ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Japan have made sex slaves of the peoples of Korea and China.

If you're literate, you must have read
"The Rape of Nankin" by Iris Chang.

There is no doubt that the Japanese tortured, murdered, raped...etc thousands upon thousands of Chinese during the forgotne holocaust of WWII.

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Miller wrote:

All for the sake of democracy. Are you against democracy or are you anti-israel, CI?

Miller,

Do you believe you have identified all the possibilities in your demand for self-categorization?

Do you concede the illogic of your question?

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The figures stated are stupid. Was the organization on hand during the conflicts to know, to a person, who was or was not an insurgent? Of course not.

Some extermination: the Pal population continues to explode, with the average age very young.

Again, I know how terrible it is that Israel defends itself. George would have the Jews just march into the sea and be done with it.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Accusations of anti Semitism are the ultimate cowardly refuge of those who must rationalize the oppression systematically practiced by the Zionist government of Israel, and who have exhausted their ability to further deny obvious truth. It is a sadly contemptible distortion.

Your response is a contemptible distortion. I said zero about anti-semitism. I accused you of expressed bigotry against the Zionists; not against all Jews--a bigotry like the form but not the actual content used by the Nazis.

Those who fault and despise the oppression and exterminations practiced by the Soviet Regime in Russia, do not necessarily hate all Russians or things Russian. Those who similarly hate the policies and practices of the Nazi government in Germany do not necessarily hate Germans and all things German. Those who reject and regret the black slavery practiced in America and the various forms of systematic discrimination that followed it, are not necessarily anti American.

Intolerance, exploitation, greed, and oppression of others are part of the human condition. No one is thoroughly exempt from it. The experience of having suffered these things does not either preclude or justify the subsequent infliction of these evils on others. The history of oppression of Jews in Europe does not immunize them or their children from the possibility of doing these wrongs to others. It doesn't justify it either.

The Jews in Israel are defending themselves as best they can against two groups of people: those that are providing sanctuary to the second group; and the second group that have declared Israel does not have a right to exist. Neither of these groups are included among those Arabs resident in Israel. Your criticism of how Israel defends itself against both groups is at best naive and at worst close minded.

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Straight from the Zionist manifesto.

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Advocate wrote:

The figures stated are stupid. Was the organization on hand during the conflicts to know, to a person, who was or was not an insurgent? Of course not.

Some extermination: the Pal population continues to explode, with the average age very young.

Again, I know how terrible it is that Israel defends itself. George would have the Jews just march into the sea and be done with it.

The Israeli suppression of the insurgency continues - it is an ongoing fact. Of course the organization in question was there.

I certainly can't attest to the accuracy of the figures or the objectivity of the organization that produced them. It is a Jewish advocacy group, concerned about the human cost of the violation of human rights attandant to the occupation of the West Bank. It has a point of view and is therefore subject to the human tendency to be selective in the reporting and interpretation of facts -- just as are the justifiers of Israeli policies on this thread.

You are right, the Palestinian population continues to grow at a rate that far outpaces that of Jews in Israel. Birthrates in Israel are low and there appears to be little remaining interest among the Jews of the Western world, and even Russia, to emigrate to Israel. It appears that Israel will either have to accelerate the killing of Palestinians, or find a way to live peacefully with them. In the 40 years that have passed since the Six Day War there seems to have been little effective movement towards a peaceful accomodation. Indeed the situation now is in fundamental ways worse and more dangerous for Israel than it was just after this war. In view of all this, I find it remarkable that you could advocate the continuation of the policies that have so much misery to all, and so much danger for Israel.

The Israelis don't need to march into the sea. Instead they need to find a way to live peacably with their neighbors. History shows us this can be accomplished only with justice and equal treatment for all. "Defending Israel" as it is currently done is very likely the best path to its eventual doom.

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georgeob1 wrote:

...
Intolerance, exploitation, greed, and oppression of others are part of the human condition. No one is thoroughly exempt from it. The experience of having suffered these things does not either preclude or justify the subsequent infliction of these evils on others. The history of oppression of Jews in Europe does not immunize them or their children from the possibility of doing these wrongs to others. It doesn't justify it either.

I agree with that. What I do not agree with is your failure to apply these same standards against those Arabs in Palestine who murder Jews in Palestine and those Arabs in Palestine that provide sanctuary to these murderers.

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It is a Jewish advocacy group that advocates alleged Pal rights. It seems to have little or no concern for the rights of Jews.

The Pals have rejected every attempt to reach a fair accord with Israel. The bottom line is that Israel will not agree to the dissolution of its state.

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Advocate, You should think before you post the following: It seems to have little or no concern for the rights of Jews.

Do you really believe this to be true?

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georgeob1 wrote:

...

The Israelis don't need to march into the sea. Instead they need to find a way to live peacably with their neighbors. History shows us this can be accomplished only with justice and equal treatment for all. "Defending Israel" as it is currently done is very likely the best path to its eventual doom.

Why do you not point out that the Arab terrorists and those Arabs providing them sanctuary also need to find a way to live peaceably with their neighbors?

I'm guessing of course, but it appears to me that you expect the Israelis to "turn the other cheek", when not blown off, to Arab terrorists, but not the Arabs to do the same. If so, why not expect the Arabs to do the same?

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The Israelis should say, we will not only recognize your right to exist, but also will grant you equal civil rights, IF you recognize our right to exist and grant us equal civil rights.

OR

The Arabs should say, we will not only recognize your right to exist, but also will grant you equal civil rights, IF you recognize our right to exist and grant us equal civil rights.

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ican, Have you ever heard the term, "action speaks louder than words?"

When the Isralis stop treating Palestinians like second-class citizens in their own country, just maybe, some progress might begin to come out of the shadows.

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I guess you haven't noticed that Palestine is not a country. The Pals could negotiate for their own country, but are insisting on the destruction of Israel. For this, Israel is supposed to embrace the Pals.

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Advocate, Read this LINK. It tells the story about how the Palestinians became the minority from being the majority before the Zionists took over Israel.

Try to be honest with your assessment about the speech - if you can. I know it'll be very difficult for you, but please challenge what the speaker says, not the speaker.

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ican711nm wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

...

The Israelis don't need to march into the sea. Instead they need to find a way to live peacably with their neighbors. History shows us this can be accomplished only with justice and equal treatment for all. "Defending Israel" as it is currently done is very likely the best path to its eventual doom.

Why do you not point out that the Arab terrorists and those Arabs providing them sanctuary also need to find a way to live peaceably with their neighbors?

I'm guessing of course, but it appears to me that you expect the Israelis to "turn the other cheek", when not blown off, to Arab terrorists, but not the Arabs to do the same. If so, why not expect the Arabs to do the same?

The situation is rather closely analogous to the centuries long conflict between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. Injustice and persecution inflicted by the (largely Scottish) Protestants in Northern Ireland was the cause of the resistance. Radical Groups of murderous terrorists arose on both sides of the conflict. The enormous relative power of the Unionists and their British supporters in the region was not sufficient to suppress the insurgence which lasted for centuries until, exhausted by the long struggle and finally repulsed by the injustices they had been supporting, the British people decided to end it and seek justice for both sides. By then the former Catholic minority was a numerical majority. The Ulster Unionists argued, like you, that they couldn't ease their discriminatory suppression until the IRA disarmed and finally renounced the centuries old resistance. All that accomplished was a prolongation of the conflict. Finally a peaceful compromise was adopted, based on the principle of the equality of all citizens and the end to the aspirations of dominance by sides. Peace and disarmament soon followed.

You are arguing for a protraction the conflict. This is a dangerous proposition for the Israelis, because time is most certainly not on their side.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Advocate, Read this LINK. It tells the story about how the Palestinians became the minority from being the majority before the Zionists took over Israel.

Try to be honest with your assessment about the speech - if you can. I know it'll be very difficult for you, but please challenge what the speaker says, not the speaker.

Certainly I will challenge the speaker, who has convinced himself that he is an innocent victim of the Jews.

He fails to say that the Jews had every right to settle part of the British Mandate. They didn't invade any existing country. The Jews legally bought vast amounts of land, and legally moved into land that was not owned. When Israel was formed, the Israelis certainly had the right to deem forfeited the property of Pals who deserted Israel so as to help the invading Arab armies.

The Pals don't accept the existence of Israel, and never will.

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Advocate: He fails to say that the Jews had every right to settle part of the British Mandate. They didn't invade any existing country. The Jews legally bought vast amounts of land, and legally moved into land that was not owned. When Israel was formed, the Israelis certainly had the right to deem forfeited the property of Pals who deserted Israel so as to help the invading Arab armies.

If you believe what you just wrote, there is no way anyone will be able to convince you that Jews stole Palestinian land illegally.

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Jerusalem land seizures 'illegal'

Israel's attorney general has told the government to call an immediate halt to confiscating Palestinian property in East Jerusalem under a 1950 land law.

Meni Mazuz said he was never consulted about the policy, which was secretly approved by the cabinet last summer.

He wrote to the finance minister saying the law could not be used for people absent from their property because of Israeli security measures.

The legislation entitles Israel to take Arab-owned land without compensation.

Palestinians say the cabinet decision was meant to allow the takeover of thousands of hectares of Palestinian-owned land around Jerusalem and cement Israel's control over the occupied eastern half of the city.

Hundreds of hectares have been seized in recent months, say lawyers for Palestinian landowners.

This decision is not legally defensible, that it cannot stand up to either Israeli or international law
Jacob Galanti
Justice Ministry spokesman

The United States has expressed concern about Israel's decision to apply the 1950 Absentee Property Law after it was brought to light last month.

A meeting between top Israeli envoy Dov Weisglass and US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is thought to have discussed the issue on Monday.

Not defensible

Mr Mazuz ruled that reviving the long-dormant law was illegal, justice ministry spokesman Jacob Galanti told journalists.

"Mazuz gave his opinion to ministers that this decision is not legally defensible, that it cannot stand up to either Israeli or international law," he said.

Many of the Palestinian "absentees" affected by implementation of the 55-year-old law are cut off from their land by new structures like roads to Jewish settlements and Israel's separation barrier, which has been deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice.

The law was originally devised to expropriate property belonging to the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who fled their homes during the conflict that accompanied the creation of Israel in 1948.

Israel captured East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza from Jordan in the 1967 war.

It then expanded Jerusalem's municipal boundaries into the West Bank and annexed the enlarged eastern Jerusalem, a move not recognised internationally.

Are you claiming that Israel's attorney general doesn't understand Jewish or international laws?

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Now you are getting into modern-day land issues. Moreover, you are being highly selective regarding who you quote.

Again, Palestine is not a country, and Israel has the right to settle there.

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Avocate, Show us Jewish law and international law that says Jews can take Palestinian land at will, because Israel has a "right to settle?"

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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