ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Meanwhile, in addition to being a public relations catastrophe everywhere but the White House, the war is strengthening Hezbollah politically, as was predictable. The Lebanese prime minister, who the LAT notes has been no friend of Hezbollah's in the past, "'thanked' the Islamic militant group for its 'sacrifices'" and said: "We scream out to the world community to stand united in the face of Israel's war criminals."

The thing is, however horrific, it's not going to change many people's minds. It's my experience that precious few people are actually interested in examining events related to Israel with an eye toward making an honest judgment. I found myself oddly depressed after dropping by synagogue on Saturday morning when a woman stood to ask the rabbi what she could say to her teenage daughter, who was watching the carnage on TV and could not understand how the mass killing of innocents could be justified. The Rabbi answered with nothing but bluster and bul**hit. Refusing to even engage the question, he trolled for applause from the congregation with chauvinistic argument that because the world had treated the Jews so badly for so many years, Israel should not be criticized no matter what it did. He even used the word "disproportionate" to refer to Palestinian attacks on Jews, when everyone knows that Israel has killed many, many more Palestinians than vice-versa since the conflict began. [*] It was the same old lugubrious interpretation of Jewish history that connects Pope Pius with Adolf Hitler with Hezbollah. The idea that the Israeli government might actually be mistaken in its judgments or that American Jews had the right to think for themselves, or that this (absent) young woman might actually have the right to ask a tough moral question about the behavior of the Jewish state was effectively ruled out of order. Many in the audience applauded. Another woman complained that "even Fox's" coverage was unfair to Israel. A third blamed Hezbollah for putting its weapons in civilian areas. Nobody offered an ounce of evidence and none was demanded. It made me so angry I couldn't even stay for the free food afterward. And remember, this took place in one of the most progressive areas in America. If Jews like this will never question Israeli behavior?-even in a supportive manner that draws on mainstream opinion in Israel?-then you can pretty much forget about it.

But people who oppose the invasion, save for a small minority, are not all that interested in evidence either as far as I can tell. MJ Rosenberg writes about the phenomenon here. The thing for me, however, is that nobody on the pro-Palestinian side of the equation understands the essential realist fact of this problem. There is never going to be any genuine statehood, or dignity, or peace or prosperity or even the opportunity to earn a decent living for the Palestinians unless they convince the Israeli public that they want to live alongside Israel in peace. There is no military option for the Palestinians save suicide. There is no possibility that the United States will ever "force" Israel to make peace. In the first place, I don't know how you'd do it. In the second place, the Israel lobby is too powerful to let it happen and unwilling to challenge Israeli political leadership (except to undermine peace, as it did under Barak). That's why anybody who does not attend to this essential fact is not doing the Palestinians any favors. And as long as the Palestinians have their present dysfunctional leadership crisis, as evidenced by their election of Hamas, no Israeli government can even imagine negotiating a peace agreement. That's just commonsensical.

So therefore I don't think the advertisement that appears in today's Times signed by a bunch of pro-peace Jews is all that useful, since it does not address the inability of any Israeli government to make peace with these Hamas fanatics and corrupt Fatah-ists, particularly when they cannot make peace with themselves. And though I would have liked to?-because I found their previous intervention so useful, I could not bring myself to sign this version of the "Open Letter from American Jews." In the first place, referring to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon as a "crime" is going to shut down most conversations with most supporters of Israel, however much they may also value peace and justice. In the second, whereas I agree that "Israel's ongoing occupation of Palestinian territories and massive human rights abuses against the Palestinian and Lebanese peoples are opposed by many Jews in Israel, the U.S., and throughout the world," and that "attacks on civilians will not bring peace, security or justice to Palestinians, Israelis, or Jews anywhere," every honest person must admit that these statements constitute at best, only half the story. The other, crucial half is that the Palestinians have given the Israeli public no indication at all that they are ready to live side by side with Israel. And if you ignore that, you're ignoring the crux of the problem.

So the Pope, the Secretary General of the United Nations, governments around the world, and people everywhere have no right to speak out because they constitute "World Opinion" and Prager has defined that as being weak vacillating and of course morally wrong.

Morally wrong to speak out their opinions? I don't think it's morally wrong to speak one's opinions. I think some opinions are based on immoral premises that are not intended by the one expressing the opinion. Are you as enamored of all opinions expressed by the Pope and Secretary General of the United Nations or just on matters regarding Israel?

What other rubbish does he come out with?

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Israel's unintentional killing of a few hundred Lebanese civilians

Unintentional? Sick. Israel launches the missiles and the bombs. Let the smart weapons decide. At Beziers the Crusaders were told by the Pope's representative "Kill them all. God will know his own". Now they send weapons of destruction. "Kill them all. The JBU26 will know civilians".

Do you really believe the relatively low number of civilians would have been killed in Lebanon is Israel was targeting civilians? Are you so naive to think Israel's firepower could not have leveled any one of those villages and everybody in them? And where is your moral outrage at the hundred and hundreds of Hezbollah rockets fired indiscriminately at Israeli citizens? I frankly am seeing no moral outrage whatsoever from your side on that. Your part of world opinion frankly seems very anti-Israel and even pro-Hezbollah at first blush. You can see why a country under fire is wise to ignore that kind of world opinion.


"A few hundred". And they were Lebanese anyway. Why thats not really killing at all is it? Just a handful of hundreds of sub humans, thats ok.

See previous statement. It is the fact that Israel has not targeted civilians but has rather targeted rocket launchers the terrorists intentionally place among the civilians that testifies both to Israel's accuracy and compassion for those civilians If Israel didn't care about those civilians there would be thousands dead by now. And there is no compassion for Israeli civilians killed and wounded who were nowhere near a military target? Yep 'world opinion' is sure even handed and impressive there alright.

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It is difficult to overstate the damage done to the world by television news.

And difficult to over estimate the mental decreptitude of someone making that statement.

I wonder if you, Revel, and the other anti-Israel folks on the thread would have a different outlook if the media had been angry at Hezbollah and had been printing condemnation of them day after day and had been showing the pictures of the destroyed rocket launchers nested in civilian neighborhoos etc?

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Jews don't burn down their critics' offices, issue fatwas or send death threats, let alone act on such threats.

I really wish this were true.

Can you cite any cases where Jews have fire boming offices of their critics, issued fatwas, or sent anybody a death threat? And let's deal with modern times, say the last 25 years or so, rather than dig into ancient history for our examples please. As I posted in a response to George several pages back, we cannot assign present day morality to what people once were. When it comes to right and wrong in national policy, it is the here and now that counts; not what once was.

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It is when "world opinion" and its news media start liking you that you should wonder if you've lost your way.

Prager's flaccid propaganda cannot mask the aggression being perpetrated in the name of oil and Israel.

I think any country at risk as much as Israel is would be absolutely insane to listen to the like of a Kofi Annan given his track record of ineffectiveness, impotence, and lack of resolve and his unveiled tolerance for terrorists and terrorist organizations. When you're the one being shot at again and again, I would think it would give you a different perspective on the situation.

Foxfyre wrote:

I think any country at risk as much as Israel is would be absolutely insane to listen to the like of a Kofi Annan given his track record of ineffectiveness, impotence, and lack of resolve and his unveiled tolerance for terrorists and terrorist organizations. When you're the one being shot at again and again, I would think it would give you a different perspective on the situation.

Since Steve referred to the "world opnion", which inlcudes beside the UN Secreatry General, the Pope and most other governments of the world besides the USA, the UK and Israel - does your judgement about Annan - "record of ineffectiveness, impotence, and lack of resolve and his unveiled tolerance for terrorists and terrorist organizations" - all the others who form a "world opinion" as well?

Wrong-doing doesn't justy wrong-doing.

But - following the news - you can stay calm: it will go for two more weeks, at least.

It would stop this minute if 'world opinon', especially the Arab part of it, condemned Hezbollah for its actions. I am very sure Israel will stand down the minute Hezbollah calls it quits.

Loving thy neighbor

By Adina Saperstein

As Jews who support Israel's existence and right to defend itself, it is time to think beyond debating the tactics employed in the past few weeks of conflict and to turn our attention to the prospects for restoring stability in Lebanon and the region. As vast sums of money are being raised by Jewish communities to help Israelis who have been displaced, injured or lost relatives to attacks by Hezbollah, as Jews, we also need to think both strategically and morally when addressing the humanitarian crisis resulting from the current invasion of Lebanon...

It takes forethought to end a war

By Nehemia Shtrasler

There was one moment during the war when we had the upper hand. It was the moment when Israel had succeeded in striking Hezbollah with strong and surprising force, Haifa was peaceful and the number of casualties was small. That was the right moment to stop the war, declare victory and move on to the diplomatic track.

This opportunity came when the G-8 convened on July 14, two days after the fighting broke out. The G-8 formulated a four-point plan, and nothing could have been better for Israel. According to that plan, the three Israeli soldiers abducted to Gaza and Lebanon would be return unharmed, the Katyusha fire against Israel would stop, Israel would halt its military operations and pull back its forces, and it would also release the Hamas ministers and parliament members...

I suppose we ought to note as well that while Israel did not fully observe the truce yesterday, Hezbollah sent no rockets into Israel.