ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

cicerone imposter wrote:

ican, Your ignorance is over-whelming. You're just lucky, you're not a Palestinian living in Israel.

I'm also lucky I'm not a Jew living in Israel.

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ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, Your ignorance is over-whelming. You're just lucky, you're not a Palestinian living in Israel.

I'm also lucky I'm not a Jew living in Israel.

The statistics are saying that Jews living in Israel are safer than Americans living in the United States (comparing the US homicide rate to Israel's combined rate of deaths from crime, suicide bombings and intifada-related military casualties).

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old europe wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, Your ignorance is over-whelming. You're just lucky, you're not a Palestinian living in Israel.

I'm also lucky I'm not a Jew living in Israel.

The statistics are saying that Jews living in Israel are safer than Americans living in the United States (comparing the US homicide rate to Israel's combined rate of deaths from crime, suicide bombings and intifada-related military casualties).

Statistics for what year are saying Jews are safer in Israel than Americans are in America?

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It is interesting to note that about four times as many Palestinians were killed "accidently" by Israelis as Israelis killed deliberately by Palestinians. Clearly Israeli carelesness is far more lethal than Palestinian malice.

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ican711nm wrote:

What statistics are saying Jews are safer in Israel than Americans are in America?

I only found complete numbers for each category for 2004.

So, there are the numbers from the Israel Foreign Ministry.

Number of Israelis killed in terror attacks: 117

Number of Israelis killed in suicide attacks: 15

That amounts to about 2 violent deaths / 100,000 population.

According to the Central Bureau of Statistics of Israel, there were 173 murders counted in 2004 (to be found in this publication here).

That amounts to 2.7 violent deaths / 100,000 population.

So, combining the number of murders and intifada deaths, the rate was 4.7 deaths per 100,000 population in 2004.

_______________________________________________

Looking at the US Department of Justice/FBI table of Crime in the United States, you will see a number of 16,148 for Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in 2004.

This amounts to a rate of 5.5 violent deaths per 100,000 population in 2004.

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ican, Can't you stop putting your foot in your mouth for once?

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georgeob1 wrote:

It is interesting to note that about four times as many Palestinians were killed "accidently" by Israelis as Israelis killed deliberately by Palestinians. Clearly Israeli carelesness is far more lethal than Palestinian malice.

While I have zero evidence your numbers are valid, I'll assume for now they are valid. One possibility is that the Israelis are more fanatical fighters than their opposition. The other possibility is that the Israelis do not know how to stop Israeli killers without killing those harboring Israeli killers.

Ask yourself: what were the Israelies doing while killing all those Palestinians "accidentally"? Was it that those Israeli damn fools actually thought they were defending themselves against a group of people who harbored in their midst those seeking to murder as many Israelis as they can? Yea, I think so.

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old europe wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
What statistics are saying Jews are safer in Israel than Americans are in America?

I only found complete numbers for each category for 2004.
...

According to the Central Bureau of Statistics of Israel, there were 173 murders counted in 2004 (to be found in this publication here).

That amounts to 2.7 violent deaths / 100,000 population.
So, combining the number of murders and intifada deaths, the rate was 4.7 deaths per 100,000 population in 2004.

_______________________________________________

Looking at the US Department of Justice/FBI table of Crime in the United States, you will see a number of 16,148 for Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in 2004.

This amounts to a rate of 5.5 violent deaths per 100,000 population in 2004.

Thank you, oe, for answering my question!

I think the greater rate of violent deaths in America than in Israel is offset by the greater benefits of living in America than living in Israel.

For example, I am free to fly over a much greater geographical area, and the bad guys have to travel greater distances in America than in Palestine to get me. Smile

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ican711nm wrote:

Ask yourself: what were the Israelies doing while killing all those Palestinians "accidentally"? Was it that those Israeli damn fools actually thought they were defending themselves against a group of people who harbored in their midst those seeking to murder as many Israelis as they can? Yea, I think so.

29.9.2000-25.7.2007

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces: 4,171
Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians: 41

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians: 704
Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians: 320

out of those mentioned above:

Palestinians who were the object of a targeted killing: 216
Palestinians who took part in the hostilities
and were killed by Israeli security forces: 1,361

Palestinians killed during the course of a targeted killing: 364
Palestinians who were killed by Israeli security forces
and it is not known if they were taking part in the hostilities: 596
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces: 845
Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities and were killed by
Israeli security forces ( not including the objects of targeted killings): 1,994

(numbers according to: B'Tselem - Israeli Information Center for Human Rights)

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ican711nm wrote:

Thank you, oe, for answering my question!

You're welcome.

ican711nm wrote:

I think the greater rate of violent deaths in America than in Israel is offset by the greater benefits of living in America than living in Israel.

<grins>

Well, you'd have to say that....

ican711nm wrote:

For example, I am free to fly over a much greater geographical area, and the bad guys have to travel greater distances in America than in Palestine to get me.

Well, yeah, you're into flying, right? Yes. You've definitely got more space there.

(If you were Russian, you'd have even more space. Like, 12 time zones. That would be cool. I think.)

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These numbers deserve repeating.

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces: 845
Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities and were killed by
Israeli security forces ( not including the objects of targeted killings): 1,994

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The Israelis are obviously a bunch of paranoids. They for no good reason keep demanding that the non-Israeli Palestinian Arabs declare that Israel has a right to exist before they will negotiate with those Arabs.

The Israelis are incapable of recognizing that the non-Israeli Palestinian Arabs would cease harboring terrorists in their midst dedicated to terminating Israel, if only they were granted by the Israelis full civil rights to come and go as they please in Israel, and were returned all that land Israel seized in the '67 war to its rightful owners.

The Israelis are in desperate need of strong persistent counseling. They cannot by themselves forget that 87 and 86 and 78 years ago hundreds of Jews were mass murdered by Palestinian terorists. Hell, that's old news. Besides almost all those Jews mass murdered in the 1920s would all be dead by now of natural causes anyway.

Just because some fringe groups of fanatic terrorists tried to terminate Israel after Israel declared its independence 59 years ago, is no reason for anyone to suspect those fanatics will do that again. So what that a bunch of neighboring states massed troops on Israel's borders and thereby threatened to terminate Israel 40 years ago, those states are no longer doing that. Besides, Israel should have waited until all those massed troops actually attacked Israel. Israel's preemptive strikes against those massed troops was extremely intolerant, cruel and inhuman treatment of those massed troops, who after all had families of their own.

The Israelis should realize by now that those Arab folks currently harboring Israeli hating terrorist fanatics, are only doing so to rehabilitate them, and encourage Israel to return land it conquered 40 years ago, plus let those Arab folks govern themselves without Israel's interference.

The solution is clear. The humane thing to do is send the population of Israel to competent rehabiltation facities in the diaspora.

Rolling Eyes

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cicerone imposter wrote:

At least 4,160 Palestinians and 1,023 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

The Pal insurgents don't wear uniforms. Thus, virtually all the Pal casualties were probably insurgents. A seasoned Israeli army would certainly be more effective than a rag-tag bunch of insurgents. Assuming your numbers are correct, this might account for the difference.

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When you quote stats, please state the sources. I gather that you are using Pal sources.

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Advocate wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
At least 4,160 Palestinians and 1,023 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

The Pal insurgents don't wear uniforms. Thus, virtually all the Pal casualties were probably insurgents. A seasoned Israeli army would certainly be more effective than a rag-tag bunch of insurgents. Assuming your numbers are correct, this might account for the difference.

I posted the numbers. You just have to go back one page.

I don't buy the notion that "virtually all the Pal casualties were probably insurgents". It's a bit annoying to repeat everything, but here we go:

Palestinians who were the object of a targeted killing: 216
Palestinians who took part in the hostilities
and were killed by Israeli security forces: 1,361

Palestinians killed during the course of a targeted killing: 364
Palestinians who were killed by Israeli security forces
and it is not known if they were taking part in the hostilities: 596
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces: 845
Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities and were killed by
Israeli security forces ( not including the objects of targeted killings): 1,994

(numbers according to: B'Tselem - Israeli Information Center for Human Rights)

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Advocate wrote:

When you quote stats, please state the sources. I gather that you are using Pal sources.

old europe, who originally posted the statistics, was very clear about his sources. They were the Israeli government Central Bureau of Statistics and a private organization, based in Israel, B'Teslam, which focuses on human rights violations in the Occupied Territories. Both sources are Israeli - not Palestinian.

Advocate wrote:

The Pal insurgents don't wear uniforms. Thus, virtually all the Pal casualties were probably insurgents. A seasoned Israeli army would certainly be more effective than a rag-tag bunch of insurgents. Assuming your numbers are correct, this might account for the difference.

An impressive rationalization, broad in its reach and stunning in the blatancy of the non sequitur on which it is based.

The IDF has certainly become "seasoned" in the extermination of Palestinians - the numbers here do speak for themselves. Sadly their 'seasoning' is more like that of the Nazi Brownshirts than that of a professional army. There is a truly terrible and perverse historical irony in this. However it is true - we become what we do. Oscar Wilde's story "A Picture of Dorian Grey" comes to mind.

The advocacy of Palestinian "acceptance" of the regime that has so oppressed them, put forward so insistently by the blind defenders of Zionist intolerance and oppression, defies all the historical precedents for the successful resolution of such issues. The notion that it could somehow happen defies human nature and common sense. However it is a useful mask for the real Zionist policy of driving out as many native Palestinians as possible from as much of the territory of the West Bank as possible. Zionists have systematically used this excuse as a mask to gain them time during the past four decades to pursue their misguided and unjust policies. This has been a political and moral error of truly historical proportions. It will lead to the eventual destruction of Israel, just as similar errors led to the destruction of previous oppressors in Nazi Germany and Apartheidt South Africa.

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georgeob1 wrote:

...
The advocacy of Palestinian "acceptance" of the regime that has so oppressed them, put forward so insistently by the blind defenders of Zionist intolerance and oppression, defies all the historical precedents for the successful resolution of such issues.

Well then, since you excuse the Palestinians from ever being obligated to offer "acceptance" of Israel's regime because allegedly Israel's regime "so oppressed them" (but not the one's living in Israel), then Israel has zero motivation for granting these Palestinians anything that is not in its immediate self interest to grant them. In fact, if it were true that the Palestinians will never accept Israel, then Israel has only three rational options:
(1) Leave Palestine;
(2) Maintain the status quo;
(3) Remove the non-Israel Palestinian Arabs from Palestine (e.g., exterminate, incarcerate, or export them).

As I perceive it, the Jews in Israel would rather die than leave Palestine.

The notion that it could somehow happen defies human nature and common sense. However it is a useful mask for the real Zionist policy of driving out as many native Palestinians as possible from as much of the territory of the West Bank as possible. Zionists have systematically used this excuse as a mask to gain them time during the past four decades to pursue their misguided and unjust policies. This has been a political and moral error of truly historical proportions. It will lead to the eventual destruction of Israel, just as similar errors led to the destruction of previous oppressors in Nazi Germany and Apartheidt South Africa.

I think it will eventually lead to the removal of the non-acceptance Arabs from Palestine.

This last paragraph of yours, George, reads like the Nazi propaganda against Jews that I as a young, born in America, resident heard on the radio frequently during the 1930s and 40s. Oh yes, you use the word Zionists to mask your bigotry, but your mask is porous. What were/are the Zionists? The Zionists were/are nothing more than a bunch of Jews who decided they'd had enough of pogroms in Europe and thought Palestine would be a better place to live and avoid them.

OK! Looks like they were wrong. For that error they do not deserve your rotten slanderous accusations.

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Accusations of anti Semitism are the ultimate cowardly refuge of those who must rationalize the oppression systematically practiced by the Zionist government of Israel, and who have exhausted their ability to further deny obvious truth. It is a sadly contemptible distortion.

Those who fault and despise the oppression and exterminations practiced by the Soviet Regime in Russia, do not necessarily hate all Russians or things Russian. Those who similarly hate the policies and practices of the Nazi government in Germany do not necessarily hate Germans and all things German. Those who reject and regret the black slavery practiced in America and the various forms of systematic discrimination that followed it, are not necessarily anti American.

Intolerance, exploitation, greed, and oppression of others are part of the human condition. No one is thoroughly exempt from it. The experience of having suffered these things does not either preclude or justify the subsequent infliction of these evils on others. The history of oppression of Jews in Europe does not immunize them or their children from the possibility of doing these wrongs to others. It doesn't justify it either.

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georgeob, Well said. Most of us know about the atrocities the Japanese committed in the Pacific. Some of the Japanese soldiers may have even been some relatives of ours, but I don't hate all Japanese. Similarly, Japan have made sex slaves of the peoples of Korea and China. That's about as cruel as humans can become against others, and the government of Japan still refuses to apologize to the victims - some of whom are still living.

As you said, nobody is immune from the atrocities committed by one group to another, but that doesn't give license to the victims to do the same to others at a later date/time. This world will never have peace.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

These numbers deserve repeating.

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces: 845
Palestinians who did not take part in the hostilities and were killed by
Israeli security forces ( not including the objects of targeted killings): 1,994

All for the sake of democracy. Are you against democracy or are you anti-israel, CI?

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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