ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

georgeob1 wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

FACT 1
The million plus Arabs living in Israel do not have terrorists living in their midst that are terrorizing Israelis living in Israel.

FACT 2
Many of Israel's most populated areas are less than a mile from Israel's borders.

FACT 3
Travel across Israel's borders is strictly controlled for both Jews and Arabs.

FACT 4
Israeli Jews are scared of what their Arab neighbors living in non-Israel Palestine will do to them and are determined to defend themselves as best they can.

The first question for me then, is what must the Israelis do and what must the Arabs do to resolve their conflict?

Ican has assembled some relevant facts but has somehow avoided the obvious conclusion to which thery lead.

You are wrong. I have not avoided the fact that the situations in which the Israeli and non-Israeli Arabs find themselves in Palestine, are quite different. Please read my several previous recent exchanges with cicerone imposter.

Palestinians who are citizens of Israel and who are afforded (almost) the same rights as Israeli Jews, and who therefore have a stake in their community, live in peace with their neighbors in Israel. From this we can conclude that the unrest and distemper that afflicts the Palestinians in Gaza and the West bank is not a characteristic of the people, their culture or religion,

I agree!

Thus the revolutionary mentality that afflicts the others is a result of the different conditions under which they have lived for the past forty years - Israeli military occupation, oppression, and denial of political and economic rights. The remedy for this must necessarily involve the end of the conditions that have spawned the revolt.

I agree!

Priviledged people everywhere have lived in fear of those whom they oppress.

I agree!

This was as true in the ancien regime of France. the Apartheidt rule of the former nationalist South Africa, and the authoritarian states of the unlamented Soviet Empire as it is in greater Israel (or Palestine - whatever you wish to call it) today. The remedy for Israeli fears is not more oppression of the Palestiunians or the unrealistic hope that they can be induced to accept their servitude to a master Israeli state. The remedy must involve equal justice for all in the region. Until Israel is willing to accept this obvious fact, there will be no peace.

I think Israel understands this very well! What they also think for damn good reason is that the non-Israeli Arabs in Palestine do not think this based on the rhetoric and actions of the non-Israeli Arabs.

In shielding Israel from facing this fact the United States does Israel no good. We merely subsidize their delusions and protect them from the consequences of their misdeeds. Worse, we harm ourselves in the process.

The Israelis do not have to be shielded from this. They understand it very well. What has to be done is to stop shielding the non-Israeli Arabs from these principles. You, George, continually write as if the non-Israeli Arabs do not have this same obligation as the Israelis. Is that your intent?

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Advi wrote:

I think you have to be a pretty blatant liar to argue that Israel started the Six Day War.

Advi, you had originally stated that "the Pals and neighboring countries attacked Israel in '67."

This is quoted directly from your source:

"Because Israel feared fighting on three fronts (Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian), and because it preferred that fighting take place in Arab rather than Israeli territory, Israel decided to strike first. On the morning of June 5 the Israeli air force attacked Egypt, the largest force in the region."

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George stated:

" The remedy for Israeli fears is not more oppression of the Palestiunians or the unrealistic hope that they can be induced to accept their servitude to a master Israeli state. The remedy must involve equal justice for all in the region. Until Israel is willing to accept this obvious fact, there will be no peace."

What crap! Please explain how the Pals are serving the Israeli state. There has never been any servitude.

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InfraBlue wrote:

Advi wrote:
I think you have to be a pretty blatant liar to argue that Israel started the Six Day War.

Advi, you had originally stated that "the Pals and neighboring countries attacked Israel in '67."

This is quoted directly from your source:

"Because Israel feared fighting on three fronts (Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian), and because it preferred that fighting take place in Arab rather than Israeli territory, Israel decided to strike first. On the morning of June 5 the Israeli air force attacked Egypt, the largest force in the region."

Israel struck first in the Sinai (during a 60,000 man Egyptian invasion force advancing through the Sinai toward Israel). But Egypt struck Israel first in the war by blockading the Straits of Tiran, and shutting off a vital Israili port. That was the first act of war.

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Advocate wrote:

George stated:

" The remedy for Israeli fears is not more oppression of the Palestiunians or the unrealistic hope that they can be induced to accept their servitude to a master Israeli state. The remedy must involve equal justice for all in the region. Until Israel is willing to accept this obvious fact, there will be no peace."

What crap! Please explain how the Pals are serving the Israeli state. There has never been any servitude.

Israel forces its illegal actions against the Palestinians through the military and police. Try going to Israel as a Palestinian and see how you are treated. Otherwise, you're just talking through your arse. Do you understand anything about military checkpoints with arms? Probably not, but then, that's understandable. .

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Advocate wrote:
George stated:

" The remedy for Israeli fears is not more oppression of the Palestiunians or the unrealistic hope that they can be induced to accept their servitude to a master Israeli state. The remedy must involve equal justice for all in the region. Until Israel is willing to accept this obvious fact, there will be no peace."

What crap! Please explain how the Pals are serving the Israeli state. There has never been any servitude.

Israel forces its illegal actions against the Palestinians through the military and police. Try going to Israel as a Palestinian and see how you are treated. Otherwise, you're just talking through your arse. Do you understand anything about military checkpoints with arms? Probably not, but then, that's understandable. .

CI, I guess you are a bit dense. The Pals DO NOT serve Israel. Indeed, Israel has checkpoints, which became necessary to protect Israel and settlers from bomb and other attacks. This is not servitude.

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Yes it is; at gunpoint. Have you ever argued with anyone holding a gun?

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servitude
One entry found for servitude.

Main Entry: ser·vi·tude
Pronunciation: 's&r-v&-"tüd, -"tyüd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French servitute, from Latin servitudo slavery, from servus slave
1 : a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life
2 : a right by which something (as a piece of land) owned by one person is subject to a specified use or enjoyment by another

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Gee, how cute! But wouldn't you agree that the service is pretty bad?

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When it's bad, I tip only 10 percent.

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Such servitude as the non-Israeli Palestinian Arabs suffer is the price Israel demands from them for their freedom to murder Israelis. I think it a cheap price to pay for such freedom.

These Arabs demand that freedom regardless of its price, because they have zero tolerance for Israel remaining in Palestine. Granting those same Arabs fully equal rights will not offset the value to them of freedom to murder Israelis.

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ican, Your ignorance is over-whelming. You're just lucky, you're not a Palestinian living in Israel.

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The Pals constructively built the roadblocks by constantly targeting innocent Jewish civilians.

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Nonsense. The roadblocks were set up very soon after the 1967 War - long before the Intifada began. I travelled extensively by car in Israel in the early 1970s and ran in to numerous roadblocks in and around the West Bank. The experience of a cheerful but insolent IDF soldier of 18 or so years levelling his automatic weapon at the driver just feet from the car window was a routine occurrence. Moreover, as the systematic Israeli construction of Jewish Settlements progressed, the number of roadblocks "protecting" them and further isolating the Palestinian communities increased rapidly -- and all quite independently of any Palestinian resistence..

As you noted earlier the West Bank Palestinians "loved" working for Israeli companies and businesses. I doubt that they were the managers of these enterprises - they were instead a source of cheap labor - just as were the Bantu people in Apartheidt South Africa.. Hence the reference to servitude.

The injustice and oppression Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people is the cause of the Palestinian resistence -- in precisely the same way as the Injustice of the British and Stormont governments in Northern Ireland was the cause of the resistence there; and in precisely the same way as the injustice inflicted on French pesants and urban poor was the cause of the French Revolution (and the massacre of many aristocrats). For you (or Ican) to suggest that the Palestinians must first accept the Israeli government as it is and their subordinate status in respect to it as a precondition for any resolution of the problem ios simply contrary to both human nature and all the historical precedents for such situations.

History suggests that the long term future is fairly clear. Continued Israeli oppression and the demographic differences between Jews and Palestinians in the region will eventually sweep Israel away, just as were previous oppressors in Northern Ireland, France, South Africa and innumerable other places in the course of human history.

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Advocate, FYI, the Israelis have killed more innocent Palestinians than the other way around. At least, get your facts straight before you try to make a claim.

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At least 4,160 Palestinians and 1,023 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

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The shooting and stoning of Jewish civilians began immediately. The bombers came a bit later. Thus, the roadblocks were needed.

The Pal workers loved working in Israel because they made far more than they would at home (if work could be found). Your exaggerations are really stupid.

The so-called innocent Pal civilians killed were collateral casualties. The innocent Jews were targeted. This is a very important difference.

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Collateral is still "murder."

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Collateral is still "murder."

NO! Murder is intentional killing. Collateral killing is unintentional killing.

Terrorists must be killed to stop them from murdering. Terrorists are also responsible for the collateral killing that occurs when terrorists are killed.

No terrorism=> no terrorists => no terrorists being killed => no collateral killing.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Advocate, FYI, the Israelis have killed more innocent Palestinians than the other way around. At least, get your facts straight before you try to make a claim.

What evidence do you have to show that those Palestinians killed were innocent?

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