15
   

ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:41 am
McG, the email did not say that the Hezbollah was using the UN as shields. He said that there was fighting in the area between Hezbollah and Israel.

The fact remains that 90% of the killings in Lebanon have been civilians. That means only 10% have been Hezbollah fighters. Israel must have a bad aim to miss the Hezbollah fighters 90% of the time hiding among the Lebanese citizens.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:44 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
There was no promise of cease fire. There was the offer of a short suspension of air attacks to give civilians time to leave the area. It would be ludicrous for Israel to announce, however, that its ground forces would not have air support if attacked and they quite gallantly informed the enemy that the ground force would not be left unprotected.



Israel called the 48-hour halt under U.S. pressure. So since it's not their idea ...
Quote:
In a second airstrike around the port city of Tyre, Israel accidentally killed a Lebanese soldier when it hit a car that it believed was carrying a senior Hezbollah official, the Israeli army said. Lebanese security officials said the soldier was killed by a rocket strike from a pilotless drone aircraft.

The Israeli army justified the action, saying the leader believed to have been in the car was a threat to Israel. Instead, the car was carrying a Lebanese army officer and soldiers.

"They were not the targets and we regret the incident," the army said.


The issue was not WHY Israel called the cease fire but the fact that it did.

Again, if you can show me any war that has ever been fought in which the 100% innocent have not been killed, in which accidents have not happened, in which mistakes were not made, I'll rescind my opinion that this stuff happens whenever there is war. That is what makes war so terrible and so immoral and so indefensible.

And yet if it is your country/civilians/shops/schools/homes being shelled by 90 to 100+ rockets every day, what do you do to stop it? Especially when the UN resolutions to date have been absolutelly 100% ineffective in preventing it and the UN isn't doing anything to stop it and in fact is criticizing you?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:45 am
Foxfyre wrote:
3. Why have the terrorists not moved their women and children out of harms way, especially when they are firing rockets knowing full well there will be return fire?


I'm only answering to this.

It clearly shows, you never have been at a place, during a war or close to a war region and a place near a conflict:

a) some people don't have the money to go away,
b) some people love their home, their native town, their region, their land, their own place.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:50 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
3. Why have the terrorists not moved their women and children out of harms way, especially when they are firing rockets knowing full well there will be return fire?


I'm only answering to this.

It clearly shows, you never have been at a place, during a war or close to a war region and a place near a conflict:

a) some people don't have the money to go away,
b) some people love their home, their native town, their region, their land, their own place.


The Hezbollah terrorists have the means to obtain thousands of rockets. Are you going to tell me those men are so stupid or incapable that they could not fire there rockets from places where women and children aren't? That real men would not move the women and children out of the way? Give me a break. If they don't give a damn about their women and kids, which appears to be the case, I see that as despicable. Let's be a little bit realistic about this okay?

And I think anybody throwing stone who can't or won't address all the questions asked about Israel and Hezbollah's behavior has no moral authority to criticize either.

So Walter, it's your country being shelled. Nobody presumes to stop it for you. So what do you do?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:53 am
According to Israelian sources - this has been published, was on tv and in the print media - the rockets were fired from "close to an apartment block which looks similar to the one bombed".
(The army spokesperson then showed a photo of blocks.)

They all look similar there.
Cars, too.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:55 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
According to Israelian sources - this has been published, was on tv and in the print media - the rockets were fired from "close to an apartment block which looks similar to the one bombed".
(The army spokesperson then showed a photo of blocks.)

They all look similar there.
Cars, too.


So what do you do if you're Israel? Who do you look to to defend you other than yourself? What do you do to protect your own women and children and stop up to 100 and more rockets being fired into your civilian neighborhoods every day?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:57 am
Well, I could show you a plan (actually two) where the US-Army had had their nuclear missiles in Germany.

Houses, apartments and land was rather cheap around those places.
(Nowadays, new aprtment blocks have been built there.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 09:04 am
Foxfyre wrote:

So what do you do if you're Israel? Who do you look to to defend you other than yourself? What do you do to protect your own women and children and stop up to 100 and more rockets being fired into your civilian neighborhoods every day?


I'm not living there. And actually, I couldn't imagine to live in such a state.

You see, having lived 40 years close to the "Iron Curtain" was formative. Especially, when you grew up in country with such a history and in a family which had lostz 70% of its members due to wars within a period of 40 years.

"Defend" doesn't mean for me "attack", an antique view, I know.
But again, I'm influenced by Christianity, which I can't deny.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 09:05 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, I could show you a plan (actually two) where the US-Army had had their nuclear missiles in Germany.

Houses, apartments and land was rather cheap around those places.
(Nowadays, new aprtment blocks have been built there.)


Wholly different thing. What do you do if you are Israel and your civilian neighborhoods are being shelled? How do you protect your women and children? Nobody is lifting a finger to help you.

Until the anti-Israel camp is willing to address that, again I say there is no moral authority to criticize Israel for defending tiself.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 09:33 am
Quote:
Are you going to tell me those men are so stupid or incapable that they could not fire there rockets from places where women and children aren't?


This has got to be the number one ironic statement of all time after Israelis just killed at least 34 children in one day.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 09:36 am
Linked from drudge:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html


Quote:

The Melbourne man who smuggled the shots out of Beirut and did not wish to be named said he was less than 400m from the block when it was obliterated.

"Hezbollah came in to launch their rockets, then within minutes the area was blasted by Israeli jets," he said.

"Until the Hezbollah fighters arrived, it had not been touched by the Israelis. Then it was totally devastated.


Or, in plain English, the hezbullies pick yet another apartment building, the residents of which to make into "martyrs", whether they had any desire to become martyrs or not.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 09:40 am
revel wrote:
Quote:
Are you going to tell me those men are so stupid or incapable that they could not fire there rockets from places where women and children aren't?


This has got to be the number one ironic statement of all time after Israelis just killed at least 34 children in one day.


Read Gunga's post Revel. And then at least have the integrity to answer. It's your women and children being shelled indiscriminately by up to and more than 100 Hezbollah rockets every day. What do you do about it? The rockets are being fired from launchers deliberately placed in residential neighborhoods where the terrorists know any retaliation will endanger women and children. What do you do?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 09:56 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
From today's The Guardian (page 19/ online version)
Quote:




http://i7.tinypic.com/21jw3uf.jpg
....

Terrorism has always been extraordinarily difficult to define, but the American approach lacks any pretence at objectivity, thus making the term utterly meaningless. Used in this way, terrorism becomes simply "political violence of which we disapprove". The answer, of course, must not be to abandon any attempt to distinguish between right and wrong in the use of force. There need to be standards if we are to prevent the free-for-all of violence without limit. But these standards must be disinterested, legitimate and robust. As it happens, most of what we need is adequately provided for in international humanitarian law. Numerous treaties and judgments from the Geneva conventions onwards set out quite detailed rules governing the use of force, including the principles of proportionality and civilian immunity.

Under international law, there can be no doubt that many of the actions carried out by Hizbullah and Hamas constitute war crimes that must be punished. The reason it has been disregarded for the purposes of fighting terrorism is that, rather inconveniently for the governments concerned, it applies to states as well as non-state groups. Accepting it would leave them open to unwanted scrutiny and possibly even prosecution for war crimes of their own. In the case of the Israeli government, it isn't hard to see why. Israeli doctrine eschews the principle of proportionality in favour of massive retaliation, as has been amply demonstrated in Lebanon and Gaza.

Despite Israel's protestations that it is doing everything it can to avoid civilian casualties, it is clear that its military strategy is aimed at maximising the suffering of the Lebanese people as a whole. This was declared quite openly on day one of the campaign, when Israel's chief of staff, General Dan Halutz, promised to "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years", and confirmed again yesterday with the horrific slaughter at Qana. The approach is identical to the one taken in similar operations in 1996 and 1993, when Yitzhak Rabin admitted: "The goal of the operation is to get the southern Lebanese population to move northward, hoping that this will tell the Lebanese government something about the refugees, who may get as far north as Beirut." Populations will move like this only if they are in fear of their lives.

The same applies to Gaza, where the pretence at discrimination is even thinner and Palestinian civilians are being subjected to a brutal siege and acts of violence that have no military justification. As in Lebanon, the intention is to force civilians to turn on the militias by inflicting as much pain and suffering as the Israeli government thinks it can get away with. What is this if it is not terrorism? It is certainly a war crime. So let's hear no more hypocritical utterances about the evils of terrorism from Bush and Blair. Not until they are able to speak with genuine moral authority by condemning all forms of illegal violence, irrespective of who commits them.

· David Clark is a former Labour government adviser


I found David Clark's appeal (above) to "moral authority" and "the established principles of international law to be vague, almost meaningless in its repeated references to unenforced (and unenforcable) principles of supposed international law, and utterly without grounding in the realities of human history and even the recent history of his own country. Exquisite hand wringing by a commentator safely on the sidelines, but without any practical utility to those directly involved or even for those who might influence events.

Clark's repeated references to his rather inflated version of international law and its applicability to Hizbullah belie the fact that there is no extant mechanism with which to enforce it on such groups. Even the mighty International Criminal Court, so favored by the Guardial and others of that ilk, has been utterly impotent in this matter. Clark sneers at the U.S. "War on Terrorism" without even acknowledging this rather obvious dilemma.

He also notes the rather obvious intent of the Israelis to motivate the Palestinian and Lebanese populations, who have either knowingly or at least passively accepted the Hizbollah and its rockets in their midst, to recognize the sosts and risks to themselves. He equates this with terrorism (an analogy I accept) and proposes political action against Blair and Bush for supporting it, but proposes nothing whatever against the Hizbollah terrorists who assembled the rockets aand launched them from villages in Gaza and Lebanon, or even the Syrian & Iranian governments that supplied them. This is selective moral blindness of the first rank. It is entirely inappropriate from one who otherwise assumes the exclusive access to the lofty heights of legal and moral principle.

This screed was merely vain, self-important posturing on the part of an observer who shows little understanding of either history or the realities beyond the facile "principles" he casts about so willingly.

Clark also narrowly defines the causus bella here as the abduction of the Israeli troops, ignoring the fact that continued escalation would surely follow such acts if they were not responded to and, of course, the subsequent rocket attacks on Israeli cities. He also notes the evil
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:03 am
Foxfyre wrote:
revel wrote:
Quote:
Are you going to tell me those men are so stupid or incapable that they could not fire there rockets from places where women and children aren't?


This has got to be the number one ironic statement of all time after Israelis just killed at least 34 children in one day.


Read Gunga's post Revel. And then at least have the integrity to answer. It's your women and children being shelled indiscriminately by up to and more than 100 Hezbollah rockets every day. What do you do about it? The rockets are being fired from launchers deliberately placed in residential neighborhoods where the terrorists know any retaliation will endanger women and children. What do you do?


Another way to look at it...

Suppose you're peacefully raking leaves in your own yard, and a neighbor starts shooting at you and your family from his yard. You draw your own 44 and start returning fire in self defense, and the neighbor grabs one of HIS kids and, holding the kid in front of him, goes on shooting at you and your family. Suppose also that there is no reasonable place to run to or hide.

Are you going to cease the effort to protect your own family because you're worried about hitting the lunatic neighbor and HIS kid??
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:12 am
Yesterday, in response to one of George's posts, I stated my position on moral authority in cases like this and, in my opinion, it rests neither on history or on any circumstances other than the situation as it exists.

Whatever either side does in war, an immorality will be the result. There is no such thing as a moral war as war by definition is ugly, hateful, destructive, obscene, and indefensible. But this fact does not extrapolate into any kind of absolute that a people/nation should not participate in one under any circumstances.

In Gunga's analogy, no you don't shoot at the neighbor and his kid if you and yours are in no imminent danger. But if you have no way of protecting your own without taking him out, you take the risk hoping beyond hope that you'll hit him and not the kid. Even if you have the option of ducking and hiding rather than returning fire, how long is it reasonable to think that is any kind of life?

The people of Israel are in imminent danger from an enemy who has no concern for women and children of either their adversary or their own. Some think it is wrong that Israel defends itself effectively. The David Clark's of the world even go so far as to think it isn't fair that one defends himself effectively.

Precisous few have condemned Hezbollah in any way for their violation of international law. Yet by almost any other standard applied, Israel is the good guy and Hezbollah is the bad guy in this fight.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:15 am
Thanks, George.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:39 am
Interesting...we'll have to see what else gets reported on this.



Quote:
IDF: Qana building fell hours after strike

"The attack on the structure in the Qana village took place between midnight and one in the morning. The gap between the timing of the collapse of the building and the time of the strike on it is unclear," Brigadier General Amir Eshel, Head of the Air Force Headquarters told journalists at the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv, following the incidents at Qana.

Eshel and the head of the IDF's Operational Branch, Major General Gadi Eisnkot said the structure was not being attacked when it collapsed, at around 8:00 in the morning.

The IDF believes that Hizbullah explosives in the building were behind the explosion that caused the collapse.

Another possibility is that the rickety building remained standing for a few hours, but eventually collapsed. "It could be that inside the building, things that could eventually cause an explosion were being housed, things that we could not blow up in the attack, and maybe remained there, Brigadier General Eshel said.

"I'm saying this very carefully, because at this time I don't have a clue as to what the explanation could be for this gap," he added.

Meanwhile in Lebanon it is being reported that the number of those killed in the collapse of the structure climbed to 60.



All targets struck accurately


Eshel said that an additional attack took place at 7:30 in the morning, but added that other buildings were targeted. "This was an attack on three buildings 460 meters away from the structure we are talking about. Four bombs were dropped and all of them are documented by the planes' cameras. They all struck their targets. In addition, we carried out a filming sortie that photographed the village during the afternoon showing that the three targeted buildings we struck. We have verification of strikes on the building and that the bombs reached their targets," Eshel said.

"An attack that took place at two in the morning struck two targets, both of them 400 meters away from the building (that collapsed). They were also destroyed. The attack between 12 and 1 a.m. struck the area of the affected house, and there were accurate strikes on the target. We are asking the question - what happened between 1 in the morning and 8 in the morningÂ… we understand this building was attacked between 12 and 1 in the morning, seven hours before it was seriously damaged," he said.

Brigadier General Eshel explained that "since the start of fighting in Lebanon 150 rockets from a very high number of rocket launchers have been fired from the village and its surrounding areas, at a number of sites in the State of Israel. Within the village itself we have located a diverse range of activities connected to firing of rockets, beginning from forces commanding this operation - because such an operation needs ongoing command to direct it - and logistical sites that serve this end."

"From this village rockets are fired almost every day across Israel. The operation carried out overnight is an extension of operations that didn't start last night but before, and during this night we struck a number of targets in the village. All of the targets are being meticulously sifted," Eshel added.


Source
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:44 am
Brand X writes
Quote:
Interesting...we'll have to see what else gets reported on this.


Well, even if there is a great deal to it, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for much to be reported on it. I don't see a whole lot being reported that makes Hezbollah look bad in any way or that exhonerates Israel in any way. This has become a propaganda war as much as a shooting war, and the Hezbollah side is favored in that because Israel has so few true allies.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:47 am
Foxfyre wrote:
What do you do about it? The rockets are being fired from launchers deliberately placed in residential neighborhoods where the terrorists know any retaliation will endanger women and children. What do you do?
You keep asking this question. Simple answer, agree to ceasefire and prisoner exchange.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:50 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
What do you do about it? The rockets are being fired from launchers deliberately placed in residential neighborhoods where the terrorists know any retaliation will endanger women and children. What do you do?
You keep asking this question. Simple answer, agree to ceasefire and prisoner exchange.


How many cease fires does Israel need to agree to however? They've agreed to cease fires again and again and its still them being shelled and suffering other terrorist attacks from neighboring territories. Israel agrees to a cease fire and Hezbollah wins and all terrorists organzations everywhere cheer and are emboldened. Israel doesn't agree to a cease fire and that's just fine with Hezbollah as they can keep pointing to Israel as part of the great Satan.

If I was Israel there is no way in hell I would agree to a cease fire before Hezbollah surrenders or before I have an iron clad guarantee from the UN that they'll take Hezbollah out if the cease fire is not honored and Hezbollah will be immediately disarmed according to the UN's own resolution.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Israel's Reality - Discussion by Miller
THE WAR IN GAZA - Discussion by Advocate
Israel's Shame - Discussion by BigEgo
Eye On Israel/Palestine - Discussion by IronLionZion
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 10/14/2024 at 11:20:17