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ican711nm wrote:Blame the real culprits.
Oh, I do.
ican711nm wrote:Blame those who initiated mass murder and not those who try to protect themselves against mass murderers by attempting to kill those mass murderers.
Empty, hollow phrase. Sorry, ican. You've said that a thousand times, but it has almost nothing to do with the situation on 12 July 2006.
I blame those who think that certain goals are more important than the lives of innocent civilians.
How innocent are civilians who tolerate the existence of mass murderers in their midst that choose to mass murder civilians not in their midst? I say they aren't really innocent.
The Israelis wanted to try and rescue their captured soldiers. So they entered Lebanon where their soldiers' captors were located in a search for their captors. The kidnappers start firing rockets at Israeli civilians. The Israelies hysterically started dropping cluster bombs on whatever sites they thought contained those firing rockets at Israeli civilians. The net results of the whole senseless conflict were the deaths of hundreds of Israeli civilians and the deaths of many more Lebanese civilians.
There were two apparent solutions for the Israelies. Do their best to rescue their captured soldiers or negotiate a return of their captured soldiers. Choosing the first alternative led them to killing Lebanese civilians because they were not competent enough to avoid killing Lebanese civilians, and stopping the captors' rockets from killing Israeli civilians. Choosing the second alternative would have led them to be more likely victims of future captors
Alas, no civilians would have been killed had the Lebanese not tolerated soldier captors and rocket shooting murderers of civilian in their midst.
I expect the Lebanese will not make that mistake again.
They now know the Israelis are not competent enough to wage war against murderers without killing civilians in whose midst the murderers are located.
As a general self-interest rule, I would suggest that we should always do our best to prevent murderers of both others and ourselves from being in our midst. Its close to being equally risky to our lives and limbs if we don't.
Israel could have easily killed several hundred thousands in Leb, but worked hard to avoid this (with pamphlets, etc.). Hez, however, has always worked hard to kill as many civilians as possible.
Advocate wrote:Israel could have easily killed several hundred thousands in Leb, but worked hard to avoid this (with pamphlets, etc.). Hez, however, has always worked hard to kill as many civilians as possible.
In that case, how do you explain that the IDF killed ten times as many innocent civilians as Hezbollah?
old europe wrote:Advocate wrote:Israel could have easily killed several hundred thousands in Leb, but worked hard to avoid this (with pamphlets, etc.). Hez, however, has always worked hard to kill as many civilians as possible.
In that case, how do you explain that the IDF killed ten times as many innocent civilians as Hezbollah?
Israel didn't kill the civilians. Hez did it by hiding among the civilians.
Had German Americans moved to Germany just before WWII at the request of Germany, you can be sure that OE would not allow them to return.
With Israel, it is always a double standard wherein Israel is always at fault.
You say that Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing. Well, they certainly did a poor job, with millions of Pals in Israel and in the WB and Gaza.
We should talk about the Arab Pals who are driving out the Christians and other minorities.
And don't forget how they massacred every Jew in Hebron. Now that is real ethnic cleansing.
ican711nm wrote:How innocent are civilians who tolerate the existence of mass murderers in their midst that choose to mass murder civilians not in their midst? I say they aren't really innocent.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but weren't the 9/11 terrorists living in the United States for quite a while before the attacks?
If that's the case, does that mean that they were tolerated by Americans? And if that's the case, does that mean that those American civilians are not really innocent in regard to the 9/11 attacks?
Enlighten me, please.
I would hug you for these questions if I could.
Yes, the 9/11 terrorists lived in the USA for quite a while before they mass murdered. And yes, those of us, civilian or government, who even suspected these 9/11 terrorists to be future mass murderers were not innocent of the 9/11 mass murders, if they failed to take the required action to determine if they were likely mass murderers.
ican711nm wrote:The Israelis wanted to try and rescue their captured soldiers. So they entered Lebanon where their soldiers' captors were located in a search for their captors. The kidnappers start firing rockets at Israeli civilians. The Israelies hysterically started dropping cluster bombs on whatever sites they thought contained those firing rockets at Israeli civilians. The net results of the whole senseless conflict were the deaths of hundreds of Israeli civilians and the deaths of many more Lebanese civilians.
Oh yes. I just don't think somebody who's 'hysterically dropping cluster bombs' cannot be blamed for the result of that action.
OK, blame them for their hysterical action but not their hysteria. But blame the mass murderers far more.
ican711nm wrote:There were two apparent solutions for the Israelies. Do their best to rescue their captured soldiers or negotiate a return of their captured soldiers. Choosing the first alternative led them to killing Lebanese civilians because they were not competent enough to avoid killing Lebanese civilians, and stopping the captors' rockets from killing Israeli civilians. Choosing the second alternative would have led them to be more likely victims of future captors
You really seem to think there were only two solutions. Sad. It's that black-and-white point of view that makes you sound really radical.
Of course, Israel could have acted in lots of ways. It could have sent a small team. It could have contacted the Lebanese government. It could have addressed the United Nations. Many, many options. Some of them better, some of them not so good. However, the course the chose resulted in the death of hundreds of innocent civilians (and for me, there's simply no difference between dead Lebanese and dead Israeli civilians), and therefore, it was a really bad course of action.
You are right! I do think that after all the mythology and fantasy is dispensed with, there was really only one solution, and that was destroy those damn rocket installations and their operators. The other alternative I mentioned, negotiate, was meant as a generic solution including those you mentioned (except, "send a small team"). I think the small team approach would prove to be a necessary but not sufficient approach and would fail if nothing more were done (e.g., several commando style search and destroy teams.) While what was actually done was excessively costly in lives, it nonetheless was successful in destroying those damn rocket installations and their operators. Next time, if there is a next time, I would prefer a process for better identifying the real targets before commencing the attack. For example, satellite and aerial photos, radar mapping, intelligence gathering, etc.
ican711nm wrote:Alas, no civilians would have been killed had the Lebanese not tolerated soldier captors and rocket shooting murderers of civilian in their midst.
You're blaming Lebanese civilians for the fact that Hezbollah was operating out of Lebanon. That's like blaming Americans for 9/11, based on the fact that terrorists took flight lessons in the United States.
That's a false comparison. The rockets were far larger weapons to hide than dollars, flight tickets, box cutters, and student flight instruction hours.
ican711nm wrote:I expect the Lebanese will not make that mistake again.
Yeah. No. They seem to be quite dead.
Thankfully not all the Lebanese were killed. Those who survived are not likely to make that mistake again.
ican711nm wrote:They now know the Israelis are not competent enough to wage war against murderers without killing civilians in whose midst the murderers are located.
Is that supposed to be an argument in favour of the IDF?
Hell no! That was a characterization of the unpleasant reality the Israelis and their neighbors have to cope with.
ican711nm wrote:As a general self-interest rule, I would suggest that we should always do our best to prevent murderers of both others and ourselves from being in our midst. Its close to being equally risky to our lives and limbs if we don't.
How would we go about doing that?
(1) Contact police, military or other government authorities.
(2) If that doesn't work contact the media.
(3) If that doesn't work form a vigilante group to solve the problem.
(4) If that doesn't work think of something else to do.
Infra said: "Um, apparently you're ignorant of this, but those Christians and other minorities that you refer to are by and large Arab. The groups doing the driving out to whom you refer are Islamists."
Um, I didn't say anything different. I guess you are ignorant that the cleansers are Islamist Pals.
We should talk about the Arab Pals who are driving out the Christians and other minorities.
Advi wrote:Infra said: "Um, apparently you're ignorant of this, but those Christians and other minorities that you refer to are by and large Arab. The groups doing the driving out to whom you refer are Islamists."
Um, I didn't say anything different. I guess you are ignorant that the cleansers are Islamist Pals.
Geez, you wrote:
We should talk about the Arab Pals who are driving out the Christians and other minorities.
You made a distinction between "Arab Pals" and "Christian and other minorities." The point is that those Christian and other minorities are Arab Palestinians. There is no distinction there. The difference is between those Arab Palestinian Christians and other minorities, and the Arab Palestinian Islamists who are doing the driving out. Do you understand, Advi?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html
Arab Leaders Provoke Exodus
A plethora of evidence exists demonstrating that Palestinians were encouraged to leave their homes to make way for the invading Arab armies. The U.S. Consul¬General in Haifa, Aubrey Lippincott, wrote on April 22, 1948, for example, that "local mufti¬dominated Arab leaders" were urging "all Arabs to leave the city, and large numbers did so."
The Economist, a frequent critic of the Zionists, reported on October 2, 1948: "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit....It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
Time's report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948) was similar: "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city....By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa."
Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. Starting in December 1947, he said, "Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants ?'treacherously' acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments." He concluded, "There can be no exaggerating the importance of these [e]arly Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations" (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 590).
The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts" (Morris, Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986). Morris also documented that the Arab Higher Committee ordered the evacuation of "several dozenvillages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more" in April-July 1948. "The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way" (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 592).
Morris also said that in early May units of the Arab Legion reportedly ordered the evacuation of all women and children from the town of Beisan. The Arab Liberation Army was also reported to have ordered the evacuation of another village south of Haifa. The departure of the women and children, Morris says, "tended to sap the morale of the menfolk who were left behind to guard the homes and fields, contributing ultimately to the final evacuation of villages. Such two-tier evacuation-women and children first, the men following weeks later-occurred in Qumiya in the Jezreel Valley, among the Awarna bedouin in Haifa Bay and in various other places."
Who gave such orders? Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."
The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re¬enter and retake possession of their country."
In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948¬49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:
Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.
"The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two," Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al¬Janub (August 16, 1948). "Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
On April 3, 1949, the Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) said: "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem."
"The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies," according to the Jordanian newspaper Filastin (February 19, 1949).
One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said: "The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
"The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade," said Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951). "He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down."
Even Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:
The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.
Expulsions of Arabs
The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. Yigal Allon, the commander of the Palmach (the "shock force of the Haganah"), said he had Jews talk to the Arabs in neighboring villages and tell them a large Jewish force was in Galilee with the intention of burning all the Arab villages in the Lake Huleh region. The Arabs were told to leave while they still had time and, according to Allon, they did exactly that.
In the most dramatic example, in the Ramle-Lod area, Israeli troops seeking to protect their flanks and relieve the pressure on besieged Jerusalem, forced a portion of the Arab population to go to an area a few miles away that was occupied by the Arab Legion. "The two towns had served as bases for Arab irregular units, which had frequently attacked Jewish convoys and nearby settlements, effectively barring the main road to Jerusalem to Jewish traffic."
As was clear from the descriptions of what took place in the cities with the largest Arab populations, these cases were clearly the exceptions, accounting for only a small fraction of the Palestinian refugees. The expulsions were not designed to force out the entire Arab population; the areas where they took place were strategically vital and meant to prevent the threat of any rearguard action against the Israeli forces, and to insure clear lines of communication. Morris notes that "in general, Haganah and IDF commanders were not forced to confront the moral dilemma posed by expulsion; most Arabs fled before and during the battle, before the Israeli troops reached their homes and before the Israeli commanders were forced to confront the dilema" (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 592).
How Many Refugees?
Many Arabs claim that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians became refugees in 1947¬49. The last census was taken in 1945. It found only 756,000 permanent Arab residents in Israel. On November 30, 1947, the date the UN voted for partition, the total was 809,100. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war. This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure ?- 472,000.
Although much is heard about the plight of the Palestinian refugees, little is said about the Jews who fled from Arab states. Their situation had long been precarious. During the 1947 UN debates, Arab leaders threatened them. For example, Egypt's delegate told the General Assembly: "The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries would be jeopardized by partition."
Is that anything like the Zionists?
cicerone imposter wrote:Is that anything like the Zionists?
Duh, the Zionists didn't do ethnic cleansing. That's why there are so many Pals inside and out of Israel.
But take a look at what the Islamists are doing throughout the ME. Now that is ethnic and religious cleansing.
