ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Note to Infrablue: Numerous members on this thread have already posted ample evidence disputing virtually every anti-Israeli allegation in your post, and I simply do not have the time and energy to post all that again. You are almost 100% misrepresenting what Israel is and what Israel is all about and/or your comments are non sequitor to the situation that currently exists. So lets agree to disagree.

You are not a people (i.e. definition 5 plural peoples : a body of persons that are united by a common culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, that typically have common language, institutions, and beliefs, and that often constitute a politically organized group Miriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary), you are an individual.

How do collective rights differ from individual rights except when a majority opinion is the best way to decide something?

The ample evidence that your supposed numerous members on this thread have posted amounts to "nuh-uh," and off handed dismissals because these members don't like the word 'ethnic cleansing' being applied to the Zionists.
Again you pull these assertions of yours from out of only you know where, saying that I am almost 100% misrepresenting what Israel is and what Israel is all about and/or your comments are non sequitur to the situation that currently exists, and providing nothing to back these assertions up. I refuse to agree to disagree with you. As long as you continue to post your ridiculous claims and assertions rest assured that I'll be around to expose them for what they are, the unsupported ramblings of an ethnocentrist sympathizer.

I second what InfraBlue said, above.

It's pretty hard to accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing when there are between and one and two million Palestinian Arabs living happily and prosperously as full Israeli citizens in Israel. Has there been shady periods in Israel's past? Of course there has and I know nobody who has done much reading on the history who would deny that. Are all the Jews guilty of that? No they are not.

Have militant Arabs been plotting and contemplating and at various times attempting ethnic cleansing of the Jews since 1948? Yes they have. But somehow the anti-Israel, Palestinian sympathisers ignore that.

If past history was justification for modern atrocities, the Jews would be justified in trying to kill Germans--any Germans, men, women, and kids-- whenever or wherever they can. Does anybody think that would be a good thing? If Polish Jews were sneaking across the border to kidnap and kill German citizens or blow up markets or crowded busses or were regularly firing rockets into Germany trying to kill somebody, and Poland refused to do anything to stop it, would it not be appropriate for German to build walls to keep out Polish Jews or otherwise deal with the situation militarily?

But Germany is no longer the nation it was during the 1930's and 40's and Israel is no longer the nation it was many decades ago. No matter what grievances the Jews once had with Germany, those no longer exist. And the Jews are not retaliating against Germany for past sins. There would be no justification for the Jews to do so now.

There is no justification of any kind for Palestinians attempting to kill Israel men, women, and children whenever and wherever they can either. And if they were not, there would be no justification for Israel doing whatever it must to protect itself.

Those who sympathise with the Palestinians but who can also show sympathy to Israel and who can appreciate who Israel is and what they have become are not those who are anti-Israel. Those who understand and objectively consider the history from both sides are not anti-Israel. Those who use only the history from one side to condemn Israel and the Jews, however, are anti-Israel and they seem to have an irrational hatred of Israel and the Jews. I don't pretend to understand that. As Germany is a much different place with a much different government than is was in the 1930's and 1940's, so is Israel.

Again, at such time as the Palestinian leadership will officially recognize Israel's right to exist and do whatever it must to stop the Palestinian terrorist from attempting ethnic cleaning of the Jews, then I will expect Israel to be a good neighbor and friend to the Palestinians. If they are not, then my criticism will be directed toward them in the harshest terms.

Until then, Israel has ever right to do whatever it must to protect its own citizens from those who want them dead.

There are many religious jews and people of good character, within the country and without, who are horrified by what Israel is doing in their name.

And many of those too, recognise that it is ultimately counter-productive.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/21/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast

Israeli soldier fires at blindfolded, handcuffed protester.

McT, According to Fox, they all deserve to die, because they're all potential terrorists. That's the only way Jews can be "safe" in Israel, and protect themselves.

According to CI, it is okay to say any stupid thing about Fox since telling the truth doesn't matter at all.

Quit the BS, Fox. It's your position that the Israelis have a right to protect themselves no matter how many innocent Palestinians are killed and maimed, because they don't "target" innocent people.

Quit the BS CI. You cannot find any post of mine anywhere in any place on any thread on any board that even comes close to that. Does it make you feel like a big man or more important or feel more intelligent to say hurtful or stupid stuff about people? I don't do that to you or anybody.

Fox wrote: * My response in red

To McTag: You did ask me to explain unwarranted Arab aggression against Israel. So I did.

Now, please tell me how Israel should deal with people who a) pledge to exterminate Israel and wipe it from the face of the Earth
With "people?" Does that include all the innocent Palestinians killed by the Israelis?"

b) who hide their weapons among their own women and children
This justifies bombing in the middle of innocent men, women and children?

c) who kidnap Israelis, torture and murder them,
Most would agree that dead is dead, no matter how it was caused.

d) brainwash suicide bombers to blow up crowded Israeli markets and busses filled with mothers and school children
And the Isaeli bombing of whole sections to get at the murder is justified?

e) constantly fire rockets into Israeli neighborhoods for the express purpose of killing or maiming any men, women, or children they manage to hit and making life intolerable for peaceful people living in those neighborhoods.
The innocents do not do this, even innocent Jews.



If you were Israel how would you handle it? They've tried giving the Arabs the land they demand and the Arabs use it to launch renewed terrorist attacks.
"Giving Arabs land?" You are out of your freeq'n mind; it's worked the other way around; they have taken many more they have "given." You are blind with bigotry.

They've tried coexisting peacefully with the Palestinians with the same results. They've tried negotiating peace with the Palestinians and it is always Palestinians who violate the peace.
Just how does the Palestinians negotiate peace when the Jews continue to expand their settlements by stealing their lands?



So you're in charge of Israel. What do you do?

Meanwhile you might acknowledge that the Arabs are in fact guilty of unwarranted aggression against Israel as well as unconscionable cruelty toward, endangerment and neglect of their own people.

Previous to the above post, Fox wrote:


And www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2 on May 15th. . .

And yesterday when Hamas rockets killed an Israeli construction worker, Israel finally sent in the airforce to take out the rocket launchers. And yes, because the noble Arabs place those launchers amidst women and children, there was a Palestinian civilian casualty in that attack.

Add this to a continuing series of acts of aggression involving rocket attacks, kidnappings, sabotage, and bombings dating back to well before 1948 as has been well documented in this thread.

I don't condone everything Israel has done just as I think sometimes the U.S. military over reacted to this or that or the local law can overreact to this or that. Such overreaction invariably leads to unnecessary suffering and sometimes deaths, but that is one of the uglier consequences of dealing with intractable efforts of one party to do violence to another. At some point any of us would get fed up with kidnapping, suicide bombers, and rocket attacks that are intended to kill anybody or everybody possible and will retaliate, maybe even inappropriately.

Maybe inappropriately?

Again, at such time as the Palestinian leadership acknowledges Israel's right to exist and does whatever is necessary to stop the terrorist attacks, and Israel does not respond to that appropriately, I'll side with the Palestinians. Until then, it is Israel who is the victim.

Another bald-faced lie. More innocent Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli military.

From Wiki:

Palestinians Deaths vs Israeli Death. September 28, 2000 - February 15, 2006

[Total Number of Palestinian deaths] : 4209

* Children: 892
* Women : 273
* Men : 3044

[Palestinians killed by Jewish settlers] 72

[Palestinians killed as a result of Israeli shelling] : 83

[Deaths as a result of medical prevention at Israeli checkpoints] : 117

* Of them stillbirths (born dead at checkpoints) : 31

[Number of Palestinians extra-judicially assassinated] : 561

* Of them bystanders killed during extra-judicial operations: 253

[Total Number Israeli deaths]: 1556

* Children : 113
* Women : 305
* Men : 603
* Settlers : 213
* Soldiers : 322

Compare the number of children killed, and tell us how this is defending Jews.

The cost to the Israelis of the conflict between Palestinian arabs and Israelis, is the Palestinian Arab mass murder of Israeli non-murderers (including women and children).

The cost to the Palestinian Arabs of the conflict between Palestinian Arabs and Israelis, is the Israeli mass murder of Palestinian Arab non-murderers (including women and children).

The Israeli retaliatory mass murder has resulted in the mass murder of more Palestinian Arabs, than has the Palestinian Arab initiated mass murder of Israelis.

The solution for the Palestinian Arabs is obvious. The Palestinian Arabs must stop their initiated mass murder of Israelis. Then the Israelis would have zero cause to retaliate against the Palestinian Arabs.


The most difficult thing for people who initiate violence against other humans to comprehend, is that they are the cause of the retaliation against themselves. Also the initiators cannot comprehend why they suffer more victims than those against whom they initiated violence.

Compare the number of children killed in WW2 and tell me how that was defeating Naziism and Japan.

TRUE HISTORY OF THE PRICE OF INITIATED VIOLENCE CAUSED BY RETALIATORY VIOLENCE

1918 AD: Ottoman governance of Palestine ends.
1918 AD: British Protectorate of Palestine Begins.

1920: 5 Jews killed, 200 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1921: 46 Jews killed, 146 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1929: 133 Jews killed, 339 wounded; 116 Arabs killed, 232 wounded.
1936-1939: 329 Jews killed, 857 wounded; 3,112 Arabs killed, 1,775 wounded; 135 Brits killed, 386 wounded; 110 Arabs hanged, 5,679 jailed.
1947: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish State and into an Arab State.
1948: Jews declare independence and establish the State of Israel.
1948: War breaks out between Jews defending Israel and Arabs invading Israel.
1948: State of Israel successfully defends itself and additionally conquers a part of Palestine originally granted by the UN to the Arabs.

You're wasting your breath, Ican and MM. To some it doesn't matter that innocent Israelis are killed--on purpose--or what the history is. It doesn't matter that the Palestinian terrorists place their munitions and rocket launchers in the middle of women and children to be sure that some are killed when they intentionally draw Israeli fire. It doesn't matter that Israel does not target women or children and the Palestinians do. It doesn't matter that Israel does not make war on the Palestinians but does retaliate when the Palestinians make war on Israel.

When the only criteria for who is good and who is evil is determined by who kills the most of the other, there is no basis for rational discussion of any kind.

Hey Foxy, you've ignored my last two posts.

And they were nice short ones too.

That's okay McTag. You've been ignoring any points I've made for a very long time now.