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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Dec, 2007 11:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Advcate, Your ability look at history while ignoring the current status of Palestinians in Israel is telling. One can look back at history to find atrocitities committed by most countries that had a navy. Germany exterminated four million Jews; they are one of our strongest allies today. Japan committed atrocities ranked about the most atrocious in history; they are also one of our strongest ally.

Learn a bit of history and humility; it'll do you good.


Huh????????????????
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Dec, 2007 11:20 pm
ican711nm wrote:
A large majority of these Palestinians were requested to leave by the Arabs about to attack Israel Many relocated to the West Bank of the Jordan River, administered by Jordan, or the Gaza Strip, governed by Egypt. These were the first Palestinian refugees.

Then, in 1967, Israel defeated the about to attack


You should acknowledge when you're interjecting your own assertions into a direct quote, ican't. The lines in blue were not written by the author, you shyster.

It is merely opinion that "A large majority of these Palestinians were requested to leave by the Arabs about to attack Israel" in 1948, and that in 1967 the military forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon were, "about to attack."
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Dec, 2007 11:37 pm
They all did attack first. Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran, Jordan shelled Israel despite being asked by Israel to stand down, and Syria attacked strongly, all before Israel attacked those countries.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 10:14 am
The important sentence in the above article with my highlight.even before Israel declared independence, in 1948, and the ensuing war resulted in about 750,000 Palestinians fleeing their native villages, many of them forced to do so by the Israeli army.

It is evident from history since then that Israel has continued its subjugation of the Palestinians taking away their legal and property rights. Who amongst us would accept such living conditions in a democracy?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 12:50 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
A large majority of these Palestinians were requested to leave by the Arabs about to attack Israel Many relocated to the West Bank of the Jordan River, administered by Jordan, or the Gaza Strip, governed by Egypt. These were the first Palestinian refugees.

Then, in 1967, Israel defeated the about to attack


You should acknowledge when you're interjecting your own assertions into a direct quote, ican't. The lines in blue were not written by the author, you shyster.

It is merely opinion that "A large majority of these Palestinians were requested to leave by the Arabs about to attack Israel" in 1948, and that in 1967 the military forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon were, "about to attack."

In large blue I inserted the truth. Those insertions were my attempt to provide a more complete description of the true history of events as I know it to have been from multiple news reports I personally heard and observed in 1948 and 1967.

However, I do agree that I was remiss in not making it more obvious those blue comments were my insertions and not emphasis of what was written in the original article. It has been for sometime my practice to express in large blue my personal insertions within quoted statements, and to express in larger black that which is in the quote that I think requires emphasis.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 01:29 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The important sentence in the above article with my highlight.even before Israel declared independence, in 1948, and the ensuing war resulted in about 750,000 Palestinians fleeing their native villages, many of them --but much less than half of them--forced to do so by the Israeli army.[/b]

It is evident from history since then that Israel has continued its subjugation of the Palestinians taking away their legal and property rights. Who amongst us would accept such living conditions in a democracy?

This was inserted by me: --but much less than half of them--

You asked: "Who amongst us would accept such living conditions in a democracy?"

Obviously over a million Arabs living in Israel are not suffering such conditions. If all those Arabs, who fled but were not "forced to do so by the Israeli army," had not fled and had not subsequently supported intolerance of the existence of Israel, they would not have suffered the "taking away of their legal and property rights."

The currently dispossessed Palestinian Arabs could recover "their legal rights and property rights" if they were to support the existence of Israel. Continuing failure of the Palestinians to support the existence of Israel, will continue to cost them even more than "their legal rights and property rights."

The currently dispossessed Arabs are suffering the price of their own savage behavior or their own tolerance of the savage behavior of their fellows.

REALITY
Israel is practicing self-defense against on-going violent threats and violent actions. When the need for that self-defense ends, that self-defense will end.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 06:18 pm
ican wrote:
In large blue I inserted the truth. Those insertions were my attempt to provide a more complete description of the true history of events as I know it to have been from multiple news reports I personally heard and observed in 1948 and 1967.



There is, to put it mildly, a disparity between "the true history of events" as you know it, and the true history of events themselves. What you know has been broadly dismissed as Zionist propaganda by Israeli historians such as Aharon Cohen who in the 1970's pointed out in his book "Israel and the Arab World" the complete collapse of the Arab leadership that contributed to the disorder among the Arab populace, but that in actuality the Arab leadership, namely the Arab Higher Committee had tried to forestall the Arab flight during the 1948 war. In 1979 Simha Flapan wrote in his book "Zionism and the Palestinians" that "the hard core of refugees were deliberately intimidated into a panic flight, or driven out by force even after the war was over." The scholarship most damaging to the Zionist propaganda that you adhere to is perhaps that of Benny Morris who in the late 1980's through his book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" brought to light the ethnic cleansing that was perpetrated by the Zionist forces as they swept through the Arab populated areas that came under their control during the 1948 war. The Arab populace ran in terror due to the increasing accounts of Jewish atrocities committed against the Arab villages that they'd subjugate. In response to claims that he ignored claims that the Arab leadership ordered the Palestinians to flee, Morris has stated that there is no evidence for these claims, what's more, he had uncovered documentation showing that the Arab leadership gave orders to the Palestinians to remain in their homes.

As far as the 1967 war goes, the concentration of forces along the Egypt/Israel border was a defensive posture as revealed in a letter to the United Nations Security Force in Egypt from the United Arab Republic which read, "To your information, I gave my instructions to all U.A.R. armed forces to be ready for action against Israel, the moment it might carry out any aggressive action against any Arab country. Due to these instructions our troops are already concentrated in Sinai on our eastern border. For the sake of complete security of all U.N. troops which install OPs along our borders, I request that you issue your orders to withdraw all these troops immediately." The Israeli military, going on past victories over the Arabs such as the aforementioned 1948 war, and the 1956 war, had determined that the Arab forces were not a threat. Martin van Creveld wrote in his book, "Defending Israel: A Controversial Plan Toward Peace" "the concept of 'defensible borders' was not even part of the IDF's own vocabulary. Anyone who will look for it in the military literature of the time will do so in vain. Instead, Israel's commanders based their thought on the 1948 war and, especially, their 1956 triumph over the Egyptians in which, from then Chief of Staff Dayan down, they had gained their spurs. When the 1967 crisis broke they felt certain of their ability to win a 'decisive, quick and elegant' victory, as one of their number, General Haim Bar Lev, put it, and pressed the government to start the war as soon as possible".
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 08:54 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
ican wrote:
In large blue I inserted the truth. Those insertions were my attempt to provide a more complete description of the true history of events as I know it to have been from multiple news reports I personally heard and observed in 1948 and 1967.



There is, to put it mildly, a disparity between "the true history of events" as you know it, and the true history of events themselves. What you know has been broadly dismissed as Zionist propaganda by Israeli historians such as Aharon Cohen who in the 1970's pointed out in his book "Israel and the Arab World" the complete collapse of the Arab leadership that contributed to the disorder among the Arab populace, but that in actuality the Arab leadership, namely the Arab Higher Committee had tried to forestall the Arab flight during the 1948 war. In 1979 Simha Flapan wrote in his book "Zionism and the Palestinians" that "the hard core of refugees were deliberately intimidated into a panic flight, or driven out by force even after the war was over." The scholarship most damaging to the Zionist propaganda that you adhere to is perhaps that of Benny Morris who in the late 1980's through his book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" brought to light the ethnic cleansing that was perpetrated by the Zionist forces as they swept through the Arab populated areas that came under their control during the 1948 war. The Arab populace ran in terror due to the increasing accounts of Jewish atrocities committed against the Arab villages that they'd subjugate. In response to claims that he ignored claims that the Arab leadership ordered the Palestinians to flee, Morris has stated that there is no evidence for these claims, what's more, he had uncovered documentation showing that the Arab leadership gave orders to the Palestinians to remain in their homes.

Clearly you or I have a problem. Who or what shall we believe? You are asking me to reject all I personally heard and/or saw on the news in 1948 about this topic. Maybe I should. Then again maybe I shouldn't.

I'll try to find some actual Arab and Israeli witnesses to these events. I'll have to learn from them why so many Arabs chose not to flee, but to remain in Israel during the 1948 war.


As far as the 1967 war goes, the concentration of forces along the Egypt/Israel border was a defensive posture as revealed in a letter to the United Nations Security Force in Egypt from the United Arab Republic which read, "To your information, I gave my instructions to all U.A.R. armed forces to be ready for action against Israel, the moment it might carry out any aggressive action against any Arab country. Due to these instructions our troops are already concentrated in Sinai on our eastern border. For the sake of complete security of all U.N. troops which install OPs along our borders, I request that you issue your orders to withdraw all these troops immediately." The Israeli military, going on past victories over the Arabs such as the aforementioned 1948 war, and the 1956 war, had determined that the Arab forces were not a threat. Martin van Creveld wrote in his book, "Defending Israel: A Controversial Plan Toward Peace" "the concept of 'defensible borders' was not even part of the IDF's own vocabulary. Anyone who will look for it in the military literature of the time will do so in vain. Instead, Israel's commanders based their thought on the 1948 war and, especially, their 1956 triumph over the Egyptians in which, from then Chief of Staff Dayan down, they had gained their spurs. When the 1967 crisis broke they felt certain of their ability to win a 'decisive, quick and elegant' victory, as one of their number, General Haim Bar Lev, put it, and pressed the government to start the war as soon as possible".

Clearly, this allegation is a fraud. Its too illogical to explain Israel's behavior after the 1967 war.The build up of forces on the borders of Palestine by the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians, et al, was not defensive at all. Israel did not even contemplate an attack across these borders until that build up of forces on those borders began.

After the 1967 war, Israel negotiated peace with Egypt and Jordan that included a return of the Egyptian and Jordanian lands that Israel had conquered.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 09:30 pm
The Mideast: A Century of Conflict
Part 4: The 1967 Six Day War

Listen to Part 4 of Mike Shuster's series.

Read a transcript of Part 4 of Mike Shuster's series.

See maps of Israel's borders before and after the Six Day War.


Map of Israeli conquests in the 1967 Six Day War.
Source: Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 7th edition - Sir Martin Gilbert; Publisher: Routledge (Taylor & Francis), 2002; ISBN: 0415281172 (paperback), 0415281164 (hardback); Map: NPR Online
View detailed map



Israeli troops in Jerusalem during the Six Day War.
Photo courtesy MultiEducator-The Multimedia History Company
View complete photo

Oct. 3, 2002 -- No Arab state had made peace with Israel, and in 1967, events conspired to bring war between Israel and its neighbors -- Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

NPR Diplomatic Correspondent Mike Shuster reports on the Six Day War and its aftermath in the fourth segment of the Morning Edition series on the history of the Middle East conflict.

"In 1967, the mood in the Middle East was ugly," Shuster reports. "Israel, independent since 1948, was surrounded by Arab states dedicated to its eradication. Egypt was ruled by Gamal Abdel Nasser, a firebrand nationalist whose army was the strongest in the Arab Middle East. Syria was governed by the radical Baathist Party, constantly issuing threats to push Israel into the sea."

The Israelis attacked Egypt first, on June 5, 1967, in what most historians say was a defensive move. In the spring of that year, the Soviet Union had led the radical government in Damascus to believe that Israel was planning to invade Syria. Syria shared this misinformation with Nasser. The Egyptian leader closed the Gulf of Aqaba to shipping, cutting off Israel's primary oil supplies. He also ordered United Nations peacekeepers to leave the Sinai Peninsula. And he sent scores of tanks and hundreds of troops into the Sinai toward Israel.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 09:56 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The Mideast: A Century of Conflict
Part 4: The 1967 Six Day War

Listen to Part 4 of Mike Shuster's series.

Read a transcript of Part 4 of Mike Shuster's series.

See maps of Israel's borders before and after the Six Day War.


Map of Israeli conquests in the 1967 Six Day War.
Source: Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 7th edition - Sir Martin Gilbert; Publisher: Routledge (Taylor & Francis), 2002; ISBN: 0415281172 (paperback), 0415281164 (hardback); Map: NPR Online
View detailed map



Israeli troops in Jerusalem during the Six Day War.
Photo courtesy MultiEducator-The Multimedia History Company
View complete photo

Oct. 3, 2002 -- No Arab state had made peace with Israel, and in 1967, events conspired to bring war between Israel and its neighbors -- Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

NPR Diplomatic Correspondent Mike Shuster reports on the Six Day War and its aftermath in the fourth segment of the Morning Edition series on the history of the Middle East conflict.

"In 1967, the mood in the Middle East was ugly," Shuster reports. "Israel, independent since 1948, was surrounded by Arab states dedicated to its eradication. Egypt was ruled by Gamal Abdel Nasser, a firebrand nationalist whose army was the strongest in the Arab Middle East. Syria was governed by the radical Baathist Party, constantly issuing threats to push Israel into the sea."

The Israelis attacked Egypt first, on June 5, 1967, in what most historians say was
a defensive move.[/b][/color] In the spring of that year, the Soviet Union had led the radical government in Damascus to believe that Israel was planning to invade Syria. Syria shared this misinformation with Nasser.[/size=18] The Egyptian leader closed the Gulf of Aqaba to shipping, cutting off Israel's primary oil supplies. He also ordered United Nations peacekeepers to leave the Sinai Peninsula. And he sent scores of tanks and hundreds of troops into the Sinai toward Israel.[/size]
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2007 04:12 pm
Egypt blocked the straits of Tiran, which was an act of war, and first aggression in the 6-Day War. Egypt then marched on Israel, telling its allies to join in on the attack.

It is pure BS to accuse Israel of being the aggressor. But this is so typical of the anti-Israel bias here.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2007 05:50 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, You are an idiot first class; you don't promote democracy by subjugating the others in your country. You create hatred and suicde bombers.

You do promote democracy by first conquering those not in your country who are trying to exterminate your country, and then purging them of their savage ways. Israel is not subjugating the Arabs in Israel. Israel is defending itself from Arabs outside its country, who are trying to subjugate Israel.

You create hatred by people whose country you are attempting to exterminate by mass murdering its civilians.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2007 05:53 pm
ican, If you call the walls of Bethlehem "not subjugation," you're about as stupid as they come.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2007 06:01 pm
Advocate wrote:
Egypt blocked the straits of Tiran, which was an act of war, and first aggression in the 6-Day War.

There was no armed attack in Egypt's blocking of the straits.
Quote:
Egypt then marched on Israel, telling its allies to join in on the attack.

When did Egypt march on Israel before Israel's first strike?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2007 07:28 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Egypt blocked the straits of Tiran, which was an act of war, and first aggression in the 6-Day War.

There was no armed attack in Egypt's blocking of the straits.
Quote:
Egypt then marched on Israel, telling its allies to join in on the attack.

When did Egypt march on Israel before Israel's first strike?


In the 1967 war, Egypt didn't really get to do much marching on Israel.

Shame on Israel?

Israel made a pre-emptive strike before that marching by Egyptian troops on Israel had begun. Israel made this strike in hopes of minimizing their future losses. Their pre-emptive strike worked. Israel made a commitment not to invade Egypt again and gave back the Egyptian land they conquered, in return for a commitment by Egypt they would not again threaten to eliminate Israel. So far Egypt has kept this commitment, and Israel has kept theirs.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2007 09:18 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Egypt blocked the straits of Tiran, which was an act of war, and first aggression in the 6-Day War.

There was no armed attack in Egypt's blocking of the straits.
Quote:
Egypt then marched on Israel, telling its allies to join in on the attack.

When did Egypt march on Israel before Israel's first strike?


So are you saying that as long as someone isnt attacked it isnt an act of war?

If a foreign power were to blockade the US coasts and turn every ship around that was entering or leaving the US, that isnt an act of war since they didnt fire on any of those ships?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2007 10:41 pm
mysteryman wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
There was no armed attack in Egypt's blocking of the straits.

So are you saying that as long as someone isnt attacked it isnt an act of war?


Not necessarily. But in this case it was a pretext for the war.

Quote:
If a foreign power were to blockade the US coasts and turn every ship around that was entering or leaving the US, that isnt an act of war since they didnt fire on any of those ships?


While the US' coasts are US waters, the Strait of Tiran isn't Israeli water, it's water between Egyptian and Saudi Arabia that's controlled by the former. Israel's claimed right to use Egyptian water was one of the pretexts for the war.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2007 11:35 pm
ican711nm wrote:


In the 1967 war, Egypt didn't really get to do much marching on Israel.

Shame on Israel?

Israel made a pre-emptive strike before that marching by Egyptian troops on Israel had begun. Israel made this strike in hopes of minimizing their future losses. Their pre-emptive strike worked. Israel made a commitment not to invade Egypt again and gave back the Egyptian land they conquered, in return for a commitment by Egypt they would not again threaten to eliminate Israel. So far Egypt has kept this commitment, and Israel has kept theirs.


Actually, it took another war, the 1973 war, to get the peace negotiations going between the two states. Nothing was resolved after the '67 war, and it exacerbated some already sore issues.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 11:22 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, If you call the walls of Bethlehem "not subjugation," you're about as stupid as they come.



I guess you feel that Israel should just put out the welcome mat for the Pal suicide bombers.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 11:23 am
Advocate wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, If you call the walls of Bethlehem "not subjugation," you're about as stupid as they come.



I guess you feel that Israel should just put out the welcome mat for the Pal suicide bombers.


Ever heard of 'turning the other cheek?'

Gotta give a little to get a little

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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