ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

@McTag,

Ridiculous--McTag and you know it.

You are guilty of a basic logical error. You can find NOTHING in Foofie's statement which says that Because of the Holocaust, A N Y and A L L actions of the state of Israel should be condoned and supported.

1 Reply

@genoves,

Foofie said this: as a result of the Holocaust, "They should literally get on the bandwagon of Zionism and teach philo-Semitism to the world"

In other words, Zionism should be promoted as an outcome.

Split the hairs as you will. I think the natural goodwill has long since been squandered, and we must now call Israel's actions by what they are.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Continually admonish, in a public forum (U.N., DW tv, etc.), those that cannot understand the need for Israel's continued existence as a Jewish State. Admit that as the country that many, in the 19th century, thought of as the zenith of culture and scientific progress, quickly devolved into the ancient ways of slave labor, and genocide. If it could happen to the cultured nation of 19th century Germany, it can happen to other nations, for sure. They should literally get on the bandwagon of Zionism and teach philo-Semitism to the world. Not as a penance, but as a realization that the Jewish culture has produced individuals that have given the world innovations that the world has benefitted from (I am not including the A-Bomb).

OK , but what then is to prevent the occurrence of an analogous turn in another state, similarly imbued with culture and scientific progress, into "the ancient ways of slave labor and genocide"?? For example could it happen to Israel itself?? There is considerable evidence that suggests that this has already happened to some degree.

How can renewed tribalism be a remedy for the evils of past tribalism?

I would be willing to concede special status to the Jews of this world immediately after the unique superiority of Irishmen is duly recognized and sanctified. It is entirely conceivable that others, even Greeks and Italians, might put forward similar claims.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

How can renewed tribalism be a remedy for the evils of past tribalism?

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@McTag,

McTag wrote:

Foofie said this: as a result of the Holocaust, "They should literally get on the bandwagon of Zionism and teach philo-Semitism to the world"

In other words, Zionism should be promoted as an outcome.

Split the hairs as you will. I think the natural goodwill has long since been squandered, and we must now call Israel's actions by what they are.

Israel is not responsible for a gang of hateful Arabs that are their neighbors. Even prior to the establishment of the State of Israel the Arabs rioted against Jews. They just do not want a "Jewish footprint" there. When rioting didn't work in the earlier part of the 20th century, armies were amassed against the new state. Now that the armies lost several wars, gangs of terrorists continue.

Personally, I do not see Israel acquiescing to the criticisms of western nations, since they have had a learning curve of being the recipients of blind hate for two-thousand plus years from one of the two groups of co-monotheists.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

OK , but what then is to prevent the occurrence of an analogous turn in another state, similarly imbued with culture and scientific progress, into "the ancient ways of slave labor and genocide"?? For example could it happen to Israel itself?? There is considerable evidence that suggests that this has already happened to some degree.

How can renewed tribalism be a remedy for the evils of past tribalism?

I would be willing to concede special status to the Jews of this world immediately after the unique superiority of Irishmen is duly recognized and sanctified. It is entirely conceivable that others, even Greeks and Italians, might put forward similar claims.

Israel uses slave labor? Israel has crematoriums? Please!

You do not accept tribalism? Jewish with a small "j" does not mean "universal," as does Catholic with a small "c." The entire world cannot be Catholic, in effect, in my opinion, thinking of all of humanity as one big flock.

I do admit that Irishmen have made superior policeman and fireman in NYC, back in the day. They also ran the subways very well, back in the day. But, let us admit that one's talents are usually not in all venues. So, other than a pub or two, Irishmen are not thought of as entrepreneurs. They do know how to pander to WASP's though, in my own observations. Similarly, Jews may have unique talents that do not include running a police department well, or to be firemen. Each to his own. And, as long as one is comparing Jews to Irish, let us also compare Irish to Italians, and we see that the Italians have produced many figures in history that the Irish, nor Jews, can compare with.

However, this is not the argument, as to who might have superior traits to whom, but rather can Jews live in peace in Israel, as Italians live in peace in Italy, or Irish live in peace in Ireland. I believe the above post was off target, as to what the thread should focus on. However, I understand that those that criticize Israel might then come to the conclusion that Jews do not deserve a homeland, because they have not treated their adversarial neighbors with the same concern that a Jewish Park Avenue psychiatrist would treat his/her patients. Please!

Being Jewish, my pro-Zionist feelings often include the emotional feeling that while I live my life as an American citizen, I do think there are Jews that would prefer to literally snub the Gentile world, by living in a Jewish country. In effect, for the historical reality of Jew baiting, banishing from a Christian kingdom, or other assorted anti-Jewish activities, I like the idea that the Gentile nations can not have all the Jews to be resources for their respective countries.

Regarding tribalism - why I do think some people do not have a tolerance, for its ambiguity, to their respective world view, is that there is nothing wrong with tribalism, if it reflects a peaceful tribe. I do not understand where this belief that all tribalism is bad comes from? Does it reflect religious teaching? Does it reflect a political concept? I believe it is based on the false premise that tribalism is a priori bad. I cannot accept that premise, since it is like saying all religions are successful cults, and since cults can be thought of as bad, then all religions are bad. And, note that the countries that surround Israel are just as tribal, if not more so, than Israel.

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@McTag,

McTag wrote:

This is getting close to stating what you seem to believe: that because of the fact of the Holocaust, all and any actions of the State of Israel should be condoned and supported.

I do not believe that is the belief in Israel. They would like to live life in peace. Just like Londoners wanted to live in peace while V-2's were exploding every evening in London in WWII. Perhaps, you should realize that the smaller rockets launched from Gaza into Sderot elicit the same terror that the V-2's elicited from Londoners.

Personally, there does not seem to be a simple, elegant solution, since a two-state solution just allows a Palestinean state to invite a proxy army into its state to be used as a launching pad for war against Israel. You see, hatred of the Jewish State is no more curable than the hatred towards Jews for those on trial at Nuremburg, I believe. Oddly, anti-Semitism sometimes shows itself as an intractable mental state. I guess it shows the power of social conditioning.

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@georgeob1,

How about the Japanese (of Japan)? LOL They never did much half-ass - if you get my drift.

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Foofie wrote:
quote
I do not believe that is the belief in Israel. They would like to live life in peace. Just like Londoners wanted to live in peace while V-2's were exploding every evening in London in WWII. Perhaps, you should realize that the smaller rockets launched from Gaza into Sderot elicit the same terror that the V-2's elicited from Londoners.
end of quote

McTag should read the History of the attacks by the Nazis on London. The British were very brave but the fear of being struck down by a V-2 was palpable.

I don't think that McTag has read the threats against Israel.

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I am certain that McTag either does not remember or does not know that the scumbags in Iran held American Hostages for 444 days.

Note:

=Iran hostage crisis
Iran hostage crisis, in U.S. history, events following the seizure of the American embassy in Tehran by Iranian students on Nov. 4, 1979. The overthrow of Muhammad Reza Shah Pahlevi of Iran by an Islamic revolutionary government earlier in the year had led to a steady deterioration in Iran-U.S. relations. In response to the exiled shah's admission (Sept., 1979) to the United States for medical treatment, a crowd of about 500 seized the embassy. Of the approximately 90 people inside the embassy, 52 remained in captivity until the end of the crisis.

President Carter applied economic pressure by halting oil imports from Iran and freezing Iranian assets in the United States. At the same time, he began several diplomatic initiatives to free the hostages, all of which proved fruitless. On Apr. 24, 1980, the United States attempted a rescue mission that failed. After three of eight helicopters were damaged in a sandstorm, the operation was aborted; eight persons were killed during the evacuation. Secretary of State Cyrus Vance, who had opposed the action, resigned after the mission's failure.

In 1980, the death of the shah in Egypt and the invasion of Iran by Iraq (see Iran-Iraq War) made the Iranians more receptive to resolving the hostage crisis. In the United States, failure to resolve the crisis contributed to Ronald Reagan's defeat of Carter in the presidential election. After the election, with the assistance of Algerian intermediaries, successful negotiations began. On Jan. 20, 1981, the day of President Reagan's inauguration, the United States released almost $8 billion in Iranian assets and the hostages were freed after 444 days in Iranian detention; the agreement gave Iran immunity from lawsuits arising from the incident.

In 2000 former hostages and their survivors sued Iran under the 1996 Antiterrorism Act, which permits U.S. citizens to sue foreign governments in cases of state-sponsored terrorism. The following year they won the lawsuit by default when Iran did not offer a defense. The U.S. State Dept. sought dismissal of the suit, arguing it would hinder its ability to negotiate international agreements, and a federal judge dismissed the plaintiffs' suit for damages in 2002, ruling that the agreement that resulted in their release barred awarding any damages.

See G. Sick, All Fall Down (1985)

*****************************************************************

I would not be sorry if the Israelis decided to take out the Iranian Nuclear Centers. This would be a just response to the suffering of our citizens for 444 days.

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@genoves,

Quote:

I am certain that McTag either does not remember or does not know that the scumbags in Iran held American Hostages for 444 days

Guantanamo Bay, and Abu Ghraib, will persist in the collective memory a whole lot longer than that, I fear.

1 Reply

@genoves,

Quote:

I am certain that McTag either does not remember or does not know that the scumbags in Iran held American Hostages for 444 days.

I know that the West destabilised Iran for 100 years, and many Iranians are not well-disposed towards us because of that fact.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

However, this is not the argument, as to who might have superior traits to whom, but rather can Jews live in peace in Israel, as Italians live in peace in Italy, or Irish live in peace in Ireland. I believe the above post was off target, as to what the thread should focus on. However, I understand that those that criticize Israel might then come to the conclusion that Jews do not deserve a homeland, because they have not treated their adversarial neighbors with the same concern that a Jewish Park Avenue psychiatrist would treat his/her patients. Please!

Being Jewish, my pro-Zionist feelings often include the emotional feeling that while I live my life as an American citizen, I do think there are Jews that would prefer to literally snub the Gentile world, by living in a Jewish country. In effect, for the historical reality of Jew baiting, banishing from a Christian kingdom, or other assorted anti-Jewish activities, I like the idea that the Gentile nations can not have all the Jews to be resources for their respective countries.

Both the Irish and the Italians do indeed enjoy homelands where they can be Irish & Italian, as you say. However neither is immune to the forces of immigration and the movement of peoples, or indeed to other external & internal forces that create cultural ghange and evolution. Neither would get very far with laws or national policies that affirmed or made a firm goal of the preservation of a particular view of Irishness or Italianness as a permanent national policy --- as Israel most certainly does.

Your frequently expressed ideas about the uniqueness of Jews and their special distinction from others would would get you only derisive laughter or outright hostility if you did not accompany them with your typical overtones of bemused irony. However the frequent repitition if them does indeed change the character of the impression you leave.

Jews in Israel, just as their present and now exiled former Palestinian neighbors, both live (or have lived) in a changing and fluid world that continually threatens any preconceived notions about the character of the state or world in which they live. That, more or less, is the fate of humans everywhere. Some are more and some less successful in achieving an enduring dominance of their particular preconceptions, but time and the continuing evolution of live makes fools of them all in the end.

I don't deny Zionists the chance to achieve their ends. I just don't accept that they have the right to demand that I or others aid or support them in the effort. The simple fact is that Israel's continued existence with the exclusionist policies that have heretofore dominated this unique state has been and continues to be possible only with the increasingly costly (to us) protection of the United States and occasionally the assent and protection of a still guilt-ridden Europe. If we were to withdraw our protection, Israel's worldview and situation would instantly change. This aspect of the issue is fast becoming more prominent and evident in the continuing public debate.

Finally, let me note that not all Jews or Israelis are Nobel prize winners. The notable achievements of Jewish intellectuals and humanists do not themselves rationalize the behavior of other Jews and Zionists who are merely greedy, intolerant thugs. Albert Einstein was not a meaningful cover for the antics of the now also deceased Meyer Kahane. Both types exist among Jews as they do among all others as well.

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@Foofie,

You are always good value, Foofie, I'll give you that.

I did not know Jews were not suited to run a police department.

Tell us more about Robert Maxwell, Conrad Black, Bernie Madoff- successful entrepreneurs all.

1 Reply

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

Quote:
I am certain that McTag either does not remember or does not know that the scumbags in Iran held American Hostages for 444 days

Guantanamo Bay, and Abu Ghraib, will persist in the collective memory a whole lot longer than that, I fear.

Silly thought, I believe. I do not care about collective memories; I care about the memories of Americans.

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@McTag,

McTag wrote:

You are always good value, Foofie, I'll give you that.

I did not know Jews were not suited to run a police department.

Tell us more about Robert Maxwell, Conrad Black, Bernie Madoff- successful entrepreneurs all.

No; you tell me.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Quote:

Both the Irish and the Italians do indeed enjoy homelands where they can be Irish & Italian, as you say. However neither is immune to the forces of immigration and the movement of peoples, or indeed to other external & internal forces that create cultural ghange and evolution.

But the Italians are not criticized nor condemned for exploiting and using their Italian heritage and culture to their best advantage, or for identifying Italy as an "Italian" homeland. Nor would they likely be criticized or condemned for resisting change to something that doesn't resemble Italian culture even though immigration was causing changes.

The Irish are not criticized nor condemned for exploiting and using their Irish heritage and culture to their best advantage, or for identifying Ireland as an "Irish' homeland. Nor would they likely be criticized or condemned for resisting change to something that doesn't resemble Irish culture even though immigration was causing changes.

Yet somehow the Jews are evil or wrong or can be criticized for wanting a Jewish homeland?

Further the Irish and Italians long ago put down rebellions and forces from the outside who would make them something other than Irish or Italian. The Israeli Jews continue to be under a continued threat by forces who wish them wiped off the face of the Earth.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Your frequently expressed ideas about the uniqueness of Jews and their special distinction from others would would get you only derisive laughter or outright hostility if you did not accompany them with your typical overtones of bemused irony. However the frequent repitition if them does indeed change the character of the impression you leave.

You may be misconstruing my thoughts. I only say their culture is unique in some ways. I also say their length of persecution is unique. I also say they deserve not to have to put up with non-Jews, just like most non-Jews, of lesser qualifications, have their own country to just be themselves, with no need to assimilate into another culture.

I am sorry if you are not happy about the support the U.S. continues to give Israel. But, the system allows that. You should convince those voting Gentiles, that might be Christian Zionists, the supposedly error of their ways. Telling me is talking to a deaf ear. Even though I have a tough skin, so I care less who appreciates me in this country, I would like to think that those Jews that prefer to live in a Jewish country can do that. Even if there was peace there. I just empathize with those Jews that would like to not live in a Gentile society with its different ways/social mores/holidays/penchant for drink/unique prejudices, etc., etc. If you have not noticed (but you have), the dominant culture in the U.S., for mainstream white folk, still reflects a northern European origin. U.S. Jews are basically a Mediterranean people that wound up in a more northern part of Europe perhaps, before ancestors came here. That may be why Jews and Italians tend to get along, while Jews and Irish tend to stay separate in the old urban ethnic neighborhoods. It is a matter of different cultures, I believe.

I really have nothing more to say.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Quote:

"...have to put up with non-Jews..."

What a freight load horse ****!

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

By the way, since you are concerned about tribalism, I am a Levite. Oddly, I never was a money changer in any temples?

But, in my mind, when folks came to the U.S., with all its diversity, clannishness became the new tribalism, in my opinion. And, we know how often ethnic, or religious groups (including my own) have been branded with the moniker "clannish" as an adjective before their group title (Jew, Catholic, Italian, Irish, etc., etc.)

So, being concerned about tribalism in the Middle East, when Moslems are killing each other, based on different sects of Islam, is an odd concern, I believe.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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