ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Brand X wrote:

That report mentions 'peacekeepers' several times which just can't be according to Walter.

If you have the time, please do look up the various UN engagements.

UNTSO currently provides military observers to three different UN missions in the area; Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), supporting UNIFIL in southern Lebanon, Observer Group Golan (OGG) supporting UNDOF in the occupied Golan Heights and OGE Observer Group Egypt (OGE) on the Sinai Peninsula.

From the UN Press Release:

Quote:

UNITED NATIONS INTERIM FORCE IN LEBANON
(UNIFIL)
Naqoura,
26 July 2006
PRESS RELEASE
Yesterday evening at 19:30, at least one aerial bomb impacted directly on
the building inside the patrol base of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL) in
the area of Khiyam in the eastern sector. The three-story building and the
position were entirely destroyed. At the time, there were 4 unarmed military
observers in the position from different nationalities. A UNIFIL rescue team
was immediately dispatched to the location, and is still trying to clear the
rubble. They retrieved the bodies of three observers, and are searching for
the fourth, who is also feared dead. The Secretary General of the United
Nations gave a statement last night in Rome concerning this incident.
Prior to this incident, very intensive aerial bombardment and shelling from
the Israeli side was reported in the area of Khiyam, and there were 14 prior
incidents of firing close to this position by aerial bombs and artillery shells. At
18:30, four artillery shells fired from the Israeli side directly impacted inside
the position, causing extensive damage on the building and the shelter.
UNIFIL Force Commander was in repeated contact with Israeli Army officers
throughout the afternoon, pressing the need to protect that particular UN
position from firing.
Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the
western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah
side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or
material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the
Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired
from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and
At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.
This morning, the UNIFIL Engineering Contingent finally managed to retrieve
the bodies of a UNIFIL international civilian staff member and his wife. They
were buried under the rubble of the building which was completely destroyed
during the air bombardment of the area of Hosh in Tyre on 17 July.
(Since the outbreak of hostilities, four military observers from OGL,
one UNIFIL international staff member and his wife were killed, and
four Ghanaian soldiers, one Indian soldier, and one OGL military
observer were wounded as a result of firing.)

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What does anyone expect when Hezbollah camps right next to the U.N., flys their flags together, shares facilities, etc., etc.? By the way, I thought the U.N. was a peace keeper force. Why weren't they keeping the peace, instead of watching Hezbollah haul in weapons by the truckload? I thought they were supposed to be unbiased?

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Same procedure as ten years ago - only that then some dozens more were killed.

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British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett has protested to the US about its use of a Scottish airport to transport bombs to Israel.
Source

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So nobody has a clue what those U.N. 'peace keepers' or 'observors' or whatever were supposed to be doing or what they were supposed to observe all these years they've been stationed in Lebanon. How do you know you're getting your money's worth?

One member suggests the U.S. government and Israel had the capability of knowing the quantity and whereabouts of rockets being moved into Lebanon with the implication that the U.S.A. and Israel should have done something about it rather than the U.N observors/peacekeepers.

One member points out that things aren't good in Iraq with the implication that we shouldn't expect anything better anywhere else.

One member brings up the U.S.S. Liberty incident of almost 40 years ago as PROOF that Israelis are irresponsible and viscious warmongers who attack without provocation. (That one has triggered conspiracy theories on a par with the one suggesting the US government targeted the World Trade Center and Pentagon on 9/11.)

And Israel is blamed because they finally got fed up with 'proportional' repeated terrorist attacks and harrassment and are being condemned for 'disproportionate response'.

I'll tell you what. If I had to depend on either Israel or the U.N. to protect my life and property, I'm pretty sure I'm going to want Israel to be assigned that duty.

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okie wrote:

What does anyone expect when Hezbollah camps right next to the U.N., flys their flags together, shares facilities, etc., etc.? By the way, I thought the U.N. was a peace keeper force. Why weren't they keeping the peace, instead of watching Hezbollah haul in weapons by the truckload? I thought they were supposed to be unbiased?

Gadzooks. Here's that one child left behind. Far, far behind.

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foxfyre wrote:

Quote:

One member points out that things aren't good in Iraq with the implication that we shouldn't expect anything better anywhere else.

What are you doing here, fox? Is your participation only and utterly towards the hoped for end of some partisan/ideological defensive goal?

You are either not going to the effort of thinking through simple arguments or you are dishonest.

Your depiction of my analogy is completely false.

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hamburger wrote:

imo lebanon i a defenseless country for trying out the latest war machinery - and i would think it applies to all participants in this murdererous exercise . of great benefit to all the armament manufacturers to have their weapons tested and get paid for this.
a marvellous world we are living in - in the meantime thousands die every day of disease and malnutrition .
god and jesus and allah must be proud of what they have ceated .
hbg

Did you assume that the history of the 21st century would be materially different from those that preceeded it? Certainly the major powers of Europe perfected this game at the dawn of the modern era over 500 years ago.

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Israel was kicked out of Lebanon 6 years ago. Hez did it by wearing down Israel, which is their speciality. Hamas is operating in the same manner, feeling that it will wear down Israel.

Thus, Israel feels it has to do something different this time, which is the somewhat massive bombing and destruction of infrastructure in Lebanon and Gaza. Israel is drawing the line at its borders, and will do all that is necessary to turn away attacks.

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blatham wrote:

foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
One member points out that things aren't good in Iraq with the implication that we shouldn't expect anything better anywhere else.

What are you doing here, fox? Is your participation only and utterly towards the hoped for end of some partisan/ideological defensive goal?

You are either not going to the effort of thinking through simple arguments or you are dishonest.

Your depiction of my analogy is completely false.

I didn't bring up Iraq. You were the one who brought it up as a comparison. I only pointed out that it had nothing to do with this particular issue even as an analogy, at least in my opinion. I'm not the one bringing up partisanship, though it does seem to be the Left leaners who are condemning Israel and not holding Hezbollah or the U.N. accountable for anything. Is your conviction partisan? Or do you have convictions apart from ideology? Why are you seem so certain that nobody else's opinion is from conviction apart from ideology?

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Foxfyre wrote:

blatham wrote:
foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
One member points out that things aren't good in Iraq with the implication that we shouldn't expect anything better anywhere else.

What are you doing here, fox? Is your participation only and utterly towards the hoped for end of some partisan/ideological defensive goal?

You are either not going to the effort of thinking through simple arguments or you are dishonest.

Your depiction of my analogy is completely false.

I didn't bring up Iraq. You were the one who brought it up as a comparison. I only pointed out that it had nothing to do with this particular issue even as an analogy, at least in my opinion. I'm not the one bringing up partisanship, though it does seem to be the Left leaners who are condemning Israel and not holding Hezbollah or the U.N. accountable for anything. Is your conviction partisan? Or do you have convictions apart from ideology? Why are you seem so certain that nobody else's opinion is from conviction apart from ideology?

What was the point my comparison, foxfyre? What was I comparing? It is simple, it is explicit, and it is easy to understand IF you bother to read with even the slightest care or attention.

I have expressed no opinion here on Israel or this present conflict. I have expressed no opinion here even regarding the effectiveness of the UN generally or specifically.

All I have done...the one thing I've done over the last five pages is to suggest to you (and another) that your claims regarding the truth of what is going on are both logically and evidentially unwarranted. That you make them with the certainty you do, and with the lack of honesty and humility regarding what you actually know and don't know, is where your ideology or partisanship comes into play.

You DO NOT KNOW or even have grounds to consider it probable that the UN observers were underachieving in their responsibilities. You are even unclear on what those responsibilities might be.

You have NO REASONABLE BASIS to suggest/imply that if some peacekeeping function is part of their responsibility that they have either the manpower or resources to control Hezbollah to the extent they could prevent this outbreak of violence. And THAT, for the third time now, was the purpose of my bringing up Iraq. IF AN ARMY THE SIZE OF THE ONE PRESENTLY IN IRAQ WITH ALL THE INTELLIGENCE SUPPORT AVAILABLE CANNOT PREVENT VIOLENCE AND WAR THEN HOW THE HELL CAN YOU INDICT A UN OFFICE FOR NOT KEEPING THE PEACE IN LEBANON?

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Canadian Killed Complained U.N. Position Was Shielding Hezbollah

Transcript from CBC radio interview
ShinesForAll.com
(too short to excerpt)

"...the tragic loss of a soldier yesterday who I happen to know and I think probably is from my Regiment. We've received e-mails from him a few days ago and he described the fact that he was taking fire within - in one case -- three meters of his position "for tactical necessity - not being targeted". Now that's veiled speech in the military and what he was telling us was Hizbullah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were (sic) targeting them and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can't be punished for it."

Retired Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie interviewed on CBC Toronto radio 26 July 2006
For recording:
http://cbc.ca/metromorning/media/20060726LMCJUL26.ram

Source

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It seems pretty damned doubtful to me that Israel would risk public outrage at purposefully targeting a UN post for some strategic goal. And what would that goal be?

It certainly may well be that they gave the UN presence no consideration greater than they would give to Lebanese citizens. You are nearby, tough luck.

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georgeob wrote :
"Did you assume that the history of the 21st century would be materially different from those that preceeded it? Certainly the major powers of Europe perfected this game at the dawn of the modern era over 500 years ago."

of course , you are right georgeob . the same game is being played over and over again ; the players and pawns may be different , but in the end it's all just a variation of the old game .
just like some dogs fighting over a bone - except that the dogs are usually not as brutal .
hbg

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blatham wrote:

It seems pretty damned doubtful to me that Israel would risk public outrage at purposefully targeting a UN post for some strategic goal. And what would that goal be?

It certainly may well be that they gave the UN presence no consideration greater than they would give to Lebanese citizens. You are nearby, tough luck.

It seems pretty damned doubtful to me that Israel would risk public outrage at purposefully targeting a UN post with no strategic goal.

To clarify, I don't think it was a target but apparently as the Canadian soldier conveyed it was close enough that a stray shot would be disaster.

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i've made it to page 60 (out of 800+ Shocked

) in dennis ross' book :
'the missing peace' - i call it 'the missing piece' .
i'm certainly not qualified to be able to tell what's really going on in the ME - is anyone ?
the way i understand ross' book can be summed up thus :
the middle east is like a chess game , but instead of two players there are about half a dozen players on each side ... and they are not always the same ones . when it finally looks like the parties have come to an agreement how to play the game , someone comes along and kicks the table and the pieces spill all over the place . at that point all parties point fingers at each other and they : "he did it !" .

to cite an example from the book :
the egyptians were much interested in having israel and the palestinians come to terms and had issued an invitation for the israelis and palestinians to meet , and they had offered to be the mediators .
the israeli foreign minister , moshe arens , was the point man at that time .
the egyptians had also put out some feelers to the israeli labour party .
arens didn't like that and demanded that it be stopped .
the invitation went to the israeli cabinet who voted on the invitation and deadlocked 6-6 ... back to square one .

and another one :
arafat had established his government in exile and wanted to negotiate .
the u.s. wanted to bring representatives of the palestinians actually living in palestine into the negotiations also . big mistake ! arafat didn't like that ... back to square one !

i wonder who will be at the table next time ... and who will kick the table over once there is a chance of success.

plenty of blame go around for all to share - while the people in the camps keep suffering .
hbg

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hamburger

Good data. Please keep us posted as you come across revelatory and relevant information. My god, there are just too many books to read.

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blatham wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
blatham wrote:
foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
One member points out that things aren't good in Iraq with the implication that we shouldn't expect anything better anywhere else.

What are you doing here, fox? Is your participation only and utterly towards the hoped for end of some partisan/ideological defensive goal?

You are either not going to the effort of thinking through simple arguments or you are dishonest.

Your depiction of my analogy is completely false.

I didn't bring up Iraq. You were the one who brought it up as a comparison. I only pointed out that it had nothing to do with this particular issue even as an analogy, at least in my opinion. I'm not the one bringing up partisanship, though it does seem to be the Left leaners who are condemning Israel and not holding Hezbollah or the U.N. accountable for anything. Is your conviction partisan? Or do you have convictions apart from ideology? Why are you seem so certain that nobody else's opinion is from conviction apart from ideology?

What was the point my comparison, foxfyre? What was I comparing? It is simple, it is explicit, and it is easy to understand IF you bother to read with even the slightest care or attention.

I have expressed no opinion here on Israel or this present conflict. I have expressed no opinion here even regarding the effectiveness of the UN generally or specifically.

All I have done...the one thing I've done over the last five pages is to suggest to you (and another) that your claims regarding the truth of what is going on are both logically and evidentially unwarranted. That you make them with the certainty you do, and with the lack of honesty and humility regarding what you actually know and don't know, is where your ideology or partisanship comes into play.

You DO NOT KNOW or even have grounds to consider it probable that the UN observers were underachieving in their responsibilities. You are even unclear on what those responsibilities might be.

You have NO REASONABLE BASIS to suggest/imply that if some peacekeeping function is part of their responsibility that they have either the manpower or resources to control Hezbollah to the extent they could prevent this outbreak of violence. And THAT, for the third time now, was the purpose of my bringing up Iraq. IF AN ARMY THE SIZE OF THE ONE PRESENTLY IN IRAQ WITH ALL THE INTELLIGENCE SUPPORT AVAILABLE CANNOT PREVENT VIOLENCE AND WAR THEN HOW THE HELL CAN YOU INDICT A UN OFFICE FOR NOT KEEPING THE PEACE IN LEBANON?

The only one being dishonest in characterization here are you my friend. I have not suggested the UN obsservers were underachieving. I asked what their mission was. Nobody knows other some some vague comments that provided no specificity of any kind. I have not suggested that they have either the manpower or resources to control Hezbollah.

I have suggested that we don't know what the hell they were supposed to be doing in Lebanon, whether that accomplished any good whatsoever, and I think it is reasonable to ask what results we are getting from our investment. If peace keepers are not there to keep the peace why have them? If observors are not able to observe and report violations of mandates, then why are we kidding ourselves? If UN resolutions/mandates are not to be enforced or even taken seriously by anybody, what good are they?

Can you show me any evidence whatsoever that we've gotten our money's worth from the UN in Lebanon or in any other peace keeping efforts lately? If you can, that would be great. Let's see it. If you can't how can you excoriate me for asking the question(s)? Why shouldn't the questions be asked? And how is it a partisan issue at all? Are only conservatives interested in performance, excellence, effectiveness?

If I mischaracterized your analogy of Iraq I apologize. It was probably a kneejerk response considering our past history. Smile

I do thnk however, if the UN had enforced its own resolution there, if there had been an Iraq conflict at all, it would be over with and done by now. So in that sense, the analogy does fit.

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blatham wrote:

okie wrote:
What does anyone expect when Hezbollah camps right next to the U.N., flys their flags together, shares facilities, etc., etc.? By the way, I thought the U.N. was a peace keeper force. Why weren't they keeping the peace, instead of watching Hezbollah haul in weapons by the truckload? I thought they were supposed to be unbiased?

Gadzooks. Here's that one child left behind. Far, far behind.

blatham, not only is the U.N. rather useless, it is in the way. If they can't keep the peace, then get out of the way or they are going to get hurt. Its a war zone.....Hello. Is that too difficult to understand, blatham?

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2UxZjI3MTRhNGM5YTc1MDkyM2NkZmVhZjdiYzUzODU=

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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