldn't you think it would be included in some of the histories which I have read from perspectives of both camps? Wouldn't you think those 'European journalists' would have left some evidence that could be Googled up somewhere? Wouldn't you think of all the plethora of anti-Israeli sentiment found almost everywhere on the Internet it would come up quickly and frequently in a search and used continuously by those who support the Palestinians and not Israel? Would you believe it if journalists had said such of the Palestinians but left no traceable evidence of their accusations? Do you believe whatever 'eye witness' accounts are cited by journalists?

Do you believe it because it is said of the Jews?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 12:14 pm
@Foxfyre,
You're not trying hard enough!
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 02:06 pm
@Foxfyre,

Quote:
Do you believe it because it is said of the Jews?


Do you disbelieve it because it is said of the Israelis?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 02:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
A short search turned this up:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/world/mideast-turmoil-ramallah-palestinians-say-israeli-aim-was-destroy-framework.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Organizations/P/Palestinian%20Authority

then this:

http://stuc.siteiscentral.com/news/55/israelis-are-planning-to-destroy-palestine

this is good, too

http://www.concert4palestine.org/voices/index.html
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 02:45 pm
@McTag,
All Foxie had to do was type <israeli destruction of palestinian records> on to Google, and she would have gotten over 2.8 million hits.

DUH!
 

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