ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:Advacate has a blind spot in his brain; he can't register all the innocents killed by the IDF>.
It's you who has the blind spot--or perhaps a rotten spot--in your brain.
All those alleged innocents killed by IDF would never have been killed had so many of those Palestinian Arabs not living in Israel NOT persisted in their despicable efforts to murder Israelis.
That's no excuse. They are still innocents. Women and children have died who had done nothing wrong. Is it their fault that others in their society have done terrible things?
Blood doesn't wash off with excuses, Ican.
Cycloptichorn
Why not tell the those
Arab others that "blood doesn't wash off with excuses," Cyclop? They are the ones primarily responsible for both the deaths they perpetrate against the Israelis and the Arab deaths the Israelis inadvertently cause in their efforts to stop those
Arab others from killing Israelis.
You're wrong. Those who attack Israelis are responsible for the deaths they cause. When the Israelis counter-attack,
they are also responsible for the deaths they cause.
The Israelis are not forced to kill civilians just b/c others do. That's a ridiculous position.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:Advacate has a blind spot in his brain; he can't register all the innocents killed by the IDF>.
It's you who has the blind spot--or perhaps a rotten spot--in your brain.
All those alleged innocents killed by IDF would never have been killed had so many of those Palestinian Arabs not living in Israel NOT persisted in their despicable efforts to murder Israelis.
That's no excuse. They are still innocents. Women and children have died who had done nothing wrong. Is it their fault that others in their society have done terrible things?
Blood doesn't wash off with excuses, Ican.
Cycloptichorn
Why not tell the those
Arab others that "blood doesn't wash off with excuses," Cyclop? They are the ones primarily responsible for both the deaths they perpetrate against the Israelis and the Arab deaths the Israelis inadvertently cause in their efforts to stop those
Arab others from killing Israelis.
You're wrong. Those who attack Israelis are responsible for the deaths they cause. When the Israelis counter-attack,
they are also responsible for the deaths they cause.
The Israelis are not forced to kill civilians just b/c others do. That's a ridiculous position.
Cycloptichorn
No! I'm right! Your position is absurd. The Israelis are forced to kill civilians they cannot avoid killing, while killing the murdering Arabs to stop them from intentionally killing Israeli civilians. The murdering Arabs could save their own civilians simply by not willfully killing Israeli civilians. If and when the murdering Arabs stop, all the killing will stop. Until then, the murdering Arabs are exclusively responsible for all these deaths--both Arabs and Jews.
ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:Advacate has a blind spot in his brain; he can't register all the innocents killed by the IDF>.
It's you who has the blind spot--or perhaps a rotten spot--in your brain.
All those alleged innocents killed by IDF would never have been killed had so many of those Palestinian Arabs not living in Israel NOT persisted in their despicable efforts to murder Israelis.
That's no excuse. They are still innocents. Women and children have died who had done nothing wrong. Is it their fault that others in their society have done terrible things?
Blood doesn't wash off with excuses, Ican.
Cycloptichorn
Why not tell the those
Arab others that "blood doesn't wash off with excuses," Cyclop? They are the ones primarily responsible for both the deaths they perpetrate against the Israelis and the Arab deaths the Israelis inadvertently cause in their efforts to stop those
Arab others from killing Israelis.
You're wrong. Those who attack Israelis are responsible for the deaths they cause. When the Israelis counter-attack,
they are also responsible for the deaths they cause.
The Israelis are not forced to kill civilians just b/c others do. That's a ridiculous position.
Cycloptichorn
No! I'm right! Your position is absurd. The Israelis are forced to kill civilians they cannot avoid killing, while killing the murdering Arabs to stop them from intentionally killing Israeli civilians. The murdering Arabs could save their own civilians simply by not willfully killing Israeli civilians. If and when the murdering Arabs stop, all the killing will stop. Until then, the murdering Arabs are exclusively responsible for all these deaths--both Arabs and Jews.
First, this is just a ridiculously written paragraph. You sound like some sort of religious fanatic.
More importantly, you extrapolate individual guilt from others' actions. This is highly erroneous. Arabs, as a group, are not responsible for the actions of all of their members. To imply that, say, a group of Lebanese civilians - who may be trying to be peaceful and good citizens, never having harmed anyone - are somehow responsible for Jewish deaths, and can be killed because of this; you honestly believe that?
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:Advacate has a blind spot in his brain; he can't register all the innocents killed by the IDF>.
It's you who has the blind spot--or perhaps a rotten spot--in your brain.
All those alleged innocents killed by IDF would never have been killed had so many of those Palestinian Arabs not living in Israel NOT persisted in their despicable efforts to murder Israelis.
That's no excuse. They are still innocents. Women and children have died who had done nothing wrong. Is it their fault that others in their society have done terrible things?
Blood doesn't wash off with excuses, Ican.
Cycloptichorn
Why not tell the those
Arab others that "blood doesn't wash off with excuses," Cyclop? They are the ones primarily responsible for both the deaths they perpetrate against the Israelis and the Arab deaths the Israelis inadvertently cause in their efforts to stop those
Arab others from killing Israelis.
You're wrong. Those who attack Israelis are responsible for the deaths they cause. When the Israelis counter-attack,
they are also responsible for the deaths they cause.
The Israelis are not forced to kill civilians just b/c others do. That's a ridiculous position.
Cycloptichorn
No! I'm right! Your position is absurd. The Israelis are forced to kill civilians they cannot avoid killing, while killing the murdering Arabs to stop them from intentionally killing Israeli civilians. The murdering Arabs could save their own civilians simply by not willfully killing Israeli civilians. If and when the murdering Arabs stop, all the killing will stop. Until then, the murdering Arabs are exclusively responsible for all these deaths--both Arabs and Jews.
...
More importantly, you extrapolate individual guilt from others' actions. This is highly erroneous. Arabs, as a group, are not responsible for the actions of all of their members. To imply that, say, a group of Lebanese civilians - who may be trying to be peaceful and good citizens, never having harmed anyone - are somehow responsible for Jewish deaths, and can be killed because of this; you honestly believe that?
Cycloptichorn
Your favorite counter argument when you lack a legitmate one, is to claim I said or implied other than what I said or implied. I did not say anything that could be validly inferred to mean that I think, "Arabs, as a group, ARE responsible for the actions of all of their members."
I wrote:
Quote:The Israelis are forced to kill civilians they cannot avoid killing, while killing the murdering Arabs to stop them from intentionally killing Israeli civilians.
I'll say it more simply for you:
The Israelis are forced to kill good Arab civilians they do not possess the capability to avoid killing when killing bad Arabs. No one possesses that capability. Bad Arabs are committed to murdering Israeli Civilians. The Israelis are killing the bad Arabs in order to stop the bad Arabs from killing Israeli civilians. Israelis do not know any other survivable way to stop bad Arabs from murdering Israeli civilians.
I do not know any other survivable way for the Israelis to stop the bad Arabs from killing Israeli civilians.
Quote:
I do not know any other survivable way for the Israelis to stop the bad Arabs from killing Israeli civilians.
Through pursuit of peaceful ends to conflict.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:Quote:
I do not know any other survivable way for the Israelis to stop the bad Arabs from killing Israeli civilians.
Through pursuit of peaceful ends to conflict.
Cycloptichorn
Peaceful ends can only be achieved after victory is achieved. And even then much additional time is usually required (e.g., victory in WWII led to peace with the defeated after 7 years)
ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:Quote:
I do not know any other survivable way for the Israelis to stop the bad Arabs from killing Israeli civilians.
Through pursuit of peaceful ends to conflict.
Cycloptichorn
Peaceful ends can only be achieved after victory is achieved. And even then much additional time is usually required (e.g., victory in WWII led to peace with the defeated after 7 years)
I do not believe that your first statement is either factual or provable.
Cycloptichorn
Regarding Arab civilians getting killed, this is the fault of the Arab terrorists who regularly hide in, and operate from, civilian groupings.
Dennis Miller tells the truth.
For those who don't know, Dennis Miller is a comedian
Who has a show called Dennis Miller Live on HBO.
He is not Jewish.
He recently said the following about the Modest situation:
"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service
To all Americans who still don't get it,
I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs,
Which is all you really need.
Here we go:
The Palestinians want their own country.
There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.
It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient
But is really a modern invention
Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war,
Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan,
And there were no "Palestinians."
As soon as the Jews took over and started growing
Oranges as big as basketballs,
What do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians,"
Weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."
So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian"
Anymore to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy
At our deaths, until someone points out they're being taped.
Instead, let's call them what they are:
"Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life
And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In
The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."
I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.
How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."
Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country.
Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't.
They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years,
Especially two years ago at Camp David
But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights
And garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse,
You actually have to figure out some way to make a living.
That's no fun. No, they want what all the other
Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.
They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course --
that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.
Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity"
As their textbooks call it --
For the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries
To divert the attention of their own people
Away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate,
Poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth,
And if you've ever been around God's Earth . . . You know
that's really saying something.
It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic
About the great history and culture of the Muslim Midleast.
Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the
World since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that
One.
Chew this around & spit it out: 500 million Arabs; 5 million Jews.
Think of all the Arab countries as a football field,
And Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it.
And now these same folks swear that, if Israel gives them
Half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals..
Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to
Obliterate the tiny country and the constant din
Of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?
Oh, that? We were just kidding.
My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day:
Just reverse the Numbers.
Imagine 500 million Jews and 5 million Arabs.
I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it .
Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades
And dynamite to themselves? Of course not.
Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations
To drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense.
Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.
Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their
Bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.
No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace,
The worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.
Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that,
With vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as
Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible,
And, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of
Super models who've just had their drugs taken away.
However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger
of losing moral weight. We've already lost some.
After September 11th, our president told us and the world he was going
to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them.
Beautiful.
Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of
an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day),
start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.
If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day,
we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration
to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean
and east of the Jordan.
Cycloptichorn wrote:ican711nm wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:Quote:
I do not know any other survivable way for the Israelis to stop the bad Arabs from killing Israeli civilians.
Through pursuit of peaceful ends to conflict.
Cycloptichorn
Peaceful ends can only be achieved after victory is achieved. And even then much additional time is usually required (e.g., victory in WWII led to peace with the defeated after 7 years)
I do not believe that your first statement is either factual or provable.
Cycloptichorn
I am not surprised that you "do not believe that [my] first statement is either factual or provable."
You neglected to provide at least one counter example to support your position. I'm not surprised by that either. That too has been your standard modus operandi for sometime.
FULL STATEMENT
In the case where you have members of one adversary group killing members of another adversary group, and members of that other adversary group retaliating in kind, peaceful ends can only be achieved after victory is achieved by one or the other adversary group.
Since you do not believe that statement is "either factual or provable," surely you know of at least one example that shows that statement is not
always true.
Ican writes
Quote:In the case where you have members of one adversary group killing members of another adversary group, and members of that other adversary group retaliating in kind, peaceful ends can only be achieved after victory is achieved by one or the other adversary group.
This is generally the way it goes. And as much as I respect and appreciate GeorgeOB1, I have to wonder about his rationale that because Israel kills more Palestinians than Palestinians are able to kill Israelis, this somehow makes Israel the worst villain of the two. At least that seems to be the way it is often presented.
Yet in World War II, Germany killed many more Russians than Russians killed Germans, yet Russia was neither clear victim nor aggressor in that conflict. And once the Allies accomplished sufficient goals to invade Germany, the Allies killed many more Germans than Germans were able to kill the invaders and the Allies prevailed. In neither case was peace between any of these nations likely without Germany being bombed and shelled and otherwise bludgeoned into submission. Certainly we would not have achieved the degree of peace that we have today.
Certainly we killed hundreds of thousands more Japanese than Japanese were able to kill Americans or other allies. Does anybody think America was the aggressor in that conflict? Now the two countries are the best of friends; something that would not likely have happened if they had just quit making war before an unconditional surrender.
The last time Israel and Hezbollah went at it in all out conflict, many quietly hoped that nobody would intervene this time until one or the other won. And that would likely have finished it at least for a generation or two.
I don't think you can guage villain versus victim, however, by the military power held by one side.
As it is, stopping wars in mid-outcome seems to be a certain guarantee of more war later on.
CI and Cyclo, as fervent apologists for the Pals and Hez, will never hesitate to present the disingenuous statement. They have no valid arguments, so they just throw out any absurd statement that comes to mind.
Advocate, You know better; when anything on Israel is posted from any source other than our personal opinion, it's up to you to show any claims made to be wrong - by any reputable source you can provide.
My personal opinion is based on my readings by both Jews and Palestinians, and also from meeting and talking with Palestinians in Israel.
We are not apologists for the Pals and Hez; we express our POV from trying to understand what is ethical, legal, and humane. I try to understand the position of the Jew or Palestinian by putting myself "in their shoes;" not actually, but in my mind. If we present any "disingenuous," or "absurd" statements, please challenge them on their own merits, and explain why they are "disingenuous" or "absurd"? Blanket negative statements are not only unfair, but shows you have no credible argument against them. In the future, this will be my standing opinion when you don't challenge any statement, but resort to adhominems.
cicerone imposter wrote:Advocate, You know better; when anything on Israel is posted from any source other than our personal opinion, it's up to you to show any claims made to be wrong - by any reputable source you can provide.
My personal opinion is based on my readings by both Jews and Palestinians, and also from meeting and talking with Palestinians in Israel.
We are not apologists for the Pals and Hez; we express our POV from trying to understand what is ethical, legal, and humane. I try to understand the position of the Jew or Palestinian by putting myself "in their shoes;" not actually, but in my mind. If we present any "disingenuous," or "absurd" statements, please challenge them on their own merits, and explain why they are "disingenuous" or "absurd"? Blanket negative statements are not only unfair, but shows you have no credible argument against them. In the future, this will be my standing opinion when you don't challenge any statement, but resort to adhominems.
Puleezzzz! You and Cyclo made so many such statements. For instance, you frequently point out that more Pal civilians die. But you know very well why -- the Pal terrorists hide among the people. You said that the Pals are slaves -- slaves who fire thousands of missiles into Israel Etc., etc.
Advocate wrote: "...you frequently point out that more Pal civilians die..."
This is a FACT. You can try to refute it as "disingenuous or absurd," but it's still a fact. The Israelis have killed more innocent children and others than the other way around. If you can't understand numbers, you are the one who is "disingenuous."
Assuming it is true arguendo that more Pal civilians are killed, your failure to point out that the Pal militants hide among the civilians makes it disingenuous. You make it look like Pal civilians are targeted, as are the Israeli civilians.
So what should Israel do -- surrender to the Pals?
In a word, yes. Give Pals equal treatment - as in a real democracy - both legal and economic. Stop building more settlements in the West Bank, and quit stealing Pal's property. Destroy the walls that separate the Pals from the Jews - including the one surrounding Bethlehem.
Give the Pals more freedoms equal to what the Jews have in Israel.
Providing equality to Pals will diminish, if not completely eliminate, suicide bombers. But as in in country - including the US - there will always exist extremists who will kill others for their misguided political beliefs.
What the Jews of Israel have been doing and are still doing is wrong-headed, and will never bring peace to Israel. It only creates inequality and resentment - and suicide bombers.
