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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 02:40 pm

I think Foxfire is wrong: Ican is definitely nuts, no question about it.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 02:41 pm
@McTag,
Hmmm. Maybe you're right. But I sure do hope there are a lot more nuts on the same tree.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 03:54 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Ican is definitely nuts, no question about it.


QED: McTag, you are a slandering bigot.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 04:27 pm
@McTag,
And what are your professional credentials to make such a diagnosis?
When did you examine him and arrive at that conclusion?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 04:43 pm
@mysteryman,

It's a game Ican and I play. He writes really stupid posts, and I tell him he's really stupid.

I don't know whether he actually is or not, I'm just going by the posts.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 04:59 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Since you might have a better insight to a theory, do you think it is possible that Israel came into existence in 1948, not only to put the displaced persons (aka , Jews) outside of a Europe that did not want them, and not only to take these people out of a London that did not want them, but to be the final logic in the allies de-Nazification program. That would be because the Nazis used the existing anti-Semitism (against European/German Jews) as a very good marketing appeal to getting the vote for Hitler. I do believe the popular notion then was that Jews had too much power in Germany, and therefore the anti-Jewish Laws were widely accepted. (Funny, that thought exists in the U.S.A. amongst some - i.e., who are they to participate so successfully in the system) . Now with Israel's existence (1948 with the de-Nazification program still existing I thought), one great reason for masses to vote for Nazis was eliminated. Worldwide, people were correct to think that Jews would focus their energies on this fledgling Jewish state, rather than what many perceived as the goal of pre-WWII Jewry.

Now, I wonder if one can give credence, perhaps to some degree, to the above thoughts. I say this because, if Israel ever ceased to exist, I believe the old Judeophobia would resurface at some point, as Jews became too successful in many countries, in the perception of many a non-Jew?

In other words, Israel , hot as it is, functions like the freezer section of a refrigerator, so to speak, keeping "too many Jews" away from the masses that might have a low toleration for Jews, and/or the competition they are perceived to engender. And, with that low toleration might come again the willingness to vote in a proverbial strong man.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 05:01 pm
@ican711nm,
Slander requires that McTag describe a falsehood. In describing you as nuts, he clearly has not.

Where 'bigot' came from, I'll never know.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 05:02 pm
@JTT,
I agree totally.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 05:09 pm
@Foofie,
That's something I left out of my previous summation Foofie. The anti-Israel bigots--and I do call them bigots since they can't seem to discuss this without showing their contempt/hatred for Israel--along with everything else they acuse Israel of, condemn Israel for not opening its borders and allowing all Palestinians to move in who want to do so and for not giving the new Palestinians full rights to citizenship and all benefits that go with it.

I can see that should Israel do that, Israel will cease to exist because it will no longer have a majority vote to ensure that all the citizens of Israel will be treated equally and fully protected. The Palestinians have already indicated in very clear terms that they have zero intention of ensuring that all the citizens of Israel will be treated equally and fully protected.

What the anti-Israel critics propose for Israel would not be much different than the USA simply rolling over and complying with everything the USSR was demanding during the cold war and giving the USSR a free rein to do anything it wanted with the United States.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 06:00 pm
WHAT’S NUTS ABOUT THIS?

In 1947, Britain asked the UN to recommend a solution to its Palestine problem.

In 1947, the UN recommended a two state solution: one for the Palestinian Arabs and one for the Palestinian Jews..

In 1948, Britain abandoned Palestine.

In 1948, Israel declared its independence.

Subsequently in 1948 and thereafter Palestinian Arabs and their supporters attempted to steal Israel.

In the process of stopping the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters from stealing Israel in 1948, Israel stole some Palestinian land.

In the process of stopping the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters from stealing Israel after 1948, Israel stole some more Palestinian land, some of which they returned.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 07:45 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
US - Israeli UN Resolution Hypocrisy


July 31, 2006 By Stephen Lendman

Two nations stand out above all others as notorious serial abusers of UN resolutions - the US and Israel. Over the last half century, the US has used its Security Council veto many dozens of times to prevent any resolutions from passing condemning Israel for its abusive or hostile actions or that were inimical to Israeli interests. It's also voted against dozens of others overwhelmingly supported by the rest of the world in the UN General Assembly. By its actions and with 6% of the world's population, the US has thus arrogantly ignored the will of nearly all the other 94% to support its client state even when Israel had committed war crimes or crimes against humanity the rest of the world demanded it be held to account for. In the words of one UK observer using a baseball analogy: "Only the USA could have a World Series and not invite the rest of the world."

The Israeli record on UN resolutions over that same period is far worse. With full US support for its actions, it's flagrantly and with little or no pretense routinely ignored over five dozen UN Resolutions condemning or censuring it for its actions against the Palestinians or other Arab people, deploring it for committing them, or demanding, calling on or urging the Jewish state to end them. Israel never did or intends to up to the present, including the mass slaughter and destruction it's now inflicting on the people of Lebanon and the Palestinians in their Territories that Israel illegally occupies and attacks whenever it wishes. It does so with impunity using any contrived pretext it can get away with to deny the Palestinians any chance ever for a viable sovereign independent state and to avoid a political solution with them it won't ever tolerate.


UN Resolutions As Examples of US and Israeli Hypocrisy

Consider now three UN Resolutions as examples of gross hypocrisy - one Israel and its US paymaster and benefactor support and two others both countries do not so they ignore them. In September, 2004, the Security Council passed UN Resolution 1559, cosponsored by the US and France, that called on Syria to withdraw its military forces from Lebanon and stop intervening in the Lebanese political process. It also demanded all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias (aimed mainly at Hezbollah, of course) disarm and disband (meaning surrender). Following the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister, Rafik Hariri, in February, 2005, Syria bowed to international pressure and complied fully with the resolution by April. In so doing, it ended its 29 year occupation of the part of the country it controlled which excluded the rest in the South under Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) control that Israel maintained after its invasion of Southern Lebanon in 1978 and again in 1982. Hezbollah's military resistance wing did not comply. Had it done so, it would have left itself and the Shia third of the Lebanese population dependent on it defenseless against the Israelis. The Lebanese government and its small and weak security forces had no power to force Hezbollah's compliance and were unable to do it.

Hezbollah was born out of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and the oppressive occupation that followed. It's a popular resistance movement, much like and in the same spirit as the French Resistance freedom fighters the Nazis called terrorists, formed to resist their illegal occupiers and expel them. Ever since, it's continued as an effective resistance force against the Israelis that finally withdrew from Lebanon in May, 2000 but maintained its occupation of the 25 square kilometer area of South Lebanon known as Shebaa Farms it never relinquished after seizing it in the 1967 war. Hezbollah, the Lebanese people and its government demand Israel give it back as well as cease its frequent hostile cross-border incursions, unjustifiable abductions, repeated violations of the country's airspace as well as end its current brutal assault and invasion of their country once again. To continue being an effective resistance force, Hezbollah remained armed, has every right to do so in its own self-defense whatever resolutions the UN passes, and will continue resisting Israeli oppression until it ends. It's now doing it against a vastly superior IDF invasion force in South Lebanon far more effectively than the Israeli government is willing to admit.

Now consider UN Resolutions 465 and 476. The Security Council unanimously adopted UN Resolution 465 in March, 1980 that addressed Israel's illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Syrian Golan Heights. Among other provisions in it, it condemned Israel's policy of "setting parts of its population and new Immigrants in those territories (and said doing so constituted) a flagrant violation of the fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East." It called on the government of Israel to "dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease....the establishment, construction and planning of (new) settlements in the Arab territories since 1967, including Jerusalem."

In the last 26 years, Israel has flagrantly violated this resolution and still continues to build new settlements illegally in the Palestinian Occupied Territories. The US supports and funds the Israeli government enabling it to do it, and the UN and world community have taken no action to bring Israel into compliance which it could do by imposing sanctions severe enough to force Israel to stop new settlement construction, dismantle the existing ones and make restitution to the Palestinians and Syrians for the harm caused them.

[read on at]

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3460

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 07:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
... condemn Israel for not opening its borders and allowing all Palestinians to move in who want to do so and for not giving the new Palestinians full rights to citizenship and all benefits that go with it.


As that was exactly what a group of Israeli terrorists was given back in the late 1940s it seems eminently fair, Foxy.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 08:32 pm
Have you noticed that when one disagrees with the Isrelie appoligists that they instantly go to the your a racist bastard line. They dont even try to defend the blood lust of the isralie army and government. They say its justified because Hitler killed jews in Germany 60 years ago. Anybody got the defination of parnoia.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 08:39 pm
@rabel22,
rabel22 wrote:

Have you noticed that when one disagrees with the Isrelie appoligists that they instantly go to the your a racist bastard line. They dont even try to defend the blood lust of the isralie army and government. They say its justified because Hitler killed jews in Germany 60 years ago. Anybody got the defination of parnoia.


Nobody has said that Rabel. But what card were you playing when you posted this?
Quote:
Your and ican and advocates logic is so screwed up that it makes no sence to try to reason with any of you. Your brains are incased in a container of lead and nothing gets through to you. You believe that any murder commited by the jewish state is justified because the parnoia of the jewish state demands it. You cant see that the Jewish state is as Natzie as germany ever was. Closed minds cant be reasoned with.


Why is it that those on your side are unable to make any kind of rational argument without being personally insulting to people who disagree with your point of view? Perhaps you can provide something to justify your opinion re the 'blood lust of the Israeli army'? Or do you have anything substantive to back up your opinion that the Israelis are as bad as the Nazis?

How about I post a bunch of photos showing Democrats side by side with Ghengis Khan, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, et al as if posting pictures side by side draws some kind of parallel between Democrats and truly savage and brual dictators? Would you see that as a reasonable thing or would you see it as dishonest and unethical as those pictures attempting to draw comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 08:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

That's something I left out of my previous summation Foofie. The anti-Israel bigots--and I do call them bigots since they can't seem to discuss this without showing their contempt/hatred for Israel--along with everything else they acuse Israel of, condemn Israel for not opening its borders and allowing all Palestinians to move in who want to do so and for not giving the new Palestinians full rights to citizenship and all benefits that go with it.

I can see that should Israel do that, Israel will cease to exist because it will no longer have a majority vote to ensure that all the citizens of Israel will be treated equally and fully protected. The Palestinians have already indicated in very clear terms that they have zero intention of ensuring that all the citizens of Israel will be treated equally and fully protected.

What the anti-Israel critics propose for Israel would not be much different than the USA simply rolling over and complying with everything the USSR was demanding during the cold war and giving the USSR a free rein to do anything it wanted with the United States.


I believe some of the anti-Israel positions predates the Gaza conflict. That compounds the inability to understand who has an idealogical position and who is just reacting to Israel's military involvement.

But, I believe that is just academic, since Israel is a sovereign nation, and will try its darndest to survive, regardless of what nations are its allies, or not.

Let us not forget that Israel has a universal draft, including women not married, or have children. So, in a worse case scenario, the world might be taken aback by an army waging war with half the boots on the ground belonging to women. But, if that ever came to pass, I would guess none of the anti-Israel folk would blame themselves, inasmuch as all along some gave hope to the Arabs and/or Palestineans that a percentage of the world was on their side, and would accept Israel being eliminated.

Israel need not let one Palestinean enter Israel, in my opinion, since these Palestineans left in 1948, and in effect, voted their non-allegiance to Israel with their feet, literally.

I would like to see Israel offer Mexicans temporary worker visas, and eliminate Palestineans as farm workers anyway.

These next four years, with the new U.S. administration, will be interesting for those that are watching the Middle East situation.


JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 08:54 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
How about I post a bunch of photos showing Democrats side by side with ... , Saddam Hussein,


I could show you some photos of conservatives side by side with Saddam and provide proof that he was backed by conservative US governments. Would that help you, Foxy?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 08:58 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
I would like to see Israel offer Mexicans temporary worker visas, and eliminate Palestineans as farm workers anyway.


Read as:

Stealing their land, holding them as prisoners, none of this is working. I'm in favor of the complete extermination of Palestinians, indeed all Arabs who stand in the way of a greater Israel. Genocide genocide genocide!!
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 09:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Perhaps you can provide something to justify your opinion re the 'blood lust of the Israeli army'? Or do you have anything substantive to back up your opinion that the Israelis are as bad as the Nazis?



Quote:
It's Time for Your Check-Up

Bend Over Professor Dershowitz

By FRANKLIN LAMB

Beirut.

"Israel is leveling Gaza to strike at Hamas, just as they pulverized south Lebanon to strike at Hezbollah. Yet in both cases civilian populations were attacked, countless innocents killed or injured, infrastructure targeted and destroyed, and civil law enforcement negated. All this was, and is, disproportionate, indiscriminate mass violence in violation of international law. Israel is not exempt from international law and must be held accountable. It is time for the UN to not just call for a cease-fire, but for an inquiry as to Israel's illegal actions." " US Congressman Dennis Kucinich, 12/29/08

...

Alan Dershowitz: "Hamas knew that Israel would never fire at a home with civilians in it"

Fact Check: On the contrary, Hamas and every person over 7 years old in the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza, as well as in Lebanon and Palestine know that Israel will for sure "fire at a home with civilians in it." And also ambulances, convoys fleeing a war zone with prior UN and IDF approval and waving white flags, homes with only five children and their mother inside as they did in Nabysheet, Lebanon on July 19, 2006, destroying the family of my friend Abu Mohammad Chokr. History has shown that is what Israel does regularly and why it is increasingly a pariah state.

Virtually every human rights organization including Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and relevant UN Agencies, the European Union, objective Israeli and international investigative journalists digging beneath the mainstream media headlines has documented hundreds of cases of Israel targeting " a home with civilians in it". No fewer than 234 cases of firing on civilians in South Lebanon alone during 2006, and hundreds of others in Palestine. In the past week in Gaza (29 December 2008- 6 Jan 2009), Israel fired on more than 54 homes with civilians in them.

Alan Dershowitz: "Terrorists firing at Sderot are so proud of their actions that they sign their weapons".

Fact Check: Goodness Professor, since the days of cave men, the armies of Greece, Rome, Genghis Khan, to cowboys in the American west notching or 'signing' their six-guns and rifles, one imagines virtually every army in history has been done this. We do know the 'most moral', 'elite' and 'purity of arms' guys and gals in the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) do it as well. Yet it is a bit less sinister for lonely scared fighters to sign their weapons as a 'security blanket' than for the Public Information unit in the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs to herd Israeli youngsters onto buses, as was done in 2006 in Lebanon, to visit IDF artillery bases and be given felt pens and told to sign the 155 mm cluster bomb rounds containing US supplied M-24, M-77 bomblets, before they are fired into South Lebanon in to kill and maim fellow school children.

And indeed, sorry to be indelicate, but it is also a bit more civilized to sign one's weapon than the traditional practice of the Israeli forces entering civilian houses in numerous villages in South Lebanon in 2006 (they did the same this in during their wars against Lebanon in1978, 1982, 1993, and 1996" and rubbing their faeces over walls, inside water tanks, in pillows, beds etc poisoning wells and booby trapping children's toys (apparently it's an Occupation thing that warrants psychological study).

[read on at]

http://www.counterpunch.org/lamb01072009.html


I find Dershowitz's argument about signing the weapons to be especially hypocritical. Look at all the examples plastered in US newspapers of troops doing that precise thing.


0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 09:27 pm
I could paste page after page after page of equally biased sources as well as credible sources disputing the distortions in your cut and paste JTT, but I will refrain from doing so as such sources have already been posted, linked, referred to, and discussed at great length over these many hundreds of pages. Your source failed to mention that Israel has no choice but to hit civilian areas because that's where Hamas hides and uses their weapons and ammunition. Your source didn't mention that Israel has been dropping leaflets warning the civilian population of impending attack and to get out of the area. Your source didn't mention that Hamas hides behind women and children to ensure that there is collateral damage so they can parade their dead and wounded proudly to generate public outrage from the bleeding heart liberals who believe Israel can do no right. Your source failed to mention that Hamas has been suspected of creating their own collateral damage among women and children if they didn't sustain enough damage for effective public relations purposes. Your source failed to mention that Hamas doesn't give a flying fig for respect for human life and the more they can trick people like you into seeing them as the victim and Israel as the villain, then they can gleefully claim victory.

Hamas doens't have to win the war. They only have to generate enough sympathy to convince those who despise Israel to keep the pressure on Israel.

Meanwhile, if Hamas was not firing rocket after rocket after rocket into Israeli civilian neighborhoods hoping to hit something, anybody, preferably women and children, the Palestinians would not be taking any damage whatsoever from Israel.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 09:33 pm
I think I will post this article, however, for those who are interested in a full airing of the problem. Gunga posted it on another thread, but it belongs here too. (The color emphasis is mine and is for a special treat for Rabel.)

Quote:
Jan 22, 2009 17:45 | Updated Jan 24, 2009 20:22
Guest Columnist: Marching for Hamas
By DENIS MACEOIN

Hamas is a bully aided by a bigger bully, Iran. And, just as strident and threatening human bullies get away with their aggression so long as no one calls their bluff, so Hamas has been getting away with murder and torture because the UN and many states won't call its two-faced self-portrayal as the victim in the piece. In the struggle to take over Gaza from Fatah, it went on a rampage that killed hundreds of Palestinians. Even during this most recent assault, in early January, it executed Fatah members for violating their house arrest. A few weeks ago, Hamas determined to hurt yet more of its compatriots by introducing Islamic hudud punishments to the Strip, from amputations and stonings, to crucifixions and hangings.

Like all bullies, it likes to taunt its victims. It did just that for years after Israel left Gaza, firing rockets every day into towns like Sderot or Netivot. No one who has dismissed these rockets as harmless homemade toys has ever had the guts to spend a few weeks in Sderot, scurrying from shelter to shelter. And, oh yes, it also built up an arsenal (supplied by Iran) of Grad missiles that certainly aren't anybody's toys.

Like all bullies, Hamas likes to make boastful threats. Its 1988 Covenant is replete with them. It threatens to destroy the State of Israel by violence and violence alone. It says it will never accept the work of conferences or peacemakers, and only jihad will solve its problems. Meanwhile, the Palestinians see their lives drained away in a culture that embraces death and martyrdom, their children exposed to a steady diet of military training and preparation for violent death as suicide bombers.

Even if the Palestinians want peace, Hamas won't let them have it, because Hamas knows best, and jihad "is the only solution." Don't believe me, read the Covenant. It likes nothing better than killing Jews, and the bigger bully in Teheran thinks that's a damn fine thing too. No one says a word, because the UN is dominated by the Islamic states, and the Western governments know where the oil comes from, and nobody likes the Jews much anyway. The people calling for the end of Israel while they march on the streets of London and Dublin aren't all Muslims by any means.

There can be no greater indication of this boastfulness than what has happened in recent days. Having taken a heavy battering from Israel, Hamas now proclaims a "great victory," and its supporters dance in the ruined streets of Gaza, drunk on their own demagoguery. For all its bluster, Hamas, like all bullies, is a coward at heart. Watch those films of Hamas gunmen dragging screaming children along with them to act as human shields, watch how they fire from behind the little ones, knowing no Israeli soldier will fire back. And even as they put their own children's lives at risk, they shout to high heaven that the Israelis are Nazis and the Jews are child-killers. This blatant pornography spreads through the Western media, and people never once ask "what does this look like from the other side," because they are addicted to the comforting news that the Yids are baby-killers as they'd always known, that they do poison wells, that no Christian child is safe come Passover. Hamas has become proficient at resurrecting the blood libel, just as its fighters use the Nazi salute, just as their predecessor in the 1930s and '40s, Haj Amin al-Husseini, conferred with Hitler about building death camps in Palestine and raised a division of SS troops in Bosnia to fight for the Reich.

We watch The Diary of Anne Frank on television, and some of us attend Holocaust Remembrance Day events, and others pay lip service to Jewish victimhood; we like our Jews emaciated and helpless under the SS boot. But the moment real Jews stand up and show themselves the stronger for all their deaths, it awakens an atavistic fear, and people recoil from them. Jews in uniform, how unseemly. Jews beating the bully, how unheard of. Jews with their own state, what upstarts.



IN MY home country of Ireland, we glamorize the great nationalist heroes who rebelled against the bullying forces of imperial Britain in the uprising of Easter Sunday 1916. In France, they venerate the heroes of the Resistance against the occupying forces of Nazi Germany. In Spain, they have not ceased to heap praise on those who fought against the forces of fascist bullies and lost. To stand up against an enemy bent on your destruction is everywhere counted an act of bravery. But not when it comes to Israel. In 1948 and 1967 and 1973 and 2006, Israel fought off overwhelming forces who made no secret of their plans for an imminent massacre of the Jews. But nobody now seems to care, no one lauds the courage the Israelis displayed, and no one praises the extraordinary restraint they showed in victory.

In a bizarre reversal of all their commitment to human rights and the struggle of men and women for independence and self-determination, the European Left has chosen again and again to side with the bullies and to condemn a small nation struggling to survive in a hostile neighborhood. It is all self-contradictory: The Left supports gay rights, yet attacks the only country in the Middle East where gay rights are enshrined in law. Hamas makes death the punishment for being gay, but "we are all Hamas now." Iran hangs gays, but it is praised as an agent of anti-imperialism, and allowed to get on with its job of stoning women and executing dissidents and members of religious minorities. If UK Premier Gordon Brown swore to wipe France from the face of the earth, he would become a pariah among nations. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad threatens to do that to Israel and is invited to speak to the UN General Assembly

Israel guarantees civil liberties to all its citizens, Jew or Arab alike, but it is dubbed "an apartheid state"; Hamas, ever the bully, kills its opponents and denies the rest the most basic rights, but we march on behalf of Hamas. The Left prefers the bully because the bully represents a finger in the face of the establishment? Almost no one on the Left has any understanding of militant Islam. Their politics is a politics of gesture, where wearing a keffiyeh is cool but understanding its symbolism is too much effort even for intellectuals.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292940460&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
 

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