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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 12:59 pm
@Advocate,
It's odd how you can be so rational at times, Advocate, and then ... you fall quickly into delusions.

Self interest can be such a strong motivating factor but there's real honesty when a person can put the self interest aside.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 01:08 pm
@JTT,
Well said; I find Advocate to be so rational in all of his posts not related to Israel. I guess it's really difficult to divorce themselves from things they must believe in; I see that in my own siblings when it comes to religion.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 01:10 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You think that repeating lies somehow creates truth.


Thats funny, coming from you.

You claimed that the US had an "illegal blockade" going on regarding Cuba, and you know thats a lie.

You claim that the US and Britain forced the entire UN to vote sanctions against Iraq, yet you ignored the fact that the ENTIRE UN consists of more then two countries.

You like to blame the US for all of the worlds problems and ills, yet you ignore all of the good the US has done and continues to do in the world.

So when it comes to repeating lies, you do seem to be the master of that.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 02:03 pm
@mysteryman,
It's only "illegal" in the sense that it makes no sense in terms of humanity or economy. It is the epitome of human rights violations against a country that poses no threat to the US. Why the US continues to boycott Cuba is a mystery of huge proportions.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 02:25 pm
@JTT,
The Zionists raised enormous amounts of money to buy-up land in what became Israel. Was that stealing? They also began farming on desert wasteland owned by no one.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2009 03:01 pm
@Advocate,
There are many reports of the illegal land grab by Israel. Here's one report from the UN:

Quote:

UN accuses Israel of illegal land grab

March 29 2003

Against a background of fresh violence in the West Bank and a call for the United States to publish its "road map" for peace in the Middle East, the United Nations has questioned the legality of Israel's security wall.

A UN investigator said the wall Israel says is to protect its citizens from Palestinian gunmen and suicide bombers was an illegal "creeping annexation" of Palestinian territory.

"The wall is being used as a way of expanding Israel's territory," the special rapporteur, John Dugard, said on Thursday before presenting a report to the Geneva-based UN Commission on Human Rights. "It amounts to illegal territorial gain."

Israel's Defence Ministry this week proposed extending the fence, which roughly follows the frontier with the West Bank, deeper into the West Bank to protect the Jewish settlements of Ariel, Emmanuel and Keddumim.

"Israel claims this is a temporary security measure, but I think the reality is that this is a form of creeping annexation of Palestinian territory," Mr Dugard said.

In his report on the violation of human rights in the occupied territories he said neither party in the more than two-year Palestinian uprising for statehood had paid proper respect to civilian life.

While Israel had real security concerns which could not be ignored, its response was excessive and disproportionate to the Palestinian attacks, he said.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 08:57 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hani-almadhoun/israel-make-over-here-is_b_179558.html

Quote:
Recent elections in Israel that resulted the victory of the Israeli right wing; the high death toll of civilians during the Israeli assault on Gaza, and the admission by Israeli soldiers that they viewed Gaza as a "shooting gallery" and randomly shot innocent civilians unconcerned about the consequences; the surge of racist and discriminatory practices against Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel promoted by Avigdor Lieberman, leader of the Yisrael Beiteinu party and a member of the incoming government; a wave of bestselling books critical of Israel; Israeli soldiers sporting t-shirts depicting the killing of Palestinians; and the democratization public opinion via non-traditional media, have all given Israel a headache. Of course it did not help that a number of Jewish foundations lost millions of dollars to Madoff and his ilk. Now Israel has a lot of work to do and I am sure they are shopping for advice from their friends who reside anywhere between Manhattan and Hollywood. I'm sure they will be generous with their advice on how to give Israel the makeover it needs in these hard times. But since Israel won't be soliciting any input from me or anyone of my kind, I've decided to offer a few ideas anyway.

Yes, I am a Palestinian from Gaza who lived under the Israeli occupation and my entire family still feels its impact twenty-four seven. Whatever decisions Israel decides to go with will surely affect me and millions like me.

I am a realist and realize that Israel has to do things a certain way, and they will not joke around with their security or any existential threats (real or perceived). For Israel's sake, causalities will occur and homes will be demolished. Progress in Palestinian-Israeli negotiations is a casualty of the old dilemma: who came first the chicken or the egg?

Palestinians want their land back, Israelis want to feel secure. Untying that knot depends on who lets go first: a Palestinian leader cannot deliver Israel security until he has a land upon which to enforce his rule, an Israeli leader cannot take the risk of giving up land, only to see it become a militant base camp. So, I've compiled a list of gestures Israel can make to improve their much troubled brand.

How about next time you go after a "bad guy," try not to kill an entire family with him. And if for reasons unknown you want to take the family with the "bad guy" leave the neighbors alone. Palestinians are never short of stories of innocent civilians who became victim to random bombing and shooting.

Perhaps when you impose a siege on Gaza as you are doing now, please allow in humanitarian supplies. In addition to banning any construction material and electronic devices, the lists also includes pasta, chick peas (no Humus or Falafel tonight) toilet paper (causing soggy bottoms and uproar in Foggy Bottom).

Next time you send a notice of demolition to an Arab in Jerusalem because he added an extra story to his home, also send another notice of eviction to that nice family of Russian Jews who are living in a settlement that violates the international conventions on occupation.

Do not open your doors to immigrants from all corners of earth while constructing walls to shut out the native inhabitants, keeping them from their families, schools and farms. Charity, as we know, begins at home.

Perhaps instead of addressing the symptom of a particular problem, the Israeli government will muster the courage to address the real cause of the problem. Launching primitive rockets on Sederot is cruel and inhuman, but can the Israelis now empathize with the innocent Palestinians who live under constant and more sophisticated firepower? I won't hold my breath.

If Israel is concerned about the demographic time bomb, research shows that education and development pushes down fertility rates. Why not allow Palestinian schools and universities to operate uninterrupted by forced closure and even invest in improving the Palestinian education system?

Instead of importing foreign labor whose wages are repatriated to their home country, hire a Palestinian who would turn around and buy Israeli goods and spend his time at home watching TV rather an hanging with his homeboys cooking up trouble.

The more settlers you send into the Occupied Territories, the more the two-state solution becomes obsolete. I anticipate the day when Palestinians start raising Israeli flags and calling for one man one vote. Democracy is a scary thing for those committed to a "Jewish" state.

About those 10,000 Palestinian prisoners you are holding in your world class prisons. Do you really want to do this? America is fighting a "global war on terror" and has not managed to sweep up 10,000 prisoner from the entire world -- but from population of only a few million you hold 10,000 Palestinians as prisoners; obviously the threshold you have to meet to get into an Israeli prisons is very low -- only for Palestinians though.

Change your military uniforms. To be honest the Israeli soldier is not what makes the soldier, the uniform does. A mean looking soldier with an intimidating uniform can be scary. Switch uniforms to more friendly ones such as clowns. It's friendly to the viewer and you know no one thinks of violence when they see a clown.

Assert that you are actually "de-developing" the Gaza Strip in order to make it "greener." Cutting fuel supplies, bombing highways, along with the destruction of other major infrastructure, will turn a place greener. But, the irony is, green is Hamas' color of choice.

Allow Palestinian students, especially ones granted scholarships, to go abroad and attend the colleges of their choice. Locking down the educated Palestinians will not do Israel any good and only turns those educated ones into frustrated idealists and potential militants, and no one wants to deal with the wrath of those people.

It's wise for Israel to allow sick Palestinians to get medical care wherever offered. Palestinians need clearance from Israel to receive medical attention in Egypt, Jordan or whatever country will take them. I'm sorry, but healthy people with a positive outlook on life are Israel's best friends.

Those are few gestures Israel can make to show good will toward the Palestinian people and the world community which has grown weary of Israel's unnecessary and inhumane tactics. Obviously, these suggestions may expose Israel to some risk, but the consequences of inaction could be much worse. Ultimately any Palestinian leadership has to reciprocate kind gestures by promising to work with Israel. And, positive Israeli gestures will surely give the Palestinian leadership ammunition with which to silent their opposition, especially those opposed to peaceful coexistence. And please take my unsolicited advice as you would take the advice of your college roommate, the one you must share a space with peace.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 09:28 am
@FreeDuck,
From that list of suggestions:

Quote:
How about next time you go after a "bad guy," try not to kill an entire family with him. And if for reasons unknown you want to take the family with the "bad guy" leave the neighbors alone. Palestinians are never short of stories of innocent civilians who became victim to random bombing and shooting.


How about the Palestinians take the initiative here and insist that the bad guy doesn't place his missile launcher in the middle of his family and their neighbors? That would remove all civilians from any risk of Israeli attack whatsoever.
Quote:


Perhaps when you impose a siege on Gaza as you are doing now, please allow in humanitarian supplies. In addition to banning any construction material and electronic devices, the lists also includes pasta, chick peas (no Humus or Falafel tonight) toilet paper (causing soggy bottoms and uproar in Foggy Bottom).


It was my understanding that Israel not only allows humanitarian supplies into Gaza but provides some of them. Certainly Israel has been allowing into Gaza all humanitarian supplies received. How about your persuading your leadership not to appropriate the supplies for themselves and/or to sell in order to resupply their weapons and ammunition?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1231424932109

Quote:
Next time you send a notice of demolition to an Arab in Jerusalem because he added an extra story to his home, also send another notice of eviction to that nice family of Russian Jews who are living in a settlement that violates the international conventions on occupation.


No idea what is referenced here. Most places require a permit and even in Albuquerque, if you add a second story without a permit to do so, the city will require that you remove it.

Quote:
Do not open your doors to immigrants from all corners of earth while constructing walls to shut out the native inhabitants, keeping them from their families, schools and farms. Charity, as we know, begins at home.


Those walls keep those native inhabitants from blowing up croweded markets and busses full of school children. When the native inhabitants stop that kind of activity, the walls will come down.

Quote:
Perhaps instead of addressing the symptom of a particular problem, the Israeli government will muster the courage to address the real cause of the problem. Launching primitive rockets on Sederot is cruel and inhuman, but can the Israelis now empathize with the innocent Palestinians who live under constant and more sophisticated firepower? I won't hold my breath.


Stop launching the rockets and there will be no fire from any firepower at all. Such a simple idea and so hard for some people to grasp.

Quote:
If Israel is concerned about the demographic time bomb, research shows that education and development pushes down fertility rates. Why not allow Palestinian schools and universities to operate uninterrupted by forced closure and even invest in improving the Palestinian education system?


Why don't the Palestinians improve their own school system? They could do a lot with what they are spending on rockets and rocket launchers and terrorist training camps.

Quote:
Instead of importing foreign labor whose wages are repatriated to their home country, hire a Palestinian who would turn around and buy Israeli goods and spend his time at home watching TV rather an hanging with his homeboys cooking up trouble.


I'm sure when the Palestinians have stopped trying to exterminate Israelis, the Israelis will do just that. Until then, it is an unrealistic expectation for Israelis to be able to determine whether a person is a worker or a spy or a terrorist intent on murder or sabotage.

Quote:
The more settlers you send into the Occupied Territories, the more the two-state solution becomes obsolete. I anticipate the day when Palestinians start raising Israeli flags and calling for one man one vote. Democracy is a scary thing for those committed to a "Jewish" state.


Israel is the most democratic nation in the Middle East and the one that has offered the 20% of its population who are peaceful Palestinians full citizenship and full opportunities for peaceful prosperity. Take the hint.

Quote:
About those 10,000 Palestinian prisoners you are holding in your world class prisons. Do you really want to do this? America is fighting a "global war on terror" and has not managed to sweep up 10,000 prisoner from the entire world -- but from population of only a few million you hold 10,000 Palestinians as prisoners; obviously the threshold you have to meet to get into an Israeli prisons is very low -- only for Palestinians though.


How many terrorists is it appropriate for Israel to hold in their prisons? Of course they could exterminate them and have none.

Quote:
Change your military uniforms. To be honest the Israeli soldier is not what makes the soldier, the uniform does. A mean looking soldier with an intimidating uniform can be scary. Switch uniforms to more friendly ones such as clowns. It's friendly to the viewer and you know no one thinks of violence when they see a clown.


And we just became unserious didn't we.

Quote:
Assert that you are actually "de-developing" the Gaza Strip in order to make it "greener." Cutting fuel supplies, bombing highways, along with the destruction of other major infrastructure, will turn a place greener. But, the irony is, green is Hamas' color of choice.


Peaceful Palestinians could do anything with Gaza that they wanted. Try that.

Quote:
Allow Palestinian students, especially ones granted scholarships, to go abroad and attend the colleges of their choice. Locking down the educated Palestinians will not do Israel any good and only turns those educated ones into frustrated idealists and potential militants, and no one wants to deal with the wrath of those people.


No idea what this is about either. It is my understanding that anybody can leave Israel any time they choose. Israel has no say in who leaves Palestinian territories.

Quote:
It's wise for Israel to allow sick Palestinians to get medical care wherever offered. Palestinians need clearance from Israel to receive medical attention in Egypt, Jordan or whatever country will take them. I'm sorry, but healthy people with a positive outlook on life are Israel's best friends


Sick Palestinians in Israel get the same medical care as anybody else and can go wherever they choose to get healthecare. I'm sure sick Palestinians in Palestinian lands would have a better go of it too if their leadership would stop trying to kill Israelis.

To me this is not rocket science. To ask a people to play nice while your leaders are doing everything in their power to kill those same people seems really dumb no matter what the cultural differences might be.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 09:44 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:
How about the Palestinians take the initiative here and insist that the bad guy doesn't place his missile launcher in the middle of his family and their neighbors? That would remove all civilians from any risk of Israeli attack whatsoever.


If what you say can be accomplished, why do we have so much violence in the US and elsewhere around the world? Your reality about human life is not only ridiculous, but impossible. You want Palestinians to accomplish where it's impossible everywhere else. You are the imbecile around here who doesn't understand human nature. BTW, yes, that's an ad hominem for you because you deserve every word of it. We have prisons in the US full of American citizens filling them. DUH!
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 11:12 am
@cicerone imposter,
Why couldn't it be accomplished? They had the manpower and ability to pull those rocket launchers into civilian neighborhoods and this was done deliberately to draw Israeli fire into those neighborhoods. They certainly have the manpower and ability to place those rocket launchers away from civilian neighborhoods and thereby protect the women and children.

We aren't talking about ANYTHING here other than the issue of collateral damage among civilians among the Palestinians, and there is zero evidence that Israel would attack any area that posed no threat to Israel. In fact Israel has bent over backwards to warn the civilians that they were in harms way and urge them to get out.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 11:21 am
@Foxfyre,
Have "you" ever tried to stop people with rocket launchers in your life? They also have guns. How would you "stop" them?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 11:27 am
@cicerone imposter,
The Israelis cannot stop them. And it is understandable that the terrorists who have the guns can intimidate the civilians so that the terrorists do whatever they want to do with impunity. But when the choice for Israel is to allow their civilians to be attacked or take out the rocket launchers wherever they are, it is a no brainer what Israel's response should be.

It is a tragedy for the Palestinian civilians who are powerless in this situation. But to heap sympathy on the terrorists while condemning the Israelis is only encouraging and pushing the terrorists to continue their efforts. World opinion should come down on those terrorists with a vengeance with unequivocable terms that the militants disarm and stand down before any negotiations on behalf of the Palestinians would be conducted, and that would probably end the problem. There is no history of the Israelis being unreasonable with anybody who is not intent on destroying Israel and/or the Israelis.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 11:32 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
But to heap sympathy on the terrorists
Yeah, I see a lot of that. Actually, I bbelieve most people discern a notable difference betwee n the Palistinian people and Palistinian Terrorists.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 11:35 am
I've seen little or no anger or condemnation heaped on the terrrorists among the pro-Palestinian sympathizers on this thread or anywhere else. Everybody seems to lump those guys with the rockets and rocket launchers in with the general population and focuses all their condemnation on Israel who is defending its civilian population from attack.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 11:39 am
@Foxfyre,
You gulp propaganda like a whale shark gulps plankton, Foxy?

Quote:

In Dense Gaza, Civilians Suffer

By TAGHREED EL-KHODARY
Published: December 31, 2008

GAZA " A dentist stood at the bed of a doctor, his good friend Ehab Madhoun, 32, who had just died, his shrapnel-pitted body wrapped in a white shroud. for a day, dying of his wounds on Wednesday in the intensive care unit of Shifa Hospital, where hundreds of people have been brought since Israel began its heaviest assault on Gaza in three decades.

The dentist cried.

“He was just doing his work,” said the dentist, who would not give his name. “He’s a doctor, and I can’t understand why Israel would hit an ambulance. They can tell from the cameras it’s an ambulance.”

It has always been this way, over years of conflict here, that civilians are killed in the densely populated Gaza Strip when Israel stages military operations it says are essential for its security. But five days of Israeli airstrikes have surpassed past operations in scale and intensity; the long-distance bombardment of the Hamas-controlled territory has, however well aimed at those suspected of being militants, splintered families and shattered homes in one of the most densely populated places on Earth.

Among the total dead " between 320 and 390, according to the United Nations " Palestinian medical officials say that 38 were children and 25 were women. The United Nations agency that helps Palestinian refugees said 25 percent of those killed had been civilians. Israel said it knew of 40 civilian deaths but that it was still checking.
...

Further complicating matters is that fact that Gaza is the size of Detroit, with one and a half times as many people. The military and government facilities of Hamas are intertwined with buildings where Gaza’s civilian population lives and works. Israelis say Hamas fires rockets at Israel from civilian neighborhoods.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/world/middleeast/01gaza.html
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 11:44 am
@JTT,
Nope. I try to avoid the propaganda pieces that are obviously written to drum up sympathy for the Palestinians or the Israelis and I see them for what they are. You obviously don't. You do graphically illustrate the point I made in my previous post though.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 11:58 am
@Foxfyre,
It's a "no brainer" for you, because you don't have a brain - that god gave you! It's never right to kill innocent people to go after criminals.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 12:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes CI, it is sometimes necessary to kill innocent people to go after criminals. Sometimes it cannot be avoided, especially when those criminals are intending for the innocent to be killed. If you ever served in combat you took the chance of killing an innocent every time you pulled the trigger or laid a mine or dropped a bomb or set the coordinates for artillery. That's why war is so inhumane and unconscionable. The rain falls on the just and unjust. Innocents always suffer.

But if the choice for Israel is to allow their innocents to be targeted with impunity or go after the source of the attacks, then maybe I have no brain, but it is still a no brainer that Israel should do whatever it can do to stop the attacks.

And I'm guessing that if you are faced with the choice of protecting your wife, kids, grandkids and/or other loved ones even though somebody innocent might get hurt, you will make that same choice too.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 12:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Your statement that Foxfyre doesn't "have a brain - that god gave you," is a slander unless you can provide the following information:
(1) Quote the statement or statements Foxfyre made that you think are false;
(2) Provide evidence that this statement or these statements are false;
(3) Provide evidence that making such a statement or statements is evidence that the maker of such statements doesn't have a brain.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 12:22 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

How about the Palestinians take the initiative here and insist that the bad guy doesn't place his missile launcher in the middle of his family and their neighbors? That would remove all civilians from any risk of Israeli attack whatsoever.

Right. I can see it now. Hamas worker enters his house, "honey I'm home", drops his lunch box and his rocket launcher in the entry way, "what's for dinner?". The targeted assassinations towards people have nothing to do with where militants store their weapons.

Quote:
Quote:
Next time you send a notice of demolition to an Arab in Jerusalem because he added an extra story to his home, also send another notice of eviction to that nice family of Russian Jews who are living in a settlement that violates the international conventions on occupation.


No idea what is referenced here. Most places require a permit and even in Albuquerque, if you add a second story without a permit to do so, the city will require that you remove it.

Since he lives there and you don't, perhaps you should try to find out what it's about before arguing against it? How does a Palestinian go about getting a building permit and how many are typically issued?

Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps instead of addressing the symptom of a particular problem, the Israeli government will muster the courage to address the real cause of the problem. Launching primitive rockets on Sederot is cruel and inhuman, but can the Israelis now empathize with the innocent Palestinians who live under constant and more sophisticated firepower? I won't hold my breath.


Stop launching the rockets and there will be no fire from any firepower at all. Such a simple idea and so hard for some people to grasp.

You completely miss his point and don't answer his question.

Quote:
Quote:
The more settlers you send into the Occupied Territories, the more the two-state solution becomes obsolete. I anticipate the day when Palestinians start raising Israeli flags and calling for one man one vote. Democracy is a scary thing for those committed to a "Jewish" state.


Israel is the most democratic nation in the Middle East and the one that has offered the 20% of its population who are peaceful Palestinians full citizenship and full opportunities for peaceful prosperity. Take the hint.

I think he gets the hint: that Israel intends to settle all of the territory that was supposed to be for the Palestinian state and that they are trying to establish facts on the ground preventing an eventual Palestinian state. Again you miss his point. You don't address how the network of settlements in the West Bank 1) appropriates Palestinian land, 2) chops up their territory with Israeli only roads that they are not allowed to use and make their own travels nearly impossible and 3) results in defacto borders well outside what has been accepted by the international community.

Quote:
Quote:
Allow Palestinian students, especially ones granted scholarships, to go abroad and attend the colleges of their choice. Locking down the educated Palestinians will not do Israel any good and only turns those educated ones into frustrated idealists and potential militants, and no one wants to deal with the wrath of those people.


No idea what this is about either. It is my understanding that anybody can leave Israel any time they choose. Israel has no say in who leaves Palestinian territories.

Again, since he lives there and you've never been, maybe you should try to find out what it's about before arguing. "Israel has no say in who leaves the Palestinian territories" is about the falsest statement I've seen you write. You already know that Israel has a blockade up on Gaza, which means they control those borders. They also control the border with Jordan.

0 Replies
 
 

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