ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

@ican711nm,

I think that's about as much in a nutshell as anybody can put it Ican. But sadly, the anti-Israel crowd either ignores that or refuses to believe it or tries to make this a lot more complicated than it has to be.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

ican wrote:

Quote:

Subsequently in 1948 and thereafter Palestinian Arab and their supporters attempted to steal Israel.

What a bunch of crap! Ever since 1948, Palestinians lost land to the Jews. You people are deplorable; ignore all the facts and figures as much as you wish, but your BS on these threads only shows your bigotry and ignorance.

You have the audacity to call use "anti-Israelis," but the facts are we are against the apartheid state of Israel against the Palestinians. Where did you people study about "democracy?"

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@cicerone imposter,

"What a bunch of crap! Ever since 1948, Palestinians lost land to the Jews. You people are deplorable; ignore all the facts and figures as much as you wish, but your BS on these threads only shows your bigotry and ignorance. "

That is a flat-out lie. Israel essentially did not set a foot outside its boundaries until the '67 war, when it was attacked by its neighbors. It then took areas as prizes war, or moved into territories (not states) not owned by anyone.

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@Advocate,

Which border are you talking about, exactly? That you would even tell us that the Palestinians lost land from the war is very telling; you're a goddam liar.

How do you sleep at nights? You're so screwed up, nothing provided as evidence on these threads will change your mindset. Even the Israel Attorney General said the land grab by the Israelis are illegal. Hopeless.

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I really find it to be hilarious, that the same right-wingers who constantly hate on the UN, recommend it's destruction, bemoan our involvement in it, and claim that we are not bound in any way by any decision it may or may not make,

Turn right around and use it as justification for Israel's existence.

What's it going to be, Reactionaries? Is the UN a valid world governing body, or not? Do they have the right to re-apportion land that belongs to others? Can they legally make decisions that are within the US?

Hilarious contradictions

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

The UN in 1947 passed its resolution recommending a two-state solution in Palestine.

Israel, one of the two states recommended by the UN, declared its independence in 1948.

Subsequently in 1948 and thereafter Palestinian Arabs and their supporters attempted to steal Israel.

In the process of stopping the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters from stealing Israel in 1948, Israel stole some Palestinian land.

In the process of stopping the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters from stealing Israel after 1948, Israel stole some more Palestinian land, some of which they returned.

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In 1947, Britain asked the UN to recommend a solution to its Palestine problem.

In 1947, the UN recommended a two state solution: one for the Palestinian Arabs and one for the Palestinian Jews..

In 1948, Britain abandoned Palestine.

In 1948, Israel declared its independence.

Subsequently in 1948 and thereafter Palestinian Arabs and their supporters attempted to steal Israel.

In the process of stopping the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters from stealing Israel in 1948, Israel stole some Palestinian land.

In the process of stopping the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters from stealing Israel after 1948, Israel stole some more Palestinian land, some of which they returned.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I really find it to be hilarious, that the same right-wingers who constantly hate on the UN, recommend it's destruction, bemoan our involvement in it, and claim that we are not bound in any way by any decision it may or may not make,

Turn right around and use it as justification for Israel's existence.

What's it going to be, Reactionaries? Is the UN a valid world governing body, or not? Do they have the right to re-apportion land that belongs to others? Can they legally make decisions that are within the US?

Hilarious contradictions

Cycloptichorn

I believe this is a very admirable insight. But, from the perspective of one secular Jew (myself), I would say that I appreciated Patrick Moynihan's response the the UN resolution "that Zionism is racism." And, I did not appreciate the UN accepting that resolution, since it did bring Israel into existence only a few decades earlier. So, it seems that the UN may have two personas?

However, perhaps not being aware of the pre-WWII history of anti-Semitism, there were many people in respectable countries that subscribed to the Czar's forgery of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Yes, many people were quite the paranoids, thinking that Jews were meeting and plotting to take over the world prior to the Final Solution. That might be part of the explanation why some otherwise decent people seemed relieved when the smoke of WWII cleared, and far fewer Jews remained in Europe. That relief may have been followed by shame. That shame may have been followed by the British realizing that if that canard against Jews should ever die, then it might end if Jews had a homeland, so people would not think it made sense that Jews were plotting to take over their respective country.

In other words, Israel might have also been medicine for anti-Semites, and their obsession with Jews being up to possibly no good, in their respective country. So, since 1948, few accuse Jews of plotting to take over their respective country, since people see that many Jews are involved with a pro-Israel concern, aside from being citizens in the country they are citizens of.

So, in my opinion, human nature being what it is, if Israel ever ceased to exist, the old canard against Jews that live in one's country will re-emerge. Why? Jews are achievers, and many people do not like competition.

But, similar to the resolution the "Zionism is racism," I believe the UN also functions for many nations as a mutual admiration society for their displeasure with the U.S. I say, displeasure, I really believe "sour grapes," in that most countries realize that if it was not for the UN, their respective country would be a back-alley for the world, and on the stage of the UN, their country can pretend to be of some importance. So, I do give credence that some conservatives may not care for the UN, since it treats unequal (aka, developing nations) as equals to developed nations.

There is also the whole thing going on, I believe, about pandering to Arab oil producers, since people in most countries like to drive cars. It really is a shame then that Israel had the bad luck to be located in the middle of those oil producting nations. Yes, most countries are self-serving, only 60 years after the Nazis made anti-Semitism shameful, I believe.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Israel was attacked by Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and it took as its "prizes of war" parts of Palestine.

Whether or not they were settled by people who were non-combatant. And since then, they have treated the palestinians as Untermenschen. There's your problem.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Quote:

In other words, Israel might have also been medicine for anti-Semites, and their obsession with Jews being up to possibly no good, in their respective country. So, since 1948, few accuse Jews of plotting to take over their respective country, since people see that many Jews are involved with a pro-Israel concern, aside from being citizens in the country they are citizens of.

Now there's some twisted logic. Treat the discrimination against the Jews by stealing lands from other people, essentially discriminating against them to prevent the ignorants of the world from discriminating against Jews.

You prevent discrimination against any group by being honest, by speaking out against ignorance and discrimination.

Following your logic, the US would be pretty much owned by Native Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, ... .

1 Reply

@McTag,

Your statement is false. The Jews have treated the Pals surrounding them as the enemy, which they are. They are constantly attacking the settlers, killing them whenever possible. But, to you, I guess it is terrible that the Jews defend themselves and, indeed, occasionally seek retribution.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

I think that's about as much in a nutshell as anybody can put it Ican

Ican is pretty much the whole nut. He thinks that by stamping his feet and repeating the same old nonsense, he can turn it into the truth. This is thinking typical of conservative/Republicans.

You're pretty damn good at this yourself, Foxy. And when you get to that point where even you can't standing the incongruity, you zone out.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:

In other words, Israel might have also been medicine for anti-Semites, and their obsession with Jews being up to possibly no good, in their respective country. So, since 1948, few accuse Jews of plotting to take over their respective country, since people see that many Jews are involved with a pro-Israel concern, aside from being citizens in the country they are citizens of.

Now there's some twisted logic. Treat the discrimination against the Jews by stealing lands from other people, essentially discriminating against them to prevent the ignorants of the world from discriminating against Jews.

You prevent discrimination against any group by being honest, by speaking out against ignorance and discrimination.

Following your logic, the US would be pretty much owned by Native Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Mexicans, ... .

If you are not aware of the belief in Judeophobia, pre-WWII you just need to acquaint yourself with that belief in Europe and America. In other words, the belief that Jews were "plotting" made the Nazi's anti-Semitic propaganda sound to many as just a willingness to verbalize the truth. My point is that without a homeland for Jews, this aberration will resurface, I believe, since much of western man has a deep seated xenophobia, based on the belief that Europeans have a grand heritage dating back to wandering tribes that plotzed down in some European country. That basically is the source of anti-Semitism in Europe; the belief that Jews should be perennial outsiders in any European country.

Call my logic "twisted"; however I believe it is correct.

And, you should not make reference to "the ignorants of the world," since that really refers to a good part of the world's bell curve. Without such "ignorants" every country's respective popular notions would have no credence, yet they do.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
I think that's about as much in a nutshell as anybody can put it Ican

Ican is pretty much the whole nut. He thinks that by stamping his feet and repeating the same old nonsense, he can turn it into the truth. This is thinking typical of conservative/Republicans.

You're pretty damn good at this yourself, Foxy. And when you get to that point where even you can't standing the incongruity, you zone out.

I don't think Ican is a nut at all. He expresses himself differently than I would and at times I cringe because I know that his way of expressing himself will evoke extra hateful contempt from those who do not even want to consider what he is saying. But he's got it pretty right in my perspective. He certainly is right that it is not the Jews who have attempted to exterminate the Palestinians, but since 1948, the Palestinians and those who have orchestrated the Palestinian's misery have been attempting to exterminate the Jews.

He is also correct that if the Palestinians would stop attempting to frighten, injure, maim, or murder Israelis, that they would have absolutely nothing to fear from Israel.

Foofie is correct that throughout their recorded history, the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews have been discriminated against, attacked, oppressed, and driven out of places. As no people have ever endured such a horror as the Holocaust--a horror that many good people sat back and allowed to happen because they didn't want to make waves--the international community of 'good people' via the United Nations tried to help by creating one tiny place on the planet where the Jews could be themselves and chart their own destiny and not be subject to anti-semitism or concern that sooner or later they would again be ostracized or oppressed just because they were Jews.

Israel has had help yes, but it has created a shining island of democracy, tolerance, and prosperity within a sea of religious fanaticism, racism, and poverty perpetuated by people who do not believe in personal freedoms or individual worth.

If the Palestinians and those who use them for their own prurient interests should stop trying to exterminate Israelis and destroy Israel; if they stopped attacking and/or threatening to attack and/or using suicide bombers and/or throwing out regular inflammatory rhetoric; if they removed the goal of exterminating Israel from their websites and policies. . . . .

. . . .if they did that and Israel did not then become a decent neighbor to the Palestinians, then I would have issues with Israel.

Until then, Israel has every right to do whatever it must to keep others from terrifying, injuring, maiming, and murdering Israeli citizens.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

If you are not aware of the belief in Judeophobia,

I'm fully aware of this and much more, Foofie. It is simply nonsensical to hope to right the wrongs by hiding a group away to prevent them from being discriminated against. It is doubly wrong to take from others their lands in order to salve guilt feelings.

Quote:

And, you should not make reference to "the ignorants of the world," since that really refers to a good part of the world's bell curve. Without such "ignorants" every country's respective popular notions would have no credence, yet they do.

Tell me about it. You yourself have put forward a number of these old canards about the USA that were part and parcel of your grade school propaganda.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Your and ican and advocates logic is so screwed up that it makes no sence to try to reason with any of you. Your brains are incased in a container of lead and nothing gets through to you. You believe that any murder commited by the jewish state is justified because the parnoia of the jewish state demands it. You cant see that the Jewish state is as Natzie as germany ever was. Closed minds cant be reasoned with.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
If you are not aware of the belief in Judeophobia,

I'm fully aware of this and much more, Foofie. It is simply nonsensical to hope to right the wrongs by hiding a group away to prevent them from being discriminated against. It is doubly wrong to take from others their lands in order to salve guilt feelings.

No. It is not "simply nonsensical" to allow a group to stay away from those that have historically tormented them. Like I would not want to sit next to you in a classroom. That would be my choice. Jews giving western civilization monotheism, their bible, and many other innovations, I do not think they need to be measured by the same rule of thumb that much of the rest of the world gets measured by. Not that they are superior/special, etc., just that some may have developed a "Gentile shyness," so to speak, for two millenia of dealing with close minded Gentiles.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Quote:

"...close minded Gentiles.

She hasn't the faintest what she just admitted to. "Close minded," indeed! LOL

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Until then, Israel has every right to do whatever it must to keep others from terrifying, injuring, maiming, and murdering Israeli citizens.

An - what I think - interesting aside:

I know that the BBC is broadly accused by the more right part of US-members here as a "liberal" and "anti-Israel" media.

Now, the BBC is being accused by all an everyone (that's from the governing 'Socialists' over the Liberal-Democrads and Conservatives to the rightish Scottish Nationalists because they don't want to air the Gaza Emergency Appeal [by the Britsih Red Cross, Save the Children, Oxfam and more charities]; the main other British tv-companies (ITV, Channel 4 and Five) do so.

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@rabel22,

rabel, I think I have read more on modern Israel; i.e. that which the UN established in the 1940's to present, as well as ancient Israel, than I have read the history of any other place other than the United States. I think your point of view and comparison with Nazi Germany is way over the top and not in character with your usually more reasoned and informed stance on things. I think you cannot support it with any evidence of substance and not even with reasoned opinion by anybody who is not among those who desire the extermination of Israel. I won't presume to say what that says about you, but it certainly does not make me the bigot.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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