ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

ican711nm wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
ican wrote:
A NON-NEGOTIABLE PREREQUISITE

Until those Arabs that fled Israel in 1948 support the UN's 1947 resolution and declare Israel's right to exist, those Arabs possess zero right of return to Israel.

This is not Israel's position in regard to the Palestinian refugees.

What do you think is "Israel's position in regard to the Palestinian refugees?"

The Israeli position in regard to the Palestinian refugees is that the latter do not have a right of return whether they accept UN resolution 181 or not, otherwise it would make Jews a minority in Israel. In the words of the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, "According to Palestinian sources, there are about 3.5 million Palestinian refugees nowadays registered with UNRWA.13 If Israel were to allow all of them to return to her territory, this would be an act of suicide on her part, and no state can be expected to destroy itself."

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InfraBlue wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
ican wrote:
A NON-NEGOTIABLE PREREQUISITE

Until those Arabs that fled Israel in 1948 support the UN's 1947 resolution and declare Israel's right to exist, those Arabs possess zero right of return to Israel.

This is not Israel's position in regard to the Palestinian refugees.

What do you think is "Israel's position in regard to the Palestinian refugees?"

The Israeli position in regard to the Palestinian refugees is that the latter do not have a right of return whether they accept UN resolution 181 or not, otherwise it would make Jews a minority in Israel. In the words of the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, "According to Palestinian sources, there are about 3.5 million Palestinian refugees nowadays registered with UNRWA.13 If Israel were to allow all of them to return to her territory, this would be an act of suicide on her part, and no state can be expected to destroy itself."

I well underestimated the Arab population of the area early on in this thread, but I seem to recall after I looked it up that the population was about 1.3 million Palestinians when Israel was created and approximately 500,000 to 600,000 of those lived on the land granted by the UN to Israel. There are currently almost 1.5 million Arabs who live in Israel with full rights as citizens (roughly 19 or 20% of the total population).

So where does a figure of 3.5 million Palestinian refugees come from? I'm not saying they don't exist, but the math doesn't seem to add up.

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I could get the idea that within 50 years the one or other baby has been born ...

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But the number would have had to more than triple in 60 years. I still don't think the math works to make Israel responsible for 3.5 million Palestinian refugees.

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Jewish Population Trends in Israel and the Diaspora

By Sergio DellaPergola

After the loss of six million during the Shoah, the world Jewish population was estimated at eleven million in 1945. It took about 13 years to add one million Jews to the post-Shoah total, but the next 45 years were not enough to add a second million: world Jewry was estimated at 12,948,000 in 2003. Zero population growth reflects mostly negative balances between Jewish births and Jewish deaths, and between accessions to and secessions from Judaism. Low "effectively Jewish" birthrates also reflect widespread out-marriages and low propensities to identify the majority of the respective children as Jews.

In Israel, Jews have constituted a solid majority of the total population since 1948, while Jews in other countries constituted small minorities in their respective environments. Israel's Jewish population steadily increased from approximately half a million in 1945 and one million in 1950 to over 5.1 million in 2003. Diaspora Jewry was stable from 10.5 million in 1945 to 10.2 million in 1960, notwithstanding mass aliyah following Israel's independence. The Diaspora population, however, rapidly diminished to 7.8 million in 2003.

International migration reshaped the geographical map of world Jewry and fundamentally changed the environments in which Jewish life developed. Since 1945 over five million Jews and their non-Jewish family members have moved between countries and continents. Jewish migration's wavelike pattern has reflected predominant crisis or push-dominated determinants. Two major migration waves occurred in the wake of Israel's independence, between May 1948 and 1951, and since the end of 1989, with the great exodus from the former Soviet Union (FSU). Jews massively moved out of countries where they had been long discriminated against, to societies offering political freedom and socioeconomic opportunities.

The Middle East, North Africa, Ethiopia, the FSU, and other parts of Eastern Europe and the Balkans witnessed most of their Jews emigrating. Large numbers of Jews also left Latin America and South Africa, and to a lesser extent the United Kingdom and other European countries. Major recipients of Jewish migration - besides Israel - were the United States, France, Canada, Australia, and more recently Germany. The overall effect of these changes was a significant concentration and correlation of the Jewish presence with major indicators of national socioeconomic development and life quality. Israel itself - beyond the unique cultural-ideological effects of Zionism - rose during the second half of the 20th century from a small and quite underdeveloped country to a stable and competitive geopolitical and economic presence internationally. In 2003, 44 percent of world Jewry lived in the United States and Canada, 39 percent in Israel, and 17 percent in other countries.

The social structure of Jewish communities worldwide also deeply changed. Currently over 50 percent of the total world Jewry live in six major metropolitan areas (Greater New York, Los Angeles, Southern Florida, Greater Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem) and two-thirds live in 20 large cities. Massive movement out of older Jewish occupations in trade and industry led to growing concentration in management and especially in academic, liberal, and technical professions. While the family long functioned as the cornerstone of Jewish society, over the past decades sweeping changes occurred in the conventional roles of marriage and procreation. For example, low birthrates in the Diaspora and the erosive effects of out-marriage on the Jewish identity of children produce remarkably older age compositions.

Continuation of these trends in the foreseeable future may lead to continuing Jewish population growth in Israel and a decrease in the rest of world Jewry. By the end of the current decade, Israel might comprise for the first time more Jews than the United States. Already, a majority of all Jewish school-age children globally live in Israel. By the end of the third decade of the 21st century, Israel might comprise an absolute majority of world Jewry. Facing the rapid growth of world population, the share of Jews is bound to diminish in each major area of the world, including Israel. The implicit weakening of the Jewish presence on the global scene calls for careful consideration of the deeper causes of current trends, and for concerted efforts to moderate or reverse their consequences.

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Conclusions

Dr. Nicholas Eberstadt from the American Enterprise Institute, a leading demographer stated that the US-Israeli team "caught the demographic profession asleep at the switch... The conclusions of this report are not only plausible but quite persuasive..."

There is no demographic sword over the throat of Israel's Jews, and policy makers who are haunted by demographic fatalism base their policies on wrong and unrealistic assumptions. In 1900 Jews constituted an 8% minority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, in 1948 they were a 48% minority and by 2005 they have achieved the critical mass of a durable 60% majority, including Gaza, and a 67% majority without Gaza. The only element which could upset the current demographic trend would be a net positive Arab migration to Judea and Samaria, which would then trickle into the "Green Line". The establishment of a Palestinian State - which would deny Israel's control of the international passages to Judea and Samaria - would guarantee a pro Palestinian demographic trend. Thus, sustaining control over Geography constitutes a prerequisite for a robust Demography.

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University of Texas:

Case Study 3: The Palestinian "Right of Return"
One of the most difficult issues that Israelis and Palestinians must solve in order to work out a peace agreement is the issue of the Palestinian "right of return." When the state of Israel was declared in 1947, a war broke out between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Many of the Arab residents who lived in what became Israel fled their homes. Many more fled during the Arab-Israeli war in 1967. Now, many Palestinians are asking for the right to return to their homes in what is now Israel proper. This is an issue that is very emotional for people on both sides of this conflict. Students will consider the reasons for and against the Palestinian 'right of return.'

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Conclusions

Dr. Nicholas Eberstadt from the American Enterprise Institute, a leading demographer stated that the US-Israeli team "caught the demographic profession asleep at the switch... The conclusions of this report are not only plausible but quite persuasive..."

There is no demographic sword over the throat of Israel's Jews, and policy makers who are haunted by demographic fatalism base their policies on wrong and unrealistic assumptions. In 1900 Jews constituted an 8% minority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, in 1948 they were a 48% minority and by 2005 they have achieved the critical mass of a durable 60% majority, including Gaza, and a 67% majority without Gaza. The only element which could upset the current demographic trend would be a net positive Arab migration to Judea and Samaria, which would then trickle into the "Green Line". The establishment of a Palestinian State - which would deny Israel's control of the international passages to Judea and Samaria - would guarantee a pro Palestinian demographic trend. Thus, sustaining control over Geography constitutes a prerequisite for a robust Demography.

Is there any reason you don't provide links? This is really garbage. The Arabs have an extremely high birthrate. Moreover, were there a right of return, such as they demand, it would be goodbye to Israel. There may be merit in partitioning Israel to give the Israeli-Arabs their own state, and relocating those in other parts of Israel to that new state.

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Palestine's Population During The Ottoman And The British Mandate Periods

Return to Zionist FAQ

Posted on September 8, 2001

By Justin McCarthy

Of the 1,358,000 Palestinian Arab 9itizens of Palestine in 1948, approximately 873;600 resided within what. would become the Israeli borders, 485,000 without. The Israelis recorded 156,000 non-Jews in 1948, a number that included perhaps 1,000 non-Arabs, leaving 155,000 Palestinians in Israel. This means that 718,000 Palestinians either were refugees or died during the war. Note that this number depends on the somewhat imprecise estimation of the numbers who lived on both sides of the border before the war, and so should be taken as a mean estimate. However, statistically it cannot be wrong by more than 5 to 10 percent (for other analyses, see Khalidi, 1992; Bachi, 1977).
Of the Palestinian religious groups, Muslims had the highest proportion of their numbers as refugees, Christians somewhat less. Relatively few of the Druze became refugees.

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ican711nm wrote:

A NON-NEGOTIABLE PREREQUISITE
Until those Arabs that fled Israel in 1948 support the UN's 1947 resolution and declare Israel's right to exist, those Arabs possess zero right of return to Israel.

Tigershark wrote:

What's wrong with that? Where do we start?

So, the descendants of the 'Arabs' that lived in the land of their fathers up until 1947, then got driven out to avoid being murdered after resisting this invasion, now must acknowledge the legitimacy of this crime in order to be able to return to their own country as third class citizens.

As I said....sounds fair

What crime?

Your trite fantasy has been repeatedly promulgated by the sorosaian society for dupes:
"So, the descendants of the 'Arabs' that lived in the land of their fathers up until 1947, then got driven out to avoid being murdered after resisting this invasion."

The thousands of Arabs that left Israel in 1948, chose to flee Israel--and were not driven out--when their external brethren (i.e., external to Israel) convinced them to leave. Thousands more Arabs in Israel told their external brethen, in effect, go to hell, we're staying right where we are. They were as or more successful in avoiding being murdered.

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Why do Palestinians want to destroy Israel and drive Israeli Jews into the sea?
למאמר בעברית

Posted on August 2, 2001

This is the question asked most frequently by Israelis and Zionists. We will answer the question indirectly by asking the question below:

Are you aware that Israeli Zionists, during the 1948 war, pushed over tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees into the sea?

For a long time, Zionists have been propagating fear based propaganda to their followers, probably this picture can tell you a bit of the real story, click here for more details. It's misleading and unfair to focus on what Palestinians might allegedly do in the future, while the past and present of Palestinians are filled with Israeli war crimes. These types of accusations are meant to deflect and confuse the core issues of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The core issues of the conflict are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING (compulsory population transfer) of the Palestinian people for the past five decades. It should be emphasized that the conflict would have been at the same level of intensity, even if both warring parties had been Muslims, Christians, or even Jewish.

Since the inception of Zionism, its leaders have been keen on creating a "Jewish State" based on a "Jewish majority" by mass immigration of Jews to Palestine, primarily European Jews fleeing from anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia and Nazi Germany. When a "Jewish majority" was impossible to achieve, based on Jewish immigration and natural growth, Zionist leaders (such as Ben Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, and Chaim Weizmann) concluded that "population transfer" was the only solution to what they referred to as the "Arab Problem." Year after year, the plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous people became known as the "transfer solution". David Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated the "transfer solution" as the following:

In a joint meeting between the Jewish Agency Executive and Zionist Action Committee on June 12th, 1938:

"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] .... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it." (Righteous Victims p. 144).

In a speech addressing the Central Committee of the Histadrut on December 30, 1947:
"In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176 & Benny Morris p. 28)

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CI, please spare us the crapola.

Before the establishment of Israel, there was mutual fighting between Jews and Arabs. In fact, the Arabs tried to kill as many Jews as possible. Also, the Jews had to fight the UK, which was persecuting the Jews.

Jews had a right to come to this British mandate. Moreover, they took land that was not owned by the Pals.

NEVER did the Jews force thousands of Arabs into the sea. That is truly a big lie.

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MAYBE THE JEWS OF ISRAEL HAVE A LEGITIMATE COMPLAINT!

TRANSCIBED FROM BRITANNICA
1918: Ottoman Empire Ends Control of Palestine. British Protectorate of Palestine Begins.

1920: 5 Jews killed 200 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.

1921: 46 Jews killed 146 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.

1929: 133 Jews killed 339 wounded 116 Arabs killed 232 wounded.

1936-1939: 329 Jews killed 857 wounded. 3,112 Arabs killed 1,775 wounded; 135 Brits killed 386 wounded; 110 Arabs hanged 5,679 jailed.

1947: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish State and into an Arab State.

1948: Jews declare independence and establish the State of Israel.

1948: War breaks out between Jews defending Israel and Arabs attempting to invade Israel. State of Israel successfully defends itself and
conquers part of Arab Palestine.[/quote]
...

Quote:

TERRORISM OF JEWS
...

1970: Avivim school bus massacre by Palestinian PLO members, killing nine children, three adults and crippling 19.

1972: Black September kidnaps and kills eleven Israeli Olympic athletes and one German policeman in the Munich Massacre.

1974: Kiryat Shmona massacre at an apartment building by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members, killing 18 people, nine of whom were children.

1974: Ma'alot massacre at the Ma'alot High School in Northern Israel by Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members: 26 of the hostages were killed, 66 wounded.

1975: In the Savoy Operation PLO gunmen from Lebanon take dozens of hostages at the Tel Aviv Savoy Hotel eventually killing eight hostages and three IDF soldiers, and wounding eleven hostages.

1976: Hijacking of Air France Flight 139 (Tel Aviv-Paris) by Palestinian PFLP and German Revolutionäre Zellen; see Operation Entebbe: four hostages, one Sayeret Matkal soldier and 45 Ugandian soldiers killed.

1978: Members of the Arab Revolutionary Council poison Israeli oranges with mercury, injuring at least twelve people and reducing exports by 40 percent.

1978: Coastal Road massacre: Fatah gunmen killed several tourists and hijack a bus near Haifa; 37 Israelis on the bus are killed.

1984: three killed and nine injured in the bombing of a civilian bus in Ashdod.

1984: 48 people are wounded by a machine gun attack on a crowded shopping mall in Jerusalem.

1986: A bomb place on a bus in the West Bank kills one and severely injures three.

1990: PLF attack in the beaches on Tel Aviv.

1990: PLO attack on the US embassy.

1992: Israeli Embassy bombing by "Islamic Jihad" in Buenos Aires, Argentina; 29 killed, 242 injured.

1994: Bombing of Jewish Center in Buenos Aires, Argentina, kills 86 and wounds 300.

1996: A series of four suicide bombings in Israel leave 60 dead and 284 wounded within 10 days.

2000: Terrorism against Israel.

2001: Terrorism against Israel.

2001: Israeli infant Shalhevet Pass is fatally shot in the head by a Palestinian sniper in Hebron.

2001: 21 civilians, mostly teenagers from the former Soviet Union, are killed by a Hamas suicide bomber in the Dolphinarium massacre in Tel Aviv, Israel.

2001: A suicide bomber in Jerusalem kills seven and wounds 130 in the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing; Hamas and Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.

2001: Israeli tourism minister Rehavam Zeevi is assassinated by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

2002: Terrorism against Israel in 2002.

2002: A Palestinian suicide bomber kills 30 and injures 140 during Passover festivities in a hotel in Netanya, Israel in the Passover massacre.

2002: A Hamas suicide bomber kills 15 and injures over 40 in Haifa, Israel, in the Matza restaurant massacre.

2002: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates himself on a bus in Jerusalem in the Patt junction massacre. The attack kills 19 people and wounds over 74.

2002: Hamas orchestrates the Jerusalem bus 20 massacre. 11 people were killed and over 50 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated on a crowded bus in central Jerusalem.

2003: Terrorism against Israel in 2003.

2003: A Hamas suicide bomber kills 17 people and wounds 53 when he detonates a bomb hidden under his clothing in the Haifa bus 37 massacre.

2003: Jerusalem bus 2 massacre: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates himself on a crowded bus carrying mostly Orthodox Jewish Israelis, including many children returning from the Western Wall. 23 people are killed and over 130 wounded.

2003: A Palestinian suicide bomber kills 21 and wounds 51 in a Haifa restaurant in the Maxim restaurant massacre.

2004: Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2004.

2004: Jerusalem bus 19 massacre: Hamas and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades orchestrate a suicide bombing on a bus in Jerusalem, Israel killing 11 people and wounding more than 50.

2004: Israeli soldiers arrest Hussam Abdo, a 15 year-old Palestinian boy with explosives strapped to his chest at the Hawara Checkpoint. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades sent Abdo on a suicide mission to bomb the checkpoint.

2004: Pregnant Israeli commuter Tali Hatuel and her four young children are gunned down at close range by militants from the Popular Resistance Committees and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

2005: A suicide bomber in Tel Aviv kills five Israelis and undermines a weeks-old truce between the two sides.

2005: Islamic Jihad takes responsibility for a suicide bombing in Netanya, Israel, which kills five people at a shopping mall.

2005: Jewish settler in an IDF uniform opens fire on a bus in Shfaram, Israel, killing 4 Israeli Arabs and wounding 5.

2005: A Palestinian suicide bomber detonates a bomb near a falafel stand in Hadera, Israel that kills himself and six others. Twenty-six people were also wounded.

2005: A suicide bomb attack kills at least five people in Netanya in north-western Israel.

2006: Qassam rockets fired by Hamas into Israel, especially the cities of Ashkelon and Sderot, injures many citizens.

2006: Palestinian suicide bomber kills himself and four others at Kedumim Junction in the West Bank.

2006: Sami Hammad, a Palestinian suicide bomber, detonates an explosive device in Tel Aviv, Israel, killing eleven people and injuring 70.

2006: Eliyahu Asheri, an Israeli citizen, was kidnapped and murdered by the Palestinian terrorist group, the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC).
...

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CI carefully avoids the above facts, and tries to argue that the Jews unilaterally attacked, and are attacking, the Arabs. He parrots the Arab line that this is Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.

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MORE TERRORISM OF JEWS BY ARABS

Quote:

TERRORISM OF JEWS

1968
December 26: Two Palestinian gunmen travel from Beirut to Athens, and
attack an El Al jet there, killing one person.

...

2007
January 29 Israel Eilat Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed joint responsibility for a suicide bombing.

April 25: The American International School in the Gaza Strip is stormed by a dozen gunman claiming to be members of al-Qaeda of Palestine who stole eight computers, planted explosives in adjoining buildings, doused the school with gasoline and set it ablaze.

May 6: In a bomb attack on an UN-run elementary school in the southern Gaza refugee camp of Rafah by Muslim extremists, one person, a bodyguard of a local Fatah politician, was killed and eight others, including two children, were injured. The attack happened during a sports festival that earlier had been denounced as un-Islamic by the extremists

May 15, May 16: Hamas launches twenty eight rockets into an Israeli town injuring five. Despite Hamas claiming the motive was retaliation for Israeli violence, NBC News claims "likely it was an attempt to draw Israel into the fighting as a way of uniting the Palestinians against a common foe".[32]

May 20: Two women, one of them pregnant, were stopped at the Erez Crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip while they were en route to commit suicide bombings in Tel Aviv and Netanya. Both women admitted to being members of Islamic Jihad.[34]

May 21: A Qassam rocket fired by Hamas hits a car in Sderot, killing 35-year-old Shir-El Friedman in the blast.[35]

June 24: A suicide car bomb targeted and killed six members of Unifil near the border with Israel. Two others were also injured. The casualties were Spanish and Colombian nationals.[47]

October 24: An off-duty Israeli Defense Force soldier was badly injured and a civilian was slightly injured in a shooting attack on the Trans-Samaria road near the entrance to Ariel. Responsibility for the shooting was claimed by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.[78]

November 19: IDF Soldiers shoot and kill three terrorists attempting to climb the Gaza security fence near Israeli community Netiv Ha'asara. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the infiltration attempt. An organization spokesman said, "It was planned to be a suicide attack".[83]

December 28: Palestinian militants have killed two Israeli hikers, Israeli soldiers on leave, near the West Bank city of Hebron. The shooters belong to Mahmoud Abass's Fatah movement, and are directly linked to the PA security forces.[100],[101]

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Meanwhile on the Gaza/Egyptian border, things are heating up between Hamas and Egypt and Israel. The Egyptians don't want militant Palestinians any more than Israel does.

Egypt Takes Steps to Close Gaza Border
Jan 25, 9:09 AM (ET)

By OMAR SINAN

RAFAH, Egypt (AP) - Egyptian guards with riot shields formed human chains along the Egypt-Gaza border Friday, but were unable to stop hundreds of Palestinians from rushing into Egypt after a bulldozer wrecked another section of fence along the frontier.

Men in black clothing, some of them masked, stood atop the bulldozer as it knocked down a concrete slab under the watchful eyes of Egyptian forces on the other side who shot in the air in an attempt to hinder the flow of Gazans into Egypt.

Thousands of Palestinians, many of them carrying empty fuel canisters, managed to push through several openings despite the presence of the Egyptians deployed nine rows deep in some places. At one point, guards aimed a water cannon above the heads of people, not at them, to keep them back.

Cranes were positioned next to the border, lifting crates of supplies over into Gaza.

Egyptian forces took up positions a few steps into Palestinian territory, using shields to protect themselves from some Gazans who climbed atop car roofs and threw stones at them. Witnesses said a photographer was lightly injured in the clash.

The border was first breached Wednesday, when Palestinian militants blew down large sections of the border wall. Since then, Egypt has allowed tens of thousands of Palestinians to go back and forth, but has rejected any suggestion of assuming responsibility for the crowded, impoverished territory.

The visitors included a gaggle of Palestinian women in finely embroidered dresses and fresh makeup, heading to relatives' weddings in Egypt they said had been hastily moved up to allow Gazan family members to attend.

Yousef Mohammed, 17, from Gaza, said he waited until Friday to make the trip because he was trying to get together enough money first to shop in Egypt. "They don't want us to go in," he said, pointing at the riot police.

Travelers returning from Egypt said they heard loudspeaker announcements there that Gazans had to return home by 7 p.m. Friday.

The border issue became a verbal spat between Egypt and Israel when Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai said Israel gradually wants to relinquish responsibility for Gaza, now that its border with Egypt was blown open.

It was a position echoed by other Israeli officials, who said the border breach could pave the way for increasingly disconnecting from the territory.

However, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, speaking on Thursday to The Associated Press on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Switzerland, said he did not want to "go too far in my interpretation of this."

Egypt angrily rejected the Israeli ideas and said it would not change border arrangements.

In an interview published Friday in the weekly Al-Osboa, President Hosni Mubarak called the situation in Gaza "unacceptable" and called on Israel to "lift its siege" and "solve the problem."

The opening of the border, even if temporary, provided a significant popularity boost to Gaza's Hamas rulers, who can claim they successfully broke through the internationally supported Israeli closure that has deprived the coastal strip of normal trade and commerce for nearly two years.

Both Egypt and Israel restricted the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza after Hamas won parliament elections in 2006, and further tightened the closure after Hamas seized control of the area by force last June.

A handful of black-clad Hamas gunmen fanned out along the Gaza side of the border Friday, attempting to create order amid waves of Gaza residents approaching the area. It was the first time since the border fence was torn down that Hamas deployed uniformed men to deal with the chaos. The militant group has been using plainclothes agents to regulate the crowd.

Warning that militants were among the Palestinians who entered Egypt, the Israeli military raised its level of alert Thursday, fearing an attack on Israel, and closed the highway along the Israel-Egypt border.

Overnight, Israeli air strikes killed four Hamas militants around Rafah, Palestinian and Israeli officials said Friday.

Two Hamas militiamen were killed as they drove near the shattered border fence with Egypt and two more died while driving in Rafah town, Palestinian security officials said.

Israeli police on Friday limited Palestinians' access to Jerusalem's al-Aqsa mosque complex - Islam's third-holiest shrine - fearing violent protest there against Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said males under the age of 40 were barred from attending weekly Muslim prayers at the site, in the walled Old City, and extra officers were on duty.

"This is part of our precautions in light of the events in Gaza this week," Jerusalem police chief Aharon Franco told army radio. Rosenfeld said the increased police presence was also linked to the killing of a policeman and the wounding of a female officer by unknown gunmen Thursday night at the Shuafat Palestinian refugee camp, on the edge of Jerusalem.

Also Thursday, two Palestinians armed with knives and a pistol broke into the West Bank settlement of Kfar Etzion in an apparent attempt to kidnap Jewish seminary students there, stabbing three students before instructors at the institution shot the attackers dead.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Meanwhile on the Gaza/Egyptian border, things are heating up between Hamas and Egypt and Israel. The Egyptians don't want militant Palestinians any more than Israel does.

I'd thought, the Egyptians led them in for quite a couple of days?

Quote:

Thousands across the Mideast held protests on Friday in support of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, calling for an end to the Israeli siege that has driven tens of thousands to force their way into Egypt in recent days to buy basic goods.

[...]

Last week, Israel sealed Gaza off, halting fuel shipments and shutting down its only power plant, which provides electricity to about one-third of Gaza's 1.5 million residents after militants launched rocket attacks on Israeli settlements.

The border was first breached Wednesday, when Palestinian militants blew down large sections of the border wall. Since then, Egypt has allowed tens of thousands of Palestinians to go back and forth, but has rejected any suggestion of assuming responsibility for the crowded, impoverished territory.

Source

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Meanwhile on the Gaza/Egyptian border, things are heating up between Hamas and Egypt and Israel. The Egyptians don't want militant Palestinians any more than Israel does.

I'd thought, the Egyptians led them in for quite a couple of days?

Quote:
Thousands across the Mideast held protests on Friday in support of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, calling for an end to the Israeli siege that has driven tens of thousands to force their way into Egypt in recent days to buy basic goods.

[...]

Last week, Israel sealed Gaza off, halting fuel shipments and shutting down its only power plant, which provides electricity to about one-third of Gaza's 1.5 million residents after militants launched rocket attacks on Israeli settlements.

The border was first breached Wednesday, when Palestinian militants blew down large sections of the border wall. Since then, Egypt has allowed tens of thousands of Palestinians to go back and forth, but has rejected any suggestion of assuming responsibility for the crowded, impoverished territory.

Source

Well I read the whole story, Walter, instead of cherry picking a paragraph two and pretending it is all there is to it.

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Oh, sorry. I was mainly referring to your

Quote:

The Egyptians don't want militant Palestinians any more than Israel does.

And you obviously missed this

Quote:

Egypt tried in vain to re-establish its border with Gaza as its security personnel were overwhelmed by a flood of Palestinians streaming across the frontier.

source

And from the BBC: Gazans make new border wall hole

All news published to your post.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Oh, sorry. I was mainly referring to your

Quote:
The Egyptians don't want militant Palestinians any more than Israel does.

And you obviously missed this

Quote:
Egypt tried in vain to re-establish its border with Gaza as its security personnel were overwhelmed by a flood of Palestinians streaming across the frontier.
source

But then there is also this:

Quote:

. . . . Egyptian forces took up positions a few steps into Palestinian territory, using shields to protect themselves from some Gazans who climbed atop car roofs and threw stones at them. Witnesses said a photographer was lightly injured in the clash. . . .

The border was first breached Wednesday, when Palestinian militants blew down large sections of the border wall. Since then, Egypt has allowed tens of thousands of Palestinians to go back and forth, but has rejected any suggestion of assuming responsibility for the crowded, impoverished territory. . . .

Yousef Mohammed, 17, from Gaza, said he waited until Friday to make the trip because he was trying to get together enough money first to shop in Egypt. "They don't want us to go in," he said, pointing at the riot police.

Travelers returning from Egypt said they heard loudspeaker announcements there that Gazans had to return home by 7 p.m. Friday. . . .

Same source

Egypt wants Israel to solve the problem. Israel took the Gaza Strip from Egypt in 1967 during the war in which Egypt presumably intended to take all of Israel. Israel was forced by public pressure and UN resolutions to relinquish control of Gaza to the Palestinians and Egypt and, I'm not positive, but I think all the Israelis moved out of Gaza in 2005. Israel no longer sees Gaza as their problem. Why didn't Israel give Gaza back to Egypt in the peace treaty? Egypt didn't want it?

Quote:

June 1967 - Israel captures the Gaza Strip from Egypt and prime minister Levi Eshkol declares that the coastal area will "never be returned to Egypt.''

Late 1967 - Eshkol plans the establishment of Jewish settlements in Gaza to form a Jewish buffer zone on Israel's southwestern flank. The idea meets government opposition over fears of attacks by Palestinians in the area and the lack of water sources.

June 1970 - Government passes initial decision to establish settlements in Gaza.

1972 - Israel begins establishing two army posts in Gaza, which later become the communities of Netzarim and Kfar Darom.

1977 - More Israeli civilians are allowed to move into the army installations, and new settlements are established.

1982 - Israel evacuates the settlement of Yamit in the Sinai as part of its transfer of the territory to Egypt under a peace agreement, moves some of the removed settlers to Gaza.

1987 - First Palestinian uprising begins in Gaza. Israel responds by establishing new settlements.

Sept. 13, 1993 - Israel and the Palestinians sign the Oslo accords, clearing the way for Israel to pull out of parts of Gaza.

December 2003 - Sharon presents plan to dismantle all Gaza settlements and four in the West Bank. By this time more than 8,000 Israelis live in 21 Gaza settlements.

October 2004 - Sharon's withdrawal plan is approved in the Israeli parliament.

Aug. 15, 2005 - Israel begins withdrawal.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1124128284069_119537484

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