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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 04:06 am
revel wrote:
The difference between cartoons and real images of war, gunga....


The idea of somebody starting an aggressive and unprovoked war, using their own civilian population as human shields while firing rockets and missiles into the victim country, and then trying to use their own civilian deaths brought about by their own actions as some sort of an argument that the victims, who are merely tryinbg to protect themselves, are a bunch of barbarians, is pretty nearly unbelievable.

The amazing thing is that anybody feels sorry for any of them.

Then again, most people assume that the Nuremberg tribunals which followed WWII were about the holocaust and specific war crimes on the parts of the German nazis. That is most definitely not the case. The main thing the nazi leaders were being tried for was the planning and initiation of an aggressive war.

Walter Rockler notes that

Quote:

"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime, it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

At Nuremberg, the United States and Britain pressed the prosecution of Nazi leaders for planning and initiating aggressive war. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, the head of the American prosecution staff, asserted "that launching a war of aggression is a crime and that no political or economic situation can justify it."


http://www.counterpunch.org/rockler.html

Amongst the things which cannot justify launching an aggressive war as the hezbullies have done, is the desire to gain the release of 400 convicted terrorists and murderers.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:05 am
And despite the officially announced 48-hour halt in raids, Israeli air force strikes southern Lebanon again and again ...

Don't trust anybody. Eveybody acts worse than a criminal in war.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:06 am
revel wrote:
The facts are that civilians are (or were before the cease fire) the ones getting the most damage and Hezbollah seems to be unaffected. Are the Israelis just bad shots or incredibly unlucky in being able to kill Hezbollah rather than women and children?



It's called "lying"; the hezbullies are lying about how much damage they are actually taking, which is a lot. This latest thing about staging a massacre of their own people, while not out of character for them, is basically a desparation act which they would not be engaging in if things were going well for them.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:13 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
And despite the officially announced 48-hour halt in raids, Israeli air force strikes southern Lebanon again and again ...


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

Quote:

Israel Radio also reported that Hezbollah rockets hit the northern town of Kiryat Shemona. No casualties were reported in the rocket attacks, the radio said.


I gave them ten to twelve hours, which was obviously more than they needed.

Israel is doing the world a huge favor here, basically a dirty job which somebody has to do.

Like I say, pretty much the ONLY Lebanese I can feel sorry for are the former Christian majority which are now living in exile.

The thing which seems obvious to me is that the hezbullies and their kin see Lebanon and Israel as a beginning and not as an end. When they get around to trying to take the United States, there will be nowhere else left on the planet for people not wishing to live under sharia law to try to emmigrate to.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:15 am
gungasnake wrote:
Like I say, pretty much the ONLY Lebanese I can feel sorry for are the former Christian majority which are now living in exile.


Do I get it right: you feel sorry for the Lebanese Christians in exile but NOT for those living in Lebanon?

Why?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:17 am
gungasnake wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
And despite the officially announced 48-hour halt in raids, Israeli air force strikes southern Lebanon again and again ...


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel


Yes, I saw tv videos about that this morning. Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:39 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Like I say, pretty much the ONLY Lebanese I can feel sorry for are the former Christian majority which are now living in exile.


Do I get it right: you feel sorry for the Lebanese Christians in exile but NOT for those living in Lebanon?

Why?



Because somehow or other over the last couple of decades, I've read at least one too many of these stories about "former Christian majorities" which have been driven out of their own countries.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 05:55 am
What irks me is the growing perception that Hezbollah is winning this fight, simply by surviving...An example is this Aussie newspaper report....

There are other reports I've seen recently touting Nasrallah as the "only Muslim ever to defeat Israel".

What is being reinforced here is that terrorism used in conjunction with a nearly omnipresent press works as an effective weapon for gaining political capital and meeting political objectives. The extremely powerful but far too blunt military power of nations like Israel, US, Britain, and Russia can be defeated by hit and run tactics and cowering behind the skirts of women and children. In the end, covert assasination may become the only effective weapon against such tactics but when these powerful nations engage in assassinations, they are again soundly condemned by the press.

Over the past year or so, I was bothered a little by reports of Israeli assasinations and attempted assassinations. However, I'm beginning to see the value of such tactics. Assassinations certainly would avoid tragedies like at Qana, and probably would have less media shelf-life.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 06:03 am
slkshock7 wrote:
What irks me is the growing perception that Hezbollah is winning this fight, simply by surviving...An example is this Aussie newspaper report....

There are other reports I've seen recently touting Nasrallah as the "only Muslim ever to defeat Israel".

What is being reinforced here is that terrorism used in conjunction with a nearly omnipresent press works as an effective weapon for gaining political capital and meeting political objectives. The extremely powerful but far too blunt military power of nations like Israel, US, Britain, and Russia can be defeated by hit and run tactics and cowering behind the skirts of women and children. In the end, covert assasination may become the only effective weapon against such tactics but when these powerful nations engage in assassinations, they are again soundly condemned by the press.

Over the past year or so, I was bothered a little by reports of Israeli assasinations and attempted assassinations. However, I'm beginning to see the value of such tactics. Assassinations certainly would avoid tragedies like at Qana, and probably would have less media shelf-life.


Agreed.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 06:16 am
gungasnake wrote:
Because somehow or other over the last couple of decades, I've read at least one too many of these stories about "former Christian majorities" which have been driven out of their own countries.


I still don't get it. Do you tell me, our (and my) support for Christian parishes and dioceses is going .... to what- and who-ever, those reports from people from our diocese, who work there, are fake as well as the people claiming to come from there etc etc?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 06:42 am
Rescue workers begin digging up bodies in Lebanon

Quote:
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Rescue workers began on Monday the gruesome task of digging up dozens of bodies from under the rubble of at least three villages in south Lebanon, taking advantage of a 48-hours suspension of Israeli air attacks.

Israel's three-week offensive in Lebanon has killed around 550 people, mostly civilians. Officials and security sources say there are scores of bodies under the rubble of destroyed houses in a cluster of villages near the border with Israel.

Lebanese Health Minister Mohammad Khalifeh put the number of unrecovered bodies at 200, which would take the death toll to 750 in Lebanon. Fifty-one Israelis have also been killed.

Civil defense workers were using a bulldozer to clear rubble from where around 30 civilians were believed buried under houses destroyed in an Israeli air strike in the village of Sreefa two weeks ago.

Other workers were trying to retrieve bodies in two nearby villages close to the Israeli border.

Israel on Monday morning began a 48-hour suspension of air strikes on south Lebanon after an air strike on the village of Qana killed at least 54 civilians.

But the army said it reserved the right to strike at Hizbollah rocket launchers, target the Shi'ite Muslim group's leaders or give air support to its ground operations.

The war erupted when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border attack on July 12.


"But the army said it reserved the right..." reminds me of one of Bush's tricks.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 07:02 am
revel wrote:
Rescue workers begin digging up bodies in Lebanon

Quote:
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Rescue workers began on Monday the gruesome task of digging up dozens of bodies from under the rubble of at least three villages in south Lebanon, taking advantage of a 48-hours suspension of Israeli air attacks.

<<<<snip>>>>>
But the army said it reserved the right to strike at Hizbollah rocket launchers, target the Shi'ite Muslim group's leaders or give air support to its ground operations.

The war erupted when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border attack on July 12.


"But the army said it reserved the right..." reminds me of one of Bush's tricks.


You would prefer the army to quietly allow Hezbollah to slaughter its own population with rockets and not retaliate? You seem to forget who began this fight...

And I have no idea what you mean by the Bush slam. Retaliation is not a "trick" neither when practiced by the Israelis, nor the Bush administration, nor the Kerry campaign.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 07:28 am
slkshock7 wrote:
revel wrote:
Rescue workers begin digging up bodies in Lebanon

Quote:
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Rescue workers began on Monday the gruesome task of digging up dozens of bodies from under the rubble of at least three villages in south Lebanon, taking advantage of a 48-hours suspension of Israeli air attacks.

<<<<snip>>>>>
But the army said it reserved the right to strike at Hizbollah rocket launchers, target the Shi'ite Muslim group's leaders or give air support to its ground operations.

The war erupted when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border attack on July 12.


"But the army said it reserved the right..." reminds me of one of Bush's tricks.


You would prefer the army to quietly allow Hezbollah to slaughter its own population with rockets and not retaliate? You seem to forget who began this fight...

And I have no idea what you mean by the Bush slam. Retaliation is not a "trick" neither when practiced by the Israelis, nor the Bush administration, nor the Kerry campaign.


So far very few Israelis have been killed compared to Lebanon. Even before the war, Hezbollah may have fired rockets but they didn't seem to kill very many people.

What I mean by trick is that last night (our time) it seemed like there was going to be at least 48 hours of cease fire, but it turned out that the Israelis said they reserve the right to conduct air campaign to help the ground effort...It reminded me when Bush signed on to the torture bill but then reserved the torture if they saw a need. Both was just something to sooth the public but in fact no concession at all. In other words, PR moves.

BTW-don't bother bringing up democrats to me at this time. I am just as disgusted with them as the republicans for sanctioning this slaughter against the Lebanese citizens and country.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 07:33 am
Israeli strikes resume after brief lull

But at least this one seems to be between the particulars rather than Israel just bombing Lebanese citizens to death.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 07:58 am
There was no promise of cease fire. There was the offer of a short suspension of air attacks to give civilians time to leave the area. It would be ludicrous for Israel to announce, however, that its ground forces would not have air support if attacked and they quite gallantly informed the enemy that the ground force would not be left unprotected.

The one thing that the anti-Israel side still will not address. They complain that Israel is taking far less collateral damage than is Lebanon. They won't admit that this is because Israel makes provisions for the protection of its citizens and it does not intentionally make its citizens military targets.

To me it is ludicrous to think Israel is somehow evil for doing the right thing by its people, while at the same time feeling no anger whatsoever at Hezbollah who deliberately puts their women and children at risk even to the point of making them necessary targets. (Necessary if the rocket launchers are going to be destroyed.)

Again, the anti-Israel people have no answer for what they would do if it was their stores, shops, homes, and streets being shelled by an enemy who doesn't care who gets killed. Then that same enemy intentionally uses their own women and children that they made into targets as propaganda tools. To me that is evil.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:21 am
There has been no proof offered that Hezbollah uses it's citizens as shield other than Israel/US just saying it is so. In fact the evidence seems to suggest that the opposite is true by the sheer fact that few Hazbollah fighters have been killed along with the citizens of Lebanon. If they were hiding among the citizens then they would be there when the bombs rain down on the Lebanese citizens and would get killed as well. So far it has mostly been (90%)been the citizens and not the fighters getting killed.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:28 am
Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'

Joel Kom, with files from Steven Edwards, CanWest News Service, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, July 27, 2006

The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.

The strike hit the UN observation post in the southern Lebanese village of El Khiam, killing Canadian Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener and three others serving as unarmed UN military observers in the area.

Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics.

"What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.

"The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.

"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It's a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he's seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages.

A Canadian Forces infantry officer with the Edmonton-based Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and the only Canadian serving as a UN military observer in Lebanon, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener was no stranger to fighting nearby.

The UN post, he wrote in the e-mail, afforded a view of the "Hezbollah static positions in and around our patrol Base."

"It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hezbollah has taken place in our area," he wrote, noting later it was too dangerous to venture out on patrols.

The e-mail appears to contradict the UN's claim there had been no Hezbollah activity in the vicinity of the strike.

The question of Hezbollah's infiltration of the area is significant because UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, speaking Tuesday just hours after the bombing, accused the Israelis of the "apparently deliberate targeting" of the base near Khiam in southern Lebanon.

A senior UN official, asked about the information contained in Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail concerning Hezbollah presence in the vicinity of the Khiam base, denied the world body had been caught in a contradiction.

"At the time, there had been no Hezbollah activity reported in the area," he said. "So it was quite clear they were not going after other targets; that, for whatever reason, our position was being fired upon.

"Whether or not they thought they were going after something else, we don't know. The fact was, we told them where we were. They knew where we were. The position was clearly marked, and they pounded the hell out of us."

Even if Hezbollah was not firing rockets at the time of the bombing, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail indicates they were using a terrorist tactic of purposely drawing out enemy forces near a neutral site, said retired Capt. Peter Forsberg, who did two UN tours between 1993 and 1995 during the Bosnian war.

The UN's limited mandate, meaning that its observers are unarmed and have few options, put the observers in a poor position, he said.

If indeed Israel was attempting to hit Hezbollah fighters in the area, it hasn't yet used the excuse to explain its actions because it wouldn't make it any less guilty in the world's eyes, Capt. Forsberg said.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:34 am
Lebanese army stops Israeli helicopters landing
30 Jul 2006 19:33:41 GMT
Source: Reuters


BEIRUT, July 30 (Reuters) - The Lebanese army opened fire on Israeli helicopters trying to land near a town in the Bekaa valley, preventing them from setting down, Lebanese security sources and witnesses said.

The four helicopters appeared to be trying to land Israeli soldiers near the town of Yammouni, they said.

The helicopters flew away before Israeli warplanes launched air raids on the area, the sources said.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:36 am
revel wrote:
There has been no proof offered that Hezbollah uses it's citizens as shield other than Israel/US just saying it is so. In fact the evidence seems to suggest that the opposite is true by the sheer fact that few Hazbollah fighters have been killed along with the citizens of Lebanon. If they were hiding among the citizens then they would be there when the bombs rain down on the Lebanese citizens and would get killed as well. So far it has mostly been (90%)been the citizens and not the fighters getting killed.


1. Article after article has been posted in this thread and elsewhere that supports the Hezbelloah (and other terrorist) tactics of using women and children as shields. And it isn't just Israel and the U.s. who knows this and is saying it. Why do you wish so hard to believe otherwise?

2. How do you tell the difference between a fighter/terrorist who wears no uniform and a civilian?

3. Why have the terrorists not moved their women and children out of harms way, especially when they are firing rockets knowing full well there will be return fire? Why are there no clearly military targets on the Hezbollah side as they fire 90 to 100 or more rockets at Israel every day?

4. If it is your country being shelled with 90 to 100 rockets every day, all aimed into civilian areas, not military targets, what do you do to defend yourself?

5. What convinces you that the Hezbollah are the good guys?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 08:40 am
Foxfyre wrote:
There was no promise of cease fire. There was the offer of a short suspension of air attacks to give civilians time to leave the area. It would be ludicrous for Israel to announce, however, that its ground forces would not have air support if attacked and they quite gallantly informed the enemy that the ground force would not be left unprotected.



Israel called the 48-hour halt under U.S. pressure. So since it's not their idea ...
Quote:
In a second airstrike around the port city of Tyre, Israel accidentally killed a Lebanese soldier when it hit a car that it believed was carrying a senior Hezbollah official, the Israeli army said. Lebanese security officials said the soldier was killed by a rocket strike from a pilotless drone aircraft.

The Israeli army justified the action, saying the leader believed to have been in the car was a threat to Israel. Instead, the car was carrying a Lebanese army officer and soldiers.

"They were not the targets and we regret the incident," the army said.
0 Replies
 
 

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