foxfyre wrote:It's pretty hard to accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing when there are between and one and two million Palestinian Arabs living happily and prosperously as full Israeli citizens in Israel. Has there been shady periods in Israel's past? Of course there has and I know nobody who has done much reading on the history who would deny that. Are all the Jews guilty of that? No they are not.
What the Zionists did through the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is establish a demographic majority of Jews in the areas they controlled right before their declaration of independence, and further cleansed those areas after the war broke out.
It goes without saying that "all the Jews" aren't guilty of that. Ethnic cleansing was perpetrated by the Zionist leadership in Palestine, however.
Quote:Have militant Arabs been plotting and contemplating and at various times attempting ethnic cleansing of the Jews since 1948? Yes they have. But somehow the anti-Israel, Palestinian sympathisers ignore that.
If there are any militant Arabs that think about and try to ethnically cleanse Jews since 1948, then they haven't been very successful. But so what? militant Arabs thinking about ethnically cleansing Jews do not justify the Zionists' ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
Quote:If past history was justification for modern atrocities, the Jews would be justified in trying to kill Germans--any Germans, men, women, and kids-- whenever or wherever they can. Does anybody think that would be a good thing? If Polish Jews were sneaking across the border to kidnap and kill German citizens or blow up markets or crowded busses or were regularly firing rockets into Germany trying to kill somebody, and Poland refused to do anything to stop it, would it not be appropriate for German to build walls to keep out Polish Jews or otherwise deal with the situation militarily?
But Germany is no longer the nation it was during the 1930's and 40's and Israel is no longer the nation it was many decades ago. No matter what grievances the Jews once had with Germany, those no longer exist. And the Jews are not retaliating against Germany for past sins. There would be no justification for the Jews to do so now.
Germany is no longer an oppressive ethnocentric state. It has problems with discrimination against its minorities, but its
raison d'etre is no longer a homeland for Aryans. Israel continues to be one, and in order to perpetuate that status it oppresses the Palestinian people. That is the difference between Germany and Israel.
Quote:There is no justification of any kind for Palestinians attempting to kill Israel men, women, and children whenever and wherever they can either. And if they were not, there would be no justification for Israel doing whatever it must to protect itself.
I agree with you. There is no justification of any kind for Palestinians attempting to kill Israeli men, women, and children, period. There is justification when the militants attack legitimate targets like the military personnel and conscripts.
The problem with violence as a means to achieve political ends is that it tends to promote the "might makes right" mentality. Might does not make right, necessarily. The problem with the Palestinian militant groups, from which most of their leadership have come, is that they've tended to become mired in militancy, with its bravura and its attendant glory to the detriment of prosaic and quotidian civil leadership.
Quote:Those who sympathise with the Palestinians but who can also show sympathy to Israel and who can appreciate who Israel is and what they have become are not those who are anti-Israel.
One can sympathize with Israel in that the Zionists created it as a response to late 19th to mid 20th century anti-semitism. That response was as hateful as the anti-semitism the Zionists were reacting against, however. This irony is hypocritical. With that said, the state's purpose has become obsolete.
As Gil Troy, writing for the Hagshama department of the World Zionist Organization asks rhetorically as he ruminates upon Israel's 60th anniversary,
"Has Zionism become irrelevant? In this golden age of liberal democracy, with Jews welcomed and thriving in so many Western countries, why do Jews need a Jewish state? American Jews and Canadian Jews, Australian Jews and Argentinean Jews feel so comfortable that the major threats to the Jewish future have become assimilation and intermarriage not anti-Semitism. But wasn't Israel created as a refuge for Jews who feared persecution not for those who feared being loved to death?" and then answers with admitted illogic,
"At its simplest the answer is circular: Jews need a Jewish state because Judaism always had Israel as a homeland," and "Beyond this existential, moral justification lies a more relevant, utilitarian argument. Even modern Jews who are happily acculturated in the lands of their birth need a Jewish state because, whether from near or from far, Israel provides the fullest expression of Jewish civilization in all its dimensions." What? That's Israel's
raison d'etre? Even "modern Jews" need Israel because it provides the fullest expression of Jewish civilization in all its dimensions? That's the justification for the existence of the necessarily oppressive and discriminatory Zionist state? Oy vey! I wonder how many of the world's Jews agree with Troy.
Quote:Those who understand and objectively consider the history from both sides are not anti-Israel.
I take it you include yourself with those who understand and objectively consider the history from both sides, what with your gross generalizations, lack of references, and assertions pulled from out of (well, you know where)?
Quote:Those who use only the history from one side to condemn Israel and the Jews, however, are anti-Israel and they seem to have an irrational hatred of Israel and the Jews. I don't pretend to understand that.
So then those who don't make gross generalizations the way you do; don't lack references the way you do, and don't pull assertions from out of you know where the way you do
seem to you to have an irrational hatred of Israel and "the Jews"? You
seem to be equating bullshit and bluster with love for Israel and "the Jews."
Quote:As Germany is a much different place with a much different government than is was in the 1930's and 1940's, so is Israel.
You're getting redundant. See my response to your third assertion.
Quote:Again, at such time as the Palestinian leadership will officially recognize Israel's right to exist and do whatever it must to stop the Palestinian terrorist from attempting ethnic cleaning of the Jews, then I will expect Israel to be a good neighbor and friend to the Palestinians. If they are not, then my criticism will be directed toward them in the harshest terms.
I must have missed something. When did the state of Israel appoint you as their spokesperson? Do they know of your predilection for ridiculous straw men arguments and pulling half-brained assertions from out of regions only you know about?
By any chance, are you related to ican?
