15
   

ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:33 pm
Well, F4F, the Washington Post has been one of the harshest critics of the War in Iraq, the current administration, and anything conservative. I haven't seen that information, but if THEY said there was absolute proof of WMD in Iraq, you can take that to the bank as the gospel truth. Smile

As far as your other comments, I don't know who is feeding you this stuff, but you need to find a much MUCH better source of information.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:41 pm
imemc

Quote:
It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory [this is disputed - most reports show that the initial attack by Lebanese fighters on Israeli soldiers was actually inside Lebanese territory].


Atimes

Quote:
To them, it is legitimate self-defense. They back this argument by saying that Israel still controls the Sheba Farms, which are part of Lebanon, and still has Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails. Also, they add that the Israeli tank destroyed by Hezbollah, and the soldiers captured and killed on July 12, had trespassed into Lebanon's side of the border with Israel.


If the soldiers were indeed in the Lebanese Republic when captured, then how can it be argued to be a "kidnapping?" The State of Israel would have made a conscious decision to send soldiers into Lebanon, and I don't understand (if this is indeed the case) why the Government of Israel would think that Lebanon had no right to prosecute those who breach their laws within their own sovereign borders.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:45 pm
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 06:58 pm
Sheesh Barnard, that probably has some good stuff in it, but this thread isn't about WMD. Let's move all that stuff to the proper thread, okay?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 07:01 pm
freedom4free wrote:
imemc

Quote:
It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory [this is disputed - most reports show that the initial attack by Lebanese fighters on Israeli soldiers was actually inside Lebanese territory].


Atimes

Quote:
To them, it is legitimate self-defense. They back this argument by saying that Israel still controls the Sheba Farms, which are part of Lebanon, and still has Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails. Also, they add that the Israeli tank destroyed by Hezbollah, and the soldiers captured and killed on July 12, had trespassed into Lebanon's side of the border with Israel.


If the soldiers were indeed in the Lebanese Republic when captured, then how can it be argued to be a "kidnapping?" The State of Israel would have made a conscious decision to send soldiers into Lebanon, and I don't understand (if this is indeed the case) why the Government of Israel would think that Lebanon had no right to prosecute those who breach their laws within their own sovereign borders.


It was not a kidnapping not because of where the soldiers were, though they were not in Lebanese territory. It was a kidnapping because they were kidnapped.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 07:07 pm
I can't believe anybody would be arguing over this. Nasrallah has admitted what he was trying to accomplish, i.e. gain the freedom of a few hundred baby killers, father rapers, mother stabbers and what not.

The problem is that Israel doesn't want to deal with death penalties and keeps these lunatics around and, in the past, has at several points traded prisoners with Arab countries at many-to-one ratios. Nasrallah thought he was simply going to engage in some ordinary middle east business. I would also guess that the Iranians knew of this desire and turned the hezbullies loose to do this as a diversion from Iran's own atom-bomb plan problems with the rest of the world.

My advice to Israel, the US, and everybody else: when you catch a terrorist, give your intel people 48 hours to get any information they can out of him, and then hang him.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 09:32 pm
slkshock7 wrote:
What irks me is the growing perception that Hezbollah is winning this fight, simply by surviving...An example is this Aussie newspaper report....

There are other reports I've seen recently touting Nasrallah as the "only Muslim ever to defeat Israel".

What is being reinforced here is that terrorism used in conjunction with a nearly omnipresent press works as an effective weapon for gaining political capital and meeting political objectives. The extremely powerful but far too blunt military power of nations like Israel, US, Britain, and Russia can be defeated by hit and run tactics and cowering behind the skirts of women and children. In the end, covert assasination may become the only effective weapon against such tactics but when these powerful nations engage in assassinations, they are again soundly condemned by the press.

Over the past year or so, I was bothered a little by reports of Israeli assasinations and attempted assassinations. However, I'm beginning to see the value of such tactics. Assassinations certainly would avoid tragedies like at Qana, and probably would have less media shelf-life.


Well said.

I would hazard a guess that a major thrust in the development of military technology is towards improving a country's chances at tracking down and killing individuals. Drone aircraft have proven successful in this regard, as have, to a lesser extent, so-called smart bombs. The technology is still too blunt (to borrow your term) to change the face of warfare, but I think it is only a matter of time, and sooner than later. Imagine drones the size of sparrows, or even dragonflys. Hundreds or thousands of such weapons could be released in virtually any environment to hunt down and kill their prey, with very little risk of collateral damage.

Powerful nations are not going to simply accept the fact that tactics like those employed by Hezbollah and the insurgents in Iraq can effectively threaten their interests and harm their people. Bigger and more powerful is not the direction which they will follow, smaller and more precise will be.

Much has been written about a coming Singularity, when the confluence of several rapidly developing technologies will carry us to a point of currently unimaginable change. Those who predict such an event usually see it occurring within the next 30 to 50 years. If nanotechnology, genetic engineering, and artificial intelligence can create a world changing event in a matter of decades, think of the weapons they can create before then.

Its not an issue of whether or not nations will or should create these weapons (and almost certainly the US will lead the way), but when they will be deployed.

The history of war is a continuous series of action and reaction. It is not about to remain static in a place where asymetric warfare so favors non-state actors like Hezbollah and Al Qaeda.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 09:45 pm
revel wrote:
McG, the email did not say that the Hezbollah was using the UN as shields. He said that there was fighting in the area between Hezbollah and Israel.

The fact remains that 90% of the killings in Lebanon have been civilians. That means only 10% have been Hezbollah fighters. Israel must have a bad aim to miss the Hezbollah fighters 90% of the time hiding among the Lebanese citizens.


You keep making this argument. Obviously you think it a good one.

Foxfyre has already pointed out a simple fact which you seem determined to ignore: The majority of Hezbollah fighters are not uniformed soldiers. They look like civilians and they act like civilians when they are not firing rockets at Israel. I don't know where you come up with your favorite statistics, but because only 10% of the casualties can be identified as Hezbollah fighters does not, at all, mean that the other 90% were not Hezbollah fighters.

In addition, once the Hezbollah fighters fire their rockets they don't stick around to get pummelled by Israeli bombs. The rockets are mounted on motor vehicles. They are not handheld or transported by wild ass. The rockets are fired, the Hezbollah use their motor vehicles to split, and the civilians are left to suffer the Israeli counter-attack.

If Hezbollah was actually operating out of positions outside of towns and villages, this war would already be over.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:44 pm
Anyone some news about what Brand X reported earlier? Is that confirmed by now?

Here, in Europe, media didn't report such as didn't sources from Israel I get here (that's from Army radio over to the print media).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 11:55 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Anyone some news about what Brand X reported earlier? Is that confirmed by now?

Here, in Europe, media didn't report such as didn't sources from Israel I get here (that's from Army radio over to the print media).


Which post, Walter? If you mean the one about the deaths at Qana being possibly staged, there are some reports cautiously suggesting this as the investigation into that continues. There is this that is similar but from a different source from the one BrandX posted:


IDF says it may not be responsible for Qana deaths

By Amos Harel

The Israel Defense Forces indicated yesterday that it might not have been responsible for the deaths of at least 54 Lebanese, including 37 children , when a building bombed in an Israeli air strike in the village of Qana collapsed yesterday - but was unable to offer an alternative explanation.

There is an unexplained gap of about seven hours between the one Israeli air strike that hit the Qana building housing the civilians, which took place around 1 A.M. Sunday, and the first report that the building had collapsed, said the chief of staff of the Israel Air Force, Brigadier General Amir Eshel. Speaking at a press conference at the Kirya military complex in Tel Aviv last night, Eshel said that of three Israeli air strikes on Qana early Sunday, only the first strike hit the building in which the civilians were staying. The other two hit areas at least 400 meters away.

"I can't say whether the house collapsed at 12 A.M. or at 8 A.M.," said Eshel. "According to foreign press reports, and this is one of the reports we are relying on, the house collapsed at 8 A.M. We do not have testimony regarding the time of the collapse. If the house collapsed at 12 A.M., it is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it."

Eshel and Major General Gadi Eisencott, who heads the Operations Directorate in the General Staff, said Hezbollah had set up headquarters in Qana and that militants fired about 150 Katyusha rockets at parts of northern Israel, including Haifa and the Galilee panhandle, from Qana. Some of the rockets, the army said, were fired from the built-up areas of the village.

In the second IAF strike on Qana, which took place at around 2:30 A.M. Sunday, IAF planes bombed two targets located about 500 meters from the building that collapsed, and in the third strike, at around 7:30 A.M., three targets were bombed 460 meters away from the building, Eshel said. He told reporters that an analysis of photographs of the strikes, taken by cameras installed in the warplanes, showed that the four bombs dropped during the second and third strikes hit the intended targets, and that an IAF plane sent on a photo sortie in the afternoon confirmed that the intended targets had been hit.

The IDF has not released the aerial photographs, which Eshel said were being processed.

Addressing the possibility that the building may have collapsed because the IAF bombing triggered a delayed explosion of weapons stored inside, Eshel said: "I don't want to get into conspiracy theories. We will work diligently and collect every detail, so as to understand what happened there. I hope that we will know in the end, but I'm not sure. It's possible that we will never know what exactly happened there."

The IDF screened a video yesterday showing rocket launches from Qana, and said it chose the objectives in the village by analyzing the locations from which Hezbollah had fired rockets on Israel. However, the house that was hit had no direct connection to the rocket-launching cells. Nonetheless, IAF officials said that immediately after firing rockets at Israel, some Hezbollah cells hide in civilian houses in built-up areas in southern Lebanon.

IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz and other senior officers expressed regret yesterday over the deaths of the civilians. They said the IDF was not aware that the civilians were in the village and had expected them to leave Qana the week before, following Israeli warnings of an impending attack.

Eisencott blamed Hezbollah for the deaths, saying the group uses the civilian population as a human shield.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744426.html
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 11:59 pm
A magnificent report, Foxfyre. I do hope that revel reads it!!! If there is any truth to the report and the amount of time it took before the building was evacuated( something that would be very difficult to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt) then the Hezbohalla would certainly be classified fairly as "Islamo fascist fanatics who murder children for propagandistic purposes"
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 12:05 am
Yes, I know about this news from the press conferences (30./31.07.2006), where the Israelis are questioning the timing of the building's collapse and hinting that such civilian deaths are an inevitable result of Hezbollah's policy of using civilians as human shields.

I get the IDF's newsletters and press announcements.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 12:08 am
Given the propensity for conspiracy theories, etc. in things like this, I do think we need some more verification before sayings that the incident was staged by Hezbollah. While I have no doubt Hezbollah could and would do such a thing, we don't have enough information yet to come that conclusion.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 12:15 am
On my way to bed, but ran across this little essay tonight, and, though pure opinion, it is an informed opinon by one who has done his homework on the Middle East. I think it's quite pertinent to the issues at hand.

Quote:
One of America's most respected thinkers, Dennis Prager is an author, lecturer, teacher, and theologian with a nationally syndicated radio talk show originating from Los Angeles on KRLA 870 AM. He is a best selling author who has written four books and almost a thousand articles. His opinion pieces appear frequently in Los Angeles Times and Wall Street Journal. He has lectured in 45 US states, 9 of Canada's ten provinces, and on seven continents.

Books By Dennis Prager
10607 The Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism
49001 Why the Jews? - The Reason for Antisemitism
http://www.judaism.com/authorpics/prager.gif


Here's his take on this notion that "world opinon' should be a factor in the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah:

August 01, 2006
'World Opinion' is Worthless
By Dennis Prager

If you are ever morally confused about a major world issue, here is a rule that is almost never violated: Whenever you hear that "world opinion" holds a view, assume it is morally wrong.

And here is a related rule if your religious or national or ethnic group ever suffers horrific persecution: "World opinion" will never do a thing for you. Never.

"World opinion" has little or nothing to say about the world's greatest evils and regularly condemns those who fight evil.

The history of "world opinion" regarding the greatest mass murders and cruelties on the planet is one of relentless apathy.

Ask the 1.5 million Armenians massacred by the Ottoman Turks; or the 6 million Ukrainians slaughtered by Stalin; or the tens of millions of other Soviet citizens killed by Stalin's Soviet Union; or the 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their helpers throughout Europe; or the 60 million Chinese butchered by Mao; or the 2 million Cambodians murdered by Pol Pot; or the millions killed and enslaved in Sudan; or the Tutsis murdered in Rwanda's genocide; or the millions starved to death and enslaved in North Korea; or the million Tibetans killed by the Chinese; or the million-plus Afghans put to death by Brezhnev's Soviet Union.
Ask any of these poor souls, or the hundreds of millions of others slaughtered, tortured, raped and enslaved in the last 100 years, if "world opinion" did anything for them.

On the other hand, we learn that "world opinion" is quite exercised over Israel's unintentional killing of a few hundred Lebanese civilians behind whom hides Hezbollah -- a terror group that intentionally sends missiles at Israeli cities and whose announced goals are the annihilation of Israel and the Islamicization of Lebanon. And, of course, "world opinion" was just livid at American abuses of some Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. In fact, "world opinion" is constantly upset with America and Israel, two of the most decent countries on earth, yet silent about the world's cruelest countries.

Why is this?

Here are four reasons:

First, television news.

It is difficult to overstate the damage done to the world by television news. Even when not driven by political bias -- an exceedingly rare occurrence globally -- television news presents a thoroughly distorted picture of the world. Because it is almost entirely dependent upon pictures, TV news is only capable of showing human suffering in, or caused by, free countries. So even if the BBC or CNN were interested in showing the suffering of millions of Sudanese blacks or North Koreans -- and they are not interested in so doing -- they cannot do it because reporters cannot visit Sudan or North Korea and video freely. Likewise, China's decimation and annexation of Tibet, one of the world's oldest ongoing civilizations, never made it to television.

Second, "world opinion" is shaped by the same lack of courage that shapes most individual human beings' behavior. This is another aspect of the problem of the distorted way news is presented. It takes courage to report the evil of evil regimes; it takes no courage to report on the flaws of decent societies. Reporters who went into Afghanistan without the Soviet Union's permission were killed. Reporters would risk their lives to get critical stories out of Tibet, North Korea and other areas where vicious regimes rule. But to report on America's bad deeds in Iraq (not to mention at home) or Israel's is relatively effortless, and you surely won't get killed. Indeed, you may well win a Pulitzer Prize.

Third, "world opinion" bends toward power. To cite the Israel example, "world opinion" far more fears alienating the largest producers of oil and 1 billion Muslims than it fears alienating tiny Israel and the world's 13 million Jews. And not only because of oil and numbers. When you offend Muslims, you risk getting a fatwa, having your editorial offices burned down or receiving death threats. Jews don't burn down their critics' offices, issue fatwas or send death threats, let alone act on such threats.

Fourth, those who don't fight evil condemn those who do. "World opinion" doesn't confront real evils, but it has a particular animus toward those who do -- most notably today America and Israel.

The moment one recognizes "world opinion" for what it is -- a statement of moral cowardice, one is longer enthralled by the term. That "world opinion" at this moment allegedly loathes America and Israel is a badge of honor to be worn proudly by those countries. It is when "world opinion" and its news media start liking you that you should wonder if you've lost your way.
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 03:16 am
So the Pope, the Secretary General of the United Nations, governments around the world, and people everywhere have no right to speak out because they constitute "World Opinion" and Prager has defined that as being weak vacillating and of course morally wrong. Smile

What other rubbish does he come out with?

Quote:
Israel's unintentional killing of a few hundred Lebanese civilians
Unintentional? Sick. Israel launches the missiles and the bombs. Let the smart weapons decide. At Beziers the Crusaders were told by the Pope's representative "Kill them all. God will know his own". Now they send weapons of destruction. "Kill them all. The JBU26 will know civilians".

"A few hundred". And they were Lebanese anyway. Why thats not really killing at all is it? Just a handful of hundreds of sub humans, thats ok.

Quote:
It is difficult to overstate the damage done to the world by television news.
And difficult to over estimate the mental decreptitude of someone making that statement.

Quote:
Jews don't burn down their critics' offices, issue fatwas or send death threats, let alone act on such threats.
I really wish this were true.

Quote:
It is when "world opinion" and its news media start liking you that you should wonder if you've lost your way.
Prager's flaccid propaganda cannot mask the aggression being perpetrated in the name of oil and Israel.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 05:12 am
Quote:

Iran cleric calls on Muslims to arm Hizbollah
01 Aug 2006 09:31:11 GMT
Source: Reuters
Printable view | Email this article | RSS XML [-] Text [+]

Background
Israeli-Palestinian conflict
More
TEHRAN, Aug 1 (Reuters) - Muslim nations should arm Hizbollah in its fight against Israel, Iran's influential hardline clerical politician Ahmad Jannati said on Tuesday.

Iran has repeatedly said it only provides moral support to Lebanese Hizbollah guerrillas and there was no immediate sign that Iran's official policy has changed.

Israel accuses Iran of providing Hizbollah with missiles used against civilian and military targets.

"We are expecting Muslim nations to provide various kinds of support, including arms, medicine and food to Hizbollah," he told the students news agency ISNA.

Jannati heads the Guardian Council, Iran's constitutional watchdog composed of six clerics and six hardline lawyers.


Source
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 05:12 am
Foxfyre wrote:



IDF says it may not be responsible for Qana deaths

By Amos Harel

The Israel Defense Forces indicated yesterday that it might not have been responsible for the deaths of at least 54 Lebanese, including 37 children , when a building bombed in an Israeli air strike in the village of Qana collapsed yesterday - but was unable to offer an alternative explanation.

There is an unexplained gap of about seven hours between the one Israeli air strike that hit the Qana building housing the civilians, which took place around 1 A.M. Sunday, and the first report that the building had collapsed, said the chief of staff of the Israel Air Force, Brigadier General Amir Eshel. Speaking at a press conference at the Kirya military complex in Tel Aviv last night, Eshel said that of three Israeli air strikes on Qana early Sunday, only the first strike hit the building in which the civilians were staying. The other two hit areas at least 400 meters away.

"I can't say whether the house collapsed at 12 A.M. or at 8 A.M.," said Eshel. "According to foreign press reports, and this is one of the reports we are relying on, the house collapsed at 8 A.M. We do not have testimony regarding the time of the collapse. If the house collapsed at 12 A.M., it is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it."

Eshel and Major General Gadi Eisencott, who heads the Operations Directorate in the General Staff, said Hezbollah had set up headquarters in Qana and that militants fired about 150 Katyusha rockets at parts of northern Israel, including Haifa and the Galilee panhandle, from Qana. Some of the rockets, the army said, were fired from the built-up areas of the village.

In the second IAF strike on Qana, which took place at around 2:30 A.M. Sunday, IAF planes bombed two targets located about 500 meters from the building that collapsed, and in the third strike, at around 7:30 A.M., three targets were bombed 460 meters away from the building, Eshel said. He told reporters that an analysis of photographs of the strikes, taken by cameras installed in the warplanes, showed that the four bombs dropped during the second and third strikes hit the intended targets, and that an IAF plane sent on a photo sortie in the afternoon confirmed that the intended targets had been hit.

The IDF has not released the aerial photographs, which Eshel said were being processed.

Addressing the possibility that the building may have collapsed because the IAF bombing triggered a delayed explosion of weapons stored inside, Eshel said: "I don't want to get into conspiracy theories. We will work diligently and collect every detail, so as to understand what happened there. I hope that we will know in the end, but I'm not sure. It's possible that we will never know what exactly happened there."

The IDF screened a video yesterday showing rocket launches from Qana, and said it chose the objectives in the village by analyzing the locations from which Hezbollah had fired rockets on Israel. However, the house that was hit had no direct connection to the rocket-launching cells. Nonetheless, IAF officials said that immediately after firing rockets at Israel, some Hezbollah cells hide in civilian houses in built-up areas in southern Lebanon.

IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz and other senior officers expressed regret yesterday over the deaths of the civilians. They said the IDF was not aware that the civilians were in the village and had expected them to leave Qana the week before, following Israeli warnings of an impending attack.

Eisencott blamed Hezbollah for the deaths, saying the group uses the civilian population as a human shield.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744426.html


Translation!

"Just because we bombed the building doesn't mean the collapse had anything to do with us! The two events are totally unrelated. And you're a filthy anti-Semite if you dare suggest otherwise, too!"
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 05:45 am
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41947000/jpg/_41947584_girls_afp.jpg

Quote:
AMY GOODMAN: Robert Fisk reporting from Beirut. After the attack Sunday, Israel released what appeared to be video footage of Hezbollah rockets being launched from Qana toward towns in northern Israel. I asked Robert Fisk about the footage.

ROBERT FISK: I've seen the video footage. It's impossible to tell from the footage if indeed this is from Qana. You know, you have to realize that last time the massacre occurred at Qana in 1996, when they killed 106 refugees who were sheltering in the then-UN base that was there -- it doesn't exist anymore, but it did then -- more than half of them children, again. They said that missiles had been fired from within the UN base. It turns out that they were fired from half a mile away. They then said that they didn't have a live time pilot-less aircraft over the UN base at the time. And, in fact, on the Independent, I found a UN soldier who did have a videotape, showing clearly at the time of the bombardment -- this is in 1996 -- a live time photo reconnaissance unmanned aircraft over the base. The Israelis were later forced to admit that they had not told the truth: indeed there was a machine over the base at the time. You know, you can do what you want with photo reconnaissance pictures and with photographs after the event. It's interesting that we weren't shown these pictures before the massacre. We were only shown them after the massacre.

But they may be correct. The Hezbollah are firing missiles from villages in southern Lebanon, just as, for example, when the Israelis entered southern Lebanon and go into places like Bent Jabail, they're using civilian houses as cover for their tanks, so the Hezbollah use houses as cover for their missile launching. But the odd thing is the idea that for the Israeli military that somehow it's okay to kill all these children; if a missile is launched 30, 90 feet from their house, that's okay then. We've got some film to show the missiles were launched; that's okay then. I mean, did the aircraft which dropped this bomb, a guided weapon, by the way -- they knew what they were hitting. It's a guided weapon. We know that because the computer codes have been found on the bomb fragments. Did they say, "Oh, well, then, the man who launched the missile is hiding with the children in the basement of the house we're going to hit"? Is it the case now that if you happen to live in a house next to where someone launches a missile, you are to be sentenced to death? Is that what Israel thinks the war is about?

I'm sitting here, for example, in my house tonight in darkness -- there's no electricity -- next to a car park. What if someone launches a missile from the car park? Am I supposed to die for that? Is that a death sentence for me? Is that how Israel wages war? If I have children in the basement, are they to die for that? And then I'm told it's my fault or it's Hezbollah's fault? You know, these are serious moral questions.

It's quite clear from listening to the IDF statement today that they believe that family deserved to die, because 90 feet away, they claim, a missile was fired. So they sentenced all those people to death. Is that what we're supposed to believe? I mean, presumably it is. I can't think of any other reason why they should say, "Well, 30 meters away a missile was fired." Well, thanks very much. So those little children's corpses in their plastic packages, all stuck together like giant candies today, this is supposed to be quite normal, this is how war is to be waged by the IDF.

The fact that when they made these comments, they went unchallenged on television, was one of the most extraordinary scenes I've seen. I got back from Tyre on a very dangerous overland journey on an open road, which was under air attack, and I got back, and just before the electricity was cut, I saw the BBC reporting what the Israelis had said, but without questioning the morality that if someone fires a missile near your home, therefore it is perfectly okay for you to die.


Israeli Bombing of Qana That Killed 57, Including 37 Children
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 06:13 am
Israel plans deeper push into Lebanon

I am at least glad that the war is moving more into the particulars instead of civilians populations like it has been to date.

As for personal comments, I think is pretty obvious that most on this thread have their stances staked out so I am going to leave one last comment and leave the rest just for facts or articles. I am not fond of batting my head against brick walls.

Whether Israel has the right of it or not, they have good enough smart weapons that they could have avoided hitting civilians. They just don't care about the civilians anymore than any other terrorist does when it is after an aim.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Aug, 2006 06:21 am
Foxfyre wrote:


August 01, 2006
'World Opinion' is Worthless
By Dennis Prager

If you are ever morally confused about a major world issue, here is a rule that is almost never violated: Whenever you hear that "world opinion" holds a view, assume it is morally wrong.

And here is a related rule if your religious or national or ethnic group ever suffers horrific persecution: "World opinion" will never do a thing for you. Never.

"World opinion" has little or nothing to say about the world's greatest evils and regularly condemns those who fight evil.

The history of "world opinion" regarding the greatest mass murders and cruelties on the planet is one of relentless apathy.

Ask the 1.5 million Armenians massacred by the Ottoman Turks; or the 6 million Ukrainians slaughtered by Stalin; or the tens of millions of other Soviet citizens killed by Stalin's Soviet Union; or the 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their helpers throughout Europe; or the 60 million Chinese butchered by Mao; or the 2 million Cambodians murdered by Pol Pot; or the millions killed and enslaved in Sudan; or the Tutsis murdered in Rwanda's genocide; or the millions starved to death and enslaved in North Korea; or the million Tibetans killed by the Chinese; or the million-plus Afghans put to death by Brezhnev's Soviet Union.
Ask any of these poor souls, or the hundreds of millions of others slaughtered, tortured, raped and enslaved in the last 100 years, if "world opinion" did anything for them.

On the other hand, we learn that "world opinion" is quite exercised over Israel's unintentional killing of a few hundred Lebanese civilians behind whom hides Hezbollah -- a terror group that intentionally sends missiles at Israeli cities and whose announced goals are the annihilation of Israel and the Islamicization of Lebanon. And, of course, "world opinion" was just livid at American abuses of some Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. In fact, "world opinion" is constantly upset with America and Israel, two of the most decent countries on earth, yet silent about the world's cruelest countries.

Why is this?

Here are four reasons:

First, television news.

It is difficult to overstate the damage done to the world by television news. Even when not driven by political bias -- an exceedingly rare occurrence globally -- television news presents a thoroughly distorted picture of the world. Because it is almost entirely dependent upon pictures, TV news is only capable of showing human suffering in, or caused by, free countries. So even if the BBC or CNN were interested in showing the suffering of millions of Sudanese blacks or North Koreans -- and they are not interested in so doing -- they cannot do it because reporters cannot visit Sudan or North Korea and video freely. Likewise, China's decimation and annexation of Tibet, one of the world's oldest ongoing civilizations, never made it to television.

Second, "world opinion" is shaped by the same lack of courage that shapes most individual human beings' behavior. This is another aspect of the problem of the distorted way news is presented. It takes courage to report the evil of evil regimes; it takes no courage to report on the flaws of decent societies. Reporters who went into Afghanistan without the Soviet Union's permission were killed. Reporters would risk their lives to get critical stories out of Tibet, North Korea and other areas where vicious regimes rule. But to report on America's bad deeds in Iraq (not to mention at home) or Israel's is relatively effortless, and you surely won't get killed. Indeed, you may well win a Pulitzer Prize.

Third, "world opinion" bends toward power. To cite the Israel example, "world opinion" far more fears alienating the largest producers of oil and 1 billion Muslims than it fears alienating tiny Israel and the world's 13 million Jews. And not only because of oil and numbers. When you offend Muslims, you risk getting a fatwa, having your editorial offices burned down or receiving death threats. Jews don't burn down their critics' offices, issue fatwas or send death threats, let alone act on such threats.

Fourth, those who don't fight evil condemn those who do. "World opinion" doesn't confront real evils, but it has a particular animus toward those who do -- most notably today America and Israel.

The moment one recognizes "world opinion" for what it is -- a statement of moral cowardice, one is longer enthralled by the term. That "world opinion" at this moment allegedly loathes America and Israel is a badge of honor to be worn proudly by those countries. It is when "world opinion" and its news media start liking you that you should wonder if you've lost your way.
SOURCE


Translation...

"As long as i can get all the child prostitution i want with free trips to Israel and large sums of cash, i will stand by and support 'gods chosen people' even if i have to deceive."
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