ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Israel is nominally a Jewish state, but accords basically full rights to those of other religions. You know that.

Israel recognizes a Pal right to exist, and is willing to sit down with a government recognizing Israel's right to exist. It did this at Camp David, but Arafat walked out with no counter offers, or even informing his people of what was offered by Israel.

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Advocate wrote:

More BS from George. Israel is essentially a secular democracy, something nonexistent in the rest of the ME. It has always been a strong and valuable ally of the USA.

No country in the world would embrace a unity government that doesn't recognize that the former has a right to exist.

You call it B.S., but it is the simple truth. I defy you to point out any statement of fact in the above two posts of mine that is incorrect, or any conclusion that is contrary to reason.

Israel is indeed a more or less secular democracy (so was Germany during the first years of Hitler's rule), but one that makes special liberal (as opposed to restrictive) provisions for the religious beliefs of Orthodox & ultra Orthodox Jews, but only restrictive ones for other faiths. Israel is by its own definition a homeland for Jews, and it will not tolerate any provision that might threaten that or the permanent Jewish majority in the state.. Thus the right of Jews everywhere to become citizens is widely proclaimed, but the right of former Palestinian residents of the land, who fled during armed conflict to return and reclaim their property is flatly refused. Israel and Jewish organizations have gone to great lengths to reclaim the property and obtain damage settlements for Jews displaced during WWII, but it explicitly denies these rights to the Palestinians it displaced from their land. Israel has engaged in systematic ethnic cleansing of portions of the West Bank in defiance of numerous UN proscriptions.

In short Israel enjoys an efficient and modern governmental apparatus, just as did the former Facist states of Europe, but like them it applies unjust racial/tribal/religious policies to its citizens and the people it controls through military occupation.

Israel is often described as an ally of the United States, but the relationship is rather one-sided. The United States has become the often unwitting patron of Israel, protecting it from the outrage of its neighbors and very often that of most of the Western World. This is chiefly the result of well-organized political action by American Jews (whose number is only very slightly less than the Jewish population of Israel). This is understandable on an individual basis, and indeed their right. However it constitutes political support for a nation whose self-definition is inconsistent with our own governing principles, and it has seriously undermined the security of this country.

Finaslly you should consider whether Israel really has reciprocated by permitting the existence of a viable Palestinian state. The closest they came was PM Barak's cynical offer of about 40% of the West Bank, and that broken up into numerous distinct enclaves, each completely surrounded by Israeli territory (The only border with another country was the Gaza frontier with Egypt). No water rights and no control of the airspace above it. Do you think that constitutes acknowledging the right of a Palestinian government to exist?

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George, the problem with you is that you wing it. You repeated many times that Israel was the aggressor in 1967, despite being shown many, many, times that the opposite was true. You just stated that Israel is a sectarian state, but then say it is a secular state like Germany.

The Pals are not offered a return because they were traitors to Israel, and can live in Palestine. Israel belongs to Israel, which can run the country as it pleases. If it choses to be a homeland for all Jews, it has this right.

Every president of the USA, once in office, quickly learns that we get a terrific bang for the buck in helping Israel. I realize that you and your boys hate this truth.

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FreeDuck wrote:

How can a secular democracy define itself in terms of a single religion?

This "right to exist" nonsense is a red herring. Has Israel recognized the Palestinians' right to exist in self determination?

YES!

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All I would like to see is for those who are challenging georgeob's posts tell us what is wrong or not true; not generalities or ad hominems, but tell us why it's not true or wrong by each issue. Simple request.

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Advocate wrote:

George, the problem with you is that you wing it. You repeated many times that Israel was the aggressor in 1967, despite being shown many, many, times that the opposite was true. You just stated that Israel is a sectarian state, but then say it is a secular state like Germany.

The Six Day war bit is becoming tiresome. We have discussed the facts many times. Egypt (not Syria or Jordan) gave Israel a causus beli by closing the Straits of Teran, but, as history has since shown, did not anticipate a war. However israel initiated the hostilities by a well-organized and rehearsed attack on Egypt, followed within hours by attacks on Jordan and Syria. Sezing the Golan, Jerusalem and Siani were explicit and planned war aims in israel. You repeatedly retreat behind clearly deceptive descriptions of these facts to distort the truth of the matter.

You are playing similar word games to hide the fact that Israel, though a democracy, does not treat its people equally. Moreover it has taken the freedom and rights of the people in the occupied territories by force and subjected them to systematic ethnic cleansing in selected areas (a very large portion of the West Bank). These are properly regarded as crimes against humanity in the modern world.

Advocate wrote:

The Pals are not offered a return because they were traitors to Israel, and can live in Palestine. Israel belongs to Israel, which can run the country as it pleases. If it choses to be a homeland for all Jews, it has this right.

There was no Israel when most of the Palestinians who fled in 1948 - they were never governed by Israel and were therefore not traitors. If Israel does indeed have the right as you assert to proclaim and make itself a Jewish state - then by the same logic so did Nazi Germany have the right to make itself an Aryan state. The problem is that these ideas are an affront to the principles of equality on which this country is based, and we have no business gouing to such great lengths to protect precisely that element in the behavior of any nation.

Advocate wrote:

Every president of the USA, once in office, quickly learns that we get a terrific bang for the buck in helping Israel. I realize that you and your boys hate this truth.

And just what is that "bang"? What benefits have accrued to the United States as a result of our unthinking support of a state that is increasingly a pariah in the modern world? Are we more respected as a result? -- the opposite is true. Do we have more allies as a result? - again, the contrary is true. Are we better off economically? -- no we are deained by billions each year to subsidize Israel and appease her neighbors.

I bvelieve the truth is that every president has instead come to realize the political potency of the organized support Israel at any cost political lobby in this country.

I'm not the member of any group on this issue and I don't have any associations that would qualify as "your boys" as you used the phrase. Instead I am speaking from my own observations and opinions - views are becoming more widespread in this country.

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The bang that we get is a local nuke pointed at the heads of the Arabs. That's the only use we have for Israel.

Advocate, you have consistently used the worst argumentation and ignored every piece of evidence that is presented to you that counters your belief that Israel is a morally upstanding nation. It's tiresome.

Thank you for carrying on the fight, George.

Cycloptichorn

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cicerone imposter wrote:

All I would like to see is for those who are challenging georgeob's posts tell us what is wrong or not true; not generalities or ad hominems, but tell us why it's not true or wrong by each issue. Simple request.

George repeatedly accuses Israel of causing or aggrevating the problem with the non-Israeli Arab Palestinians by the several ways the Israelis have chosen and are choosing to defend themselves against these Arabs, who have declared their goal is to eliminate Israel. He appears to justify this by alleging that, since the current Israelis are relative new comers and more advanced, they are more responsible for correcting their problems with these Arabs than are the Arabs responsible for correcting their problems with the Israelis. I think that standard of responsibility absurd. Also, if that is George's standard, I think encouraging such a standard encourages these Arabs to be even less advanced.

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ican, Try, if you can, to fit into the shoe of a Palestinian in Israel. Your home and property are taken away, and you have no legal rights to get it back. Your jobs are taken away, because you are not allowed to travel freely. Your children go to school, but are not funded from the Israli government. Your family has lived in Israel for generations, but you have no rights. You are not free to travel to any place in your own home country.

How would 'YOU' react under these circumstances? Be honest.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican, Try, if you can, to fit into the shoe of a Palestinian in Israel. Your home and property are taken away, and you have no legal rights to get it back. Your jobs are taken away, because you are not allowed to travel freely. Your children go to school, but are not funded from the Israli government. Your family has lived in Israel for generations, but you have no rights. You are not free to travel to any place in your own home country.

How would 'YOU' react under these circumstances? Be honest.

This is an excellent question!

I don't think the conditions you characterized for the Arabs in Israel actually exist.

The Palestinian Arabs in Israel are not threatening to eliminate Israel, nor are they terrorizing Jews in Israel. They are apparently content enough to make the best of their situation, whatever that is. Many own property and businesses in Israel. Some are even elected members of Israel's parliament.

But how about I put myself into the shoes of the Palestinian Arabs not in Israel. I wouldn't know who to fear the most. Should I fear the Israelis more than the Arab terrorists in my midst? Or Should I fear the Arab terrorists in my midst more than I fear the Israelis? If I help the terrorists, the Israelis probably will eventually kill me and/or my family. If I help the Israelis, the terrorists will eventually kill me and/or my family. If I help neither, me and/or my family might be killed because both terrorists and Israelis will suspect I sympathize with the other.

It clearly is a rotten situation. For us (i.e., me and my family) to survive an escape from Palestine is possible but not probable. What to do? Confused

Frankly, I'd probably recognize the only real chance we have is to finger and/or kill the terrorists in our midst as rapidly as I could in the hope I could enlist the aid of others who felt the same as I. Then I would tell Israel: I recognize your right and hope you will recognize my right to exist in Palestine.

I would not allow myself to get into a raging quest for revenge that cripples me to do anything other than hate and seek to kill the Israelis for doing what the UN resolution recommended for them as well as us to do. In fact, I'd recognize that the only real chance we have for survival would be to eliminate/encarcerate those among us who are crippled by their raging quest for revenge.

I recognize that I would probably react the way I described, because I am born of a culture that encourages self-confidence, self-initiative, and self-reliance to solve my problems--at least it did when I was growing up. However, I'm afraid too many of the Palestinian Arabs are born of a culture that looks to others to solve their problems for them. So I doubt there are any but a very few--maybe those educated elsewhere--who think like I do.

How can we help them out of their crippling raging quest for revenge? The best I can come up with--and sadly it ain't much--is figure out a way to educate their young to respect and strive for self-confidence, self-initiative, and self-reliance.

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ican, Thanks for your honesty; I believe this is the first time I've heard you say something that I consider reasonable - considering you don't know how Palestinians live in Israel.

I was in Israel, and we were able to meet with a young Palestinian woman in the old city. She told us about how her family has lived in Israel for as long as she has her family history, but she is not free to move around in Israel. Her family owns two homes in the Arab Quarter of the old city - she told us that is very unusual for any family to own two homes. Yes, some Arabs/Palestinians still own homes in Israel. But many Palestinians lost their homes simply because the Jews took position of their home by force, and Palestinians do not have any legal rights to go to court and demand their home back. Read "The Other Side Of Israel" by Susan Nathan. She's a Jew who lives in a Palestinian village in Israel. Even she is "discriminated" against, because Jews do not like to see other Jews living with the Palestinians. Many of the West Bank cities where Palestinians live have cement fences and "border" control points/towers. They are not free to move in and out of those villages. When they are given permission to travel, they are required to take a detour that adds hundreds of miles to their destination even when their destination is only a few miles away. There are check points all over the main roads of Israel. I can show you pictures of them if you don't believe it.

The Palestinians live in a country where they have no legal rights or the freedom to travel in their own country.

If I lived under those conditions, I may probably become a member of Hamas, because I see no future for myself or for my family.

The Jews cannot continue to steal Palestinian land and hope they will find peace - no matter what offerings the Jews make for peace. I call that speaking with a forked tongue.

If you fail to see why, you're just not being honest.

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There's always two sides to every story, and let me tell you about the Jews of Israel. Our Program Director in Israel is a Jew who makes his home in Jerusalem with his wife and young daughter. He's one of the best Program Directors I have ever had in all my travels, and he shared some of his feelings with us.

He doesn't feel safe in his own country/home, because of so many bombings in public places. He doesn't trust the Palestinians. He was trying to be liberal in his views, and refused to talk too negatively about the Palestinians and their political problems in Israel. We understood; who would feel comfortable raising a young family when one can't feel safe.

Unfortunately, I recently heard that Overseas Adventure Travel discontinued their Israel tours.

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Advocate wrote:

Once again, here is strong support for the premise that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria were he aggresors in 1967

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570433/Six-Day_War.html

So, where in this article does it say that "the Pals and neighboring countries attacked Israel in '67"?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

...
The Palestinians live in a country where they have no legal rights or the freedom to travel in their own country.

If I lived under those conditions, I may probably become a member of Hamas, because I see no future for myself or for my family.

The Jews cannot continue to steal Palestinian land and hope they will find peace - no matter what offerings the Jews make for peace. I call that speaking with a forked tongue.

If you fail to see why, you're just not being honest.

I lack confidence that your characterization of the typical conditions underwhich the more than a million Arabs live in Israel are that much different than the typical conditions under which Jews live in Israel. While I have no more reason to believe the anecdotal evidence I've received from other visitors to Israel than yours, I do have access to some practical facts.

FACT 1
The million plus Arabs living in Israel do not have terrorists living in their midst that are terrorizing Israelis living in Israel.

FACT 2
Many of Israel's most populated areas are less than a mile from Israel's borders.

FACT 3
Travel across Israel's borders is strictly controlled for both Jews and Arabs.

FACT 4
Israeli Jews are scared of what their Arab neighbors living in non-Israel Palestine will do to them and are determined to defend themselves as best they can.

The first question for me then, is what must the Israelis do and what must the Arabs do to resolve their conflict?

The answer for me is: both must agree to stop trying to remove the other from Palestine. Until that is agreed to by both, their conflict will not be resolved.

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ican: The answer for me is: both must agree to stop trying to remove the other from Palestine. Until that is agreed to by both, their conflict will not be resolved.

The very first thing that must happen is to return all properties illegally taken from the Palestinians. The second is to give the Palestinians legal rights. They can then begin to talk about agreements to live in peace.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican: The answer for me is: both must agree to stop trying to remove the other from Palestine. Until that is agreed to by both, their conflict will not be resolved.

The very first thing that must happen is to return all properties illegally taken from the Palestinians. The second is to give the Palestinians legal rights. They can then begin to talk about agreements to live in peace.

What you propose sounds to me like a civil court trial to determine what what rights should be restored and what properties were actually taken illegally.

I think such a trial is very unlikely to occur before both agree to stop trying to remove the other from Palestine. Until that is agreed to by both, their conflict will not be resolved and there will not be any such court trial whose decisions both will accept.

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ican, If somebody took your home illegally, wouldn't you want to have the legal right to get it back? - before you start talking about living in peace?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ican, If somebody took your home illegally, wouldn't you want to have the legal right to get it back? - before you start talking about living in peace?

Of course, I would want that first. But what I would want and what I am likely to get first would not necessarily be the same thing. I would have to realize that I won't get my property back until I agree not to murder the other guy and he agrees not to murder me after I get it back.

So I would first make that agreement and then work on getting my property back. Oh, and I would include as an additional condition of that agreement that the World Court decides the property and legal rights issues after the agreement is made.

I also realize Arabs think differently than I. They think they won't get their property back if they first promise not to murder the other guy after they get it back. I think they're wrong and are likely to not get their property back without that agreement before all of them, living now, have died of violence, desease or old age.

Reality, however cruel, is a task master that cannot be by-passed.

Suppose the Arabs take a chance and make that agreement with the Israelis, and suppose the Israelies renege on their agreement. The Arabs won't be any worse off than they are now, but the Israelis will be far worse off because they would suffer worldwide recriminations and other more serious penalties. I think Israel would understand this without being told. Israel won't renege. How we convince the Arabs of that, I don't know.

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ican711nm wrote:

FACT 1
The million plus Arabs living in Israel do not have terrorists living in their midst that are terrorizing Israelis living in Israel.

FACT 2
Many of Israel's most populated areas are less than a mile from Israel's borders.

FACT 3
Travel across Israel's borders is strictly controlled for both Jews and Arabs.

FACT 4
Israeli Jews are scared of what their Arab neighbors living in non-Israel Palestine will do to them and are determined to defend themselves as best they can.

The first question for me then, is what must the Israelis do and what must the Arabs do to resolve their conflict?

Ican has assembled some relevant facts but has somehow avoided the obvious conclusion to which thery lead.

Palestinians who are citizens of Israel and who are afforded (almost) the same rights as Israeli Jews, and who therefore have a stake in their community, live in peace with their neighbors in Israel. From this we can conclude that the unrest and distemper that afflicts the Palestinians in Gaza and the West bank is not a characteristic of the people, their culture or religion,

Thus the revolutionary mentality that afflicts the others is a result of the different conditions under which they have lived for the past forty years - Israeli military occupation, oppression, and denial of political and economic rights. The remedy for this must necessarily involve the end of the conditions that have spawned the revolt.

Priviledged people everywhere have lived in fear of those whom they oppress. This was as true in the ancien regime of France. the Apartheidt rule of the former nationalist South Africa, and the authoritarian states of the unlamented Soviet Empire as it is in greater Israel (or Palestine - whatever you wish to call it) today. The remedy for Israeli fears is not more oppression of the Palestiunians or the unrealistic hope that they can be induced to accept their servitude to a master Israeli state. The remedy must involve equal justice for all in the region. Until Israel is willing to accept this obvious fact, there will be no peace.

In shielding Israel from facing this fact the United States does Israel no good. We merely subsidize their delusions and protect them from the consequences of their misdeeds. Worse, we harm ourselves in the process.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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