In a word, yes. Give Pals equal treatment - as in a real democracy - both legal and economic. Stop building more settlements in the West Bank, and quit stealing Pal's property. Destroy the walls that separate the Pals from the Jews - including the one surrounding Bethlehem.
Give the Pals more freedoms equal to what the Jews have in Israel.
Providing equality to Pals will diminish, if not completely eliminate, suicide bombers. But as in in country - including the US - there will always exist extremists who will kill others for their misguided political beliefs.
What the Jews of Israel have been doing and are still doing is wrong-headed, and will never bring peace to Israel. It only creates inequality and resentment - and suicide bombers.
You are saying Israel should give in to all of the Pal demands, yet you are also condemning Israel for defending itself when they are attacked.
And, I believe, old europe is describing when a police has contact with a suspected criminal.
In a word, yes. Give Pals equal treatment - as in a real democracy - both legal and economic. Stop building more settlements in the West Bank, and quit stealing Pal's property. Destroy the walls that separate the Pals from the Jews - including the one surrounding Bethlehem.
Give the Pals more freedoms equal to what the Jews have in Israel.
Providing equality to Pals will diminish, if not completely eliminate, suicide bombers. But as in in country - including the US - there will always exist extremists who will kill others for their misguided political beliefs.
What the Jews of Israel have been doing and are still doing is wrong-headed, and will never bring peace to Israel. It only creates inequality and resentment - and suicide bombers.
cicerone imposter wrote:And, I believe, old europe is describing when a police has contact with a suspected criminal.
Well, yes, but not even limited to a suspected criminal.
Let's assume there was a guy out there, running around, shooting at people. Let's say he has already killed one person.
We would find it quite acceptable for the police to use violence to stop that guy. However, we would probably not find it acceptable if the police, in trying to stop the guy, shot another ten innocent bystanders. Not even if they stopped or killed the guy in the end. Not even if the guy started the whole thing. Not even if the guy was trying to hide behind civilians.
And yet, people are defending the exact same thing in regard to Israel. (In the Lebanon conflict in summer of 2006, there were 120 Israeli civilians killed and about 400 wounded. On the Lebanese side, 1,191 civilians were killed and
4,409 injured.)
cicerone imposter wrote:In a word, yes. Give Pals equal treatment - as in a real democracy - both legal and economic. Stop building more settlements in the West Bank, and quit stealing Pal's property. Destroy the walls that separate the Pals from the Jews - including the one surrounding Bethlehem.
Give the Pals more freedoms equal to what the Jews have in Israel.
Providing equality to Pals will diminish, if not completely eliminate, suicide bombers. But as in in country - including the US - there will always exist extremists who will kill others for their misguided political beliefs.
What the Jews of Israel have been doing and are still doing is wrong-headed, and will never bring peace to Israel. It only creates inequality and resentment - and suicide bombers.
Yes, by all means grant the Pals all that ... in exchange for the Pals granting Israel the right to exist.
ican711nm wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:In a word, yes. Give Pals equal treatment - as in a real democracy - both legal and economic. Stop building more settlements in the West Bank, and quit stealing Pal's property. Destroy the walls that separate the Pals from the Jews - including the one surrounding Bethlehem.
Give the Pals more freedoms equal to what the Jews have in Israel.
Providing equality to Pals will diminish, if not completely eliminate, suicide bombers. But as in in country - including the US - there will always exist extremists who will kill others for their misguided political beliefs.
What the Jews of Israel have been doing and are still doing is wrong-headed, and will never bring peace to Israel. It only creates inequality and resentment - and suicide bombers.
Yes, by all means grant the Pals all that ... in exchange for the Pals granting Israel the right to exist.
But that's the problem. Israel wants the right to exist as it exists presently--as the homeland for Jews, not Palestinians--by discriminating against, and oppressing the Palestinians through unequal treatment, keeping them away from the Palestinian refugees' ancestral lands in Israel, and segregating the populations.
After all is living really all that important to Jews? Isn't it more important for those dead Lebanese to have survived instead?
Israel once wanted the right to exist as it did prior to the 1967 war.
Yes, Israel wants to exist as a homeland for Jews including those Arabs who are currently living in Israel. The UN's 1947 resolution advocated that, plus it advocated a separate homeland for those Arabs not living in Israel.
Palestinian refugees' ancestral lands What Palestinian refugees' ancestral lands The last time Palestine was ruled by Arabs was in the year 1099 AD.
When the Palestinian refugees fled their homes and businesses in Israel in 1948 in anticipation of Israel being conquered by their fellow Arabs et al outside Palestine, they gave up any rights they had to their homes and businesses in Israel. The Palestinians that chose not to flee in 1948 still possess their homes and businesses in Israel.
ican711nm wrote:After all is living really all that important to Jews? Isn't it more important for those dead Lebanese to have survived instead?
Well, ican, you bring this up, so let me ask you: in your opinion, are the lives of innocent Israeli civilians more valuable than the lives of innocent Lebanese civilians? Yes? Or no?
What do you think?
ican wrote:Israel once wanted the right to exist as it did prior to the 1967 war.
How did Israel exist prior to the 1967 war?
Israel was smaller prior to the 1967 war.
Quote:Yes, Israel wants to exist as a homeland for Jews including those Arabs who are currently living in Israel. The UN's 1947 resolution advocated that, plus it advocated a separate homeland for those Arabs not living in Israel.
The UN's resolution certainly didn't call for the transfer of populations.
The UN's 1947 resolution recommended two states: One a Jewish state and one an Arab state. The transfer of part of the Arab population in Israel was an Arab et al idea.
Quote:Palestinian refugees' ancestral lands What Palestinian refugees' ancestral lands The last time Palestine was ruled by Arabs was in the year 1099 AD.
I didn't talk about whom ruled what when, I talked about the Palestinian refugees' ancestral lands in Israel. Those lands they inhabited before the catastrophe of 1948. That wasn't a very subtle try at a straw man, ican. Try sticking to the points proffered.
Those Arabs who did not flee Israel in 1948 retained their lands. Those that did flee Israel in 1948 lost them. Prior to the 1948 declaration of independence by Israel, Jews and Arabs bought and sold their individual lands from and to each other.
Quote:When the Palestinian refugees fled their homes and businesses in Israel in 1948 in anticipation of Israel being conquered by their fellow Arabs et al outside Palestine, they gave up any rights they had to their homes and businesses in Israel. The Palestinians that chose not to flee in 1948 still possess their homes and businesses in Israel.
In an earlier post you had referred to this tripe as, "the true history of events as I know it to have been." In response to your obsessively compulsive--and anally retentive to boot!--clinging to what amounts to nothing more than propaganda, I post this yet again:
There is, to put it mildly, a disparity between "the true history of events" as you know it, and the true history of events themselves. What you know has been broadly dismissed as Zionist propaganda by Israeli historians such as Aharon Cohen who in the 1970's pointed out in his book "Israel and the Arab World" the complete collapse of the Arab leadership that contributed to the disorder among the Arab populace, but that in actuality the Arab leadership, namely the Arab Higher Committee had tried to forestall the Arab flight during the 1948 war. In 1979 Simha Flapan wrote in his book "Zionism and the Palestinians" that "the hard core of refugees were deliberately intimidated into a panic flight, or driven out by force even after the war was over." The scholarship most damaging to the Zionist propaganda that you adhere to is perhaps that of Benny Morris who in the late 1980's through his book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" brought to light the ethnic cleansing that was perpetrated by the Zionist forces as they swept through the Arab populated areas that came under their control during the 1948 war. The Arab populace ran in terror due to the increasing accounts of Jewish atrocities committed against the Arab villages that they'd subjugate. In response to claims that he ignored claims that the Arab leadership ordered the Palestinians to flee, Morris has stated that there is no evidence for these claims, what's more, he had uncovered documentation showing that the Arab leadership gave orders to the Palestinians to remain in their homes.
We disagree. At that time in 1948, I personally heard the Arabs being quoted on ABC, CBS, and NBC news programs as urging the Arabs in Israel to flee so that they could avoid becoming accidental casualties of the ensuing Arab et al attack on Israel.
In regard to the ridiculously self-serving, and flatly false opinion that "When the Palestinian refugees fled their homes and businesses in Israel in 1948 . . . they gave up any rights they had to their homes and businesses in Israel" after the catastrophe of 1948, the UN through its General Assembly Resolution 194(111) of 11 December 1948 resolved "that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."
The Arabs cannot have it both ways. They don't deserve to have the UN December 1948 resolution supported by the Israelis, if they fail to support the UN 1947 resolution. Only when and if the Arabs support both resolutions then they will have legitimate basis for demanding that the Israelis support the UN December 1948 resolution.
What has occurred in the interim is merely that Israel has refused to honor the UN's resolution through legalistic rationalizations in their attempt to keep Israel a discriminatorily and oppressivly ethnocentric state.
The Arabs living in Israel are not oppressed. The Arabs living outside Israel are paying an earned penalty for their failure to comply with the UN's 1947 resolution and their attempt to destroy Israel.
At that time in 1948, I personally heard the Arabs being quoted on ABC, CBS, and NBC news programs as urging the Arabs in Israel to flee so that they could avoid becoming accidental casualties of the ensuing Arab et al attack on Israel.
The Arabs cannot have it both ways. They don't deserve to have the UN December 1948 resolution supported by the Israelis, if they fail to support the UN 1947 resolution. Only when and if the Arabs support both resolutions then they will have legitimate basis for demanding that the Israelis support the UN December 1948 resolution.
The Arabs living in Israel are not oppressed. The Arabs living outside Israel are paying an earned penalty for their failure to comply with the UN's 1947 resolution and their attempt to destroy Israel.
You missed the point of my sarcasm.
Clearly, the lives of innocent Lebanese civilians are more important to the Lebanese than the lives of Jews. Shame on them? No, I don't think that is anything for them to be ashamed of.
Clearly, the lives of innocent Israeli civilians are more important to the Israelis than the lives of Lebanese. Shame on them? No, I don't think that is anything for them to be ashamed of.
The point is that demanding self-sacrifice from either on behalf of the other is both a monstrous and insane bias.
War is hell because it cannot be managed like a sporting event where penalties can be assessed by purely objective referees to restrain either party from crippling or killing the other.
War is a battle for survival by those fighting to defend themselves against those determined to destroy those defending themselves.
Those Lebanese and Israeli casualties would not have occurred if the Israelis were not attacked in the first place.
Blame the real culprits.
Blame those who initiated mass murder and not those who try to protect themselves against mass murderers by attempting to kill those mass murderers.
ican wrote:At that time in 1948, I personally heard the Arabs being quoted on ABC, CBS, and NBC news programs as urging the Arabs in Israel to flee so that they could avoid becoming accidental casualties of the ensuing Arab et al attack on Israel.
You are basing your opinions on what you recall hearing 60 years ago? It goes without saying that the historians I mentioned who've researched the extant archival material are, to put it in a most profoundly understated manner, more credible than you and your 60 year old recollections. That you base your disagreement with those historians on these recollections of yours is an absurdly laughable joke.
Who are these alleged historians? What makes you think they are competent, and honest? The fundamental fact is that thousands of Palestinians did not choose to flee Israel. Their progeny continue to reside in Israel. Those that did choose to flee did so at the urging of their leaders.
Quote:The Arabs cannot have it both ways. They don't deserve to have the UN December 1948 resolution supported by the Israelis, if they fail to support the UN 1947 resolution. Only when and if the Arabs support both resolutions then they will have legitimate basis for demanding that the Israelis support the UN December 1948 resolution.
If the Palestinians can't have it both ways, then the Israelis shouldn't have it both ways either. If they support UN resolution 181, then they have to support UN resolution 194. According to your line of reasoning it then follows that only when and if the Israelis support both resolutions then they will have legitimate basis for demanding that the Palestinians support the UN resolution 181.
It is a fact that the Arabs, rather than agree with the UN's 1947 resolution to partition Palestine into an Arab state and an Israeli state, repeatedly waged war against the state of Israel in order to eliminate it. For those Arabs to truly expect Israel to permit their return under those conditions is preposterous.
The Israelis would have to be damn fools and/or masochists to permit those Arabs that fled Israel during the 1948 war to return without proclaiming the end of their war on Israel and without their approval of the existence of Israel in Palestine.
Quote:The Arabs living in Israel are not oppressed. The Arabs living outside Israel are paying an earned penalty for their failure to comply with the UN's 1947 resolution and their attempt to destroy Israel.
The Palestinians living in Israel are discriminated against. The Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories are oppressed. Only moral cripples assert that the Palestinians are paying an earned penalty for their failure to comply with the UN's 1947 resolution and their attempt to destroy Israel, a state whose very existence is necessarily predicated on their discrimination and oppression.
Israel's very existence is necessarily predicated on the right of its citizens to freedom, independence, and self-government.
Yes, the Arabs living in Israel are discriminated against. They are denied having the same opportunity as those Arabs living outside Israel have to murder Jews in Israel.
Had German Americans moved to Germany just before WWII at the request of Germany, you can be sure that OE would not allow them to return.
With Israel, it is always a double standard wherein Israel is always at fault.