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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 10:31 pm
ican quote:
'Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;'

I don't twist facts, I just read them.

If you can say Bushie isn't blaming Iraq, you could probably get a job as a spin doctor at the White House.

America was hot for revenge after 9/11 and Iraq was the convenient target to send all that patriotic idiocy. Americans willfully ignored facts in favor of misguided retribution. Did they tell the troops that they are fighting for the American dollar? Well, in "Bushism" - they is.

You are into denial about the role America has played in destroying Iraq.
You people went into a country for no reason and BushCo knew it.

The only reason America is involved is MONEY, primarily their dollar versus the Euro....and you're losing the battle on all fronts.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 10:18 am
IDF calls off strike after hundreds shield Gaza militant's house
By Nir Hasson, Aluf Ben and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service and Reuters
The Israel Defense Forces canceled a planned air raid on the home of a militant in the northern Gaza Strip on Sunday after several hundred Palestinians barricaded themselves inside the building, an IDF spokesman and witnesses said.

Palestinian sources called the protest the first of its kind to have in effect prevented an air strike by the IAF. An IDF spokesman said the strike had been called off so to avoid inflicting civilian casualties.

Hundreds of Palestinians formed a human shield around the home of the militant in Beit Lahia late Saturday to prevent an Israel Air Force air strike on the building, residents said.

An IDF spokesman confirmed the raid had been called off because of the protest.

"The attack plan was canceled because of the people there," the spokesman said. "We differentiate between innocent people and terrorists."

The spokesman vowed Israel would continue its strikes against militants, and accused gunmen of using the civilians in the camp as human shields.

Earlier Saturday, two Palestinians, ages 16 and 20, were killed and five others wounded Saturday by Israel Defense Forces fire in Beit Lahiya. Three IDF soldiers were lightly injured by an anti-tank missile while operating against Qassam rocket infrastructure in Beit Lahia.

People flocked to the home of Mohammed al-Baroud after he received a warning from the army late Saturday giving him 30 minutes to leave the house. Barhoud is a commander in the Popular Resistance Committees in the town who is in charge of firing homemade rockets at Israel. Crowds of people stood on the rooftop and in the yard of the home.

Israel routinely orders occupants out of homes ahead of air strikes on suspected weapons-storage facilities, saying it wants to avoid casualties. The incident in Beit Lahia was the first time Palestinians have tried to prevent such an airstrike.

The crowd chanted anti-Israel and anti-American slogans, and people said they were prepared to give their lives to protect the home. "Yes to martyrdom. No to surrender," the crowd chanted.

"We came here to protect this fighter, to protect his house and to prove that we are capable of defeating this Zionist policy," said Nizar Rayan, a local Hamas leader who joined the protest,
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/788899.html
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 02:44 pm
Interesting new approach on part of the Palestinians to react to the Israeli policy of targeted air strikes:

Quote:
Human shield deters Israel strike

The Israelis have called off a planned air attack on a house in Jabaliya refugee camp in Gaza after hundreds of Palestinians formed a human shield.

Mohammedweil Baroud said he was warned by Israeli forces to leave his home. He instead ran to a mosque and summoned neighbours to help defend the house.

Mr Baroud is a commander in the Popular Resistance Committees militant group.

The Israeli army often orders people out of homes ahead of attacks, saying it aims to avoid casualties.

A Hamas commander at the scene said people had gathered to show that the demolition strategy of the Israelis could be defeated.

An Israeli military spokesman confirmed to Reuters news agency that the raid had been called off because of the Palestinian action.

...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 02:53 pm
Israel must learn that super military power is not the answer to win "wars" or for peace.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 03:06 pm
i watched tim russert's interview of two newly-elected u.s. senators(dem) today .
one of them - a former undersecretary of the navy(name ?) - stated that priority no. 1 for the united states must be to settle the disagreeement/war between israel and its neighbours .
from what i understood him to say , there could be no lasting peace in the middle-east unless a peace agreement/settlemaent has been achieved .
his hopes seem to be high ; for the sake of all mankind , i hope he will not be disappointed .
hbg
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 03:16 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Israel must learn that super military power is not the answer to win "wars" or for peace.



I doubt that there's a military way of solving Israel's problems. Israel makes quite something of the fact that they sometimes call ahead before leveling houses. On the other hand, I don't really see what these strikes are supposed to achieve.

In this case, it was the house of Mohammed al Baroud, a commander in the Popular Resistance Committees militant group. So, let me try to understand how this is supposed to work:

- commander of militant group is being targeted
- IDF call ahead in order to avoid civilian casualties
- everybody would flee the house
- house would be leveled

What, exactly, does this achieve? The suspect would get away, so he can't be the real target, right? The only reasonable explanation seems to be that these strikes are meant to be some kind of punishment.

The BBC article mentions that Israel often targets the homes of Gaza militants in response to attacks on Israeli neighbourhoods from Gaza. So the only possible explanation seems to be punishment/revenge.

I can't see any strategical advantage from these actions for Israel. And I can't see how Israel is protecting its citizens that way.

The only thing these strikes seem to achieve is that they are driving the inhabitants of the refugee camps into the hands of the militants.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 03:28 pm
Some background info on the Jabalia refugee camp:

Quote:
JABALIA CAMP

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/gaza/images/jabalia.jpg

Jabalia camp is located north of Gaza City beside a village of the same name. The camp was established after the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict for 35,000 refugees who had fled from villages in southern Palestine. The refugees were at first provided with tents, which UNRWA later replaced with cement block shelters with asbestos roofs.

The camp covers an area of 1.4 sq. km. The shelters, which usually consist of two or three small rooms, a small kitchen and bathroom on an area of maximum 40 sq. m, are packed closely together. Narrow alleys and pathways, some less than one meter wide, run between the shelters. The camp lacks basic infrastructure. Solid waste is collected by UNRWA's sanitation labourers. Water is supplied by the local municipality or comes from UNRWA and private water wells.

The first Palestinian Intifadah started in Jabalia Camp in December 1987.

Prior to the closure of the Gaza Strip in September 2000, most of the refugees worked as labourers in Israel or locally in agriculture in nearby farms in Beit Lahia. Some own small shops in the camp and a few work in small businesses.


More here: UNRWA
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 05:44 pm
old europe wrote: I can't see any strategical advantage from these actions for Israel. And I can't see how Israel is protecting its citizens that way.

The only thing these strikes seem to achieve is that they are driving the inhabitants of the refugee camps into the hands of the militants.

I agree. There's an interesting article in this monring's local newspaper about the widening gulf between the citizens and their government.

It seems Israel's deputy prime minister, Lieberman, siad "Israel should assassinate Hamas' leadership, ignore the moderate Palestninian president and walk away from international peace talks" which is expected to freeze peace efforts.

They will never learn that military might will never bring peace to Israel.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:14 pm
pachelbel wrote:
ican quote:
'Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;'

I don't twist facts, I just read them.

If you can say Bushie isn't blaming Iraq, you could probably get a job as a spin doctor at the White House.
...

Either you twist the facts you read, or you simply do not understand the facts you read.

Bush did not blame Iraq for 9/11. Bush blamed al-Qaeda for 9/11. Bush blamed Iraq for harboring al-Qaeda after USA invaded Afghanistan and after 9/11.

Read what Congress said. Bush did not make the statement you quoted. Congress made that statement.

Congress wrote:

www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002 (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;
...


Congress did not blame Iraq for 9/11. Congress blamed al-Qaeda for 9/11. Congress blamed Iraq for allowing al-Qaeda sanctuary in Iraq.

Blame Bush for this statement:
...
Quote:

Tuesday night, September 11, 2001, the President broadcast to the nation:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm Chapter 10

We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 07:18 pm
ican and pachelbel, why don't you both stop spamming this thread and take it to the f*cking Iraq thread, eh?
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 10:36 pm
ican711nm wrote:
pachelbel wrote:
ican quote:
'Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;'

I don't twist facts, I just read them.

If you can say Bushie isn't blaming Iraq, you could probably get a job as a spin doctor at the White House.
...

Either you twist the facts you read, or you simply do not understand the facts you read.

Bush did not blame Iraq for 9/11. Bush blamed al-Qaeda for 9/11. Bush blamed Iraq for harboring al-Qaeda after USA invaded Afghanistan and after 9/11.

Read what Congress said. Bush did not make the statement you quoted. Congress made that statement.

Congress wrote:

www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002 (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;
...


Congress did not blame Iraq for 9/11. Congress blamed al-Qaeda for 9/11. Congress blamed Iraq for allowing al-Qaeda sanctuary in Iraq.

Blame Bush for this statement:
...
Quote:

Tuesday night, September 11, 2001, the President broadcast to the nation:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm Chapter 10

We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.


I can read, ican. You don't need to use large type. Usually when people begin yelling they have lost the argument.

Saddam hated al-Qaeda - why would he harbor them?

What an idiotic statement, ican. As a poster has already noted - Americans were allowed to think that Iraq was involved. And now you know - the rest of the story.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 07:56 am
Sounds like Iraq all over again. The administration makes its own intelligence so it will support its unsupported charge of wrongdoing by a nation. In Iraq it was WMD's, a false charge supported by the administrations false intelligence. Now it's Iran and nukes.

Quote:
CIA analysis finds no Iranian nuclear weapons drive: report
(AFP)

19 November 2006

WASHINGTON - A classified draft CIA assessment has found no firm evidence of a secret drive by Iran to develop nuclear weapons, as alleged by the White House, a top US investigative reporter said on Saturday.

Seymour Hersh, writing in an article for the November 27 issue of the magazine The New Yorker released in advance, reported on whether the administration of Republican President George W. Bush was more, or less, inclined to attack Iran after Democrats won control of Congress last week.

A month before the November 7 legislative elections, Hersh wrote, Vice President Dick Cheney attended a national-security discussion that touched on the impact of Democratic victory in both chambers on Iran policy.

"If the Democrats won on November 7th, the vice president said, that victory would not stop the administration from pursuing a military option with Iran," Hersh wrote, citing a source familiar with the discussion.

Cheney said the White House would circumvent any legislative restrictions "and thus stop Congress from getting in its way," he said.

The Democratic victory unleashed a surge of calls for the Bush administration to begin direct talks with Iran.

But the administration's planning of a military option was made "far more complicated" in recent months by a highly classified draft assessment by the Central Intelligence Agency "challenging the White House's assumptions about how close Iran might be to building a nuclear bomb," he wrote.

"The CIA found no conclusive evidence, as yet, of a secret Iranian nuclear-weapons program running parallel to the civilian operations that Iran has declared to the International Atomic Energy Agency," Hersh wrote, adding the CIA had declined to comment on that story.

A current senior intelligence official confirmed the existence of the CIA analysis and said the White House had been hostile to it, he wrote.

Cheney and his aides had discounted the assessment, the official said.

"They're not looking for a smoking gun," the official was quoted as saying, referring to specific intelligence about Iranian nuclear planning.

"They're looking for the degree of comfort level they think they need to accomplish the mission."

The United States and other major powers believe Iran's uranium enrichment program is ultimately aimed at producing fissile material for nuclear weapons.

Iran insists it will use the enriched uranium only to fuel nuclear power stations, something it is permitted to do as a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

The major powers have been debating a draft United Nations resolution drawn up by Britain, France and Germany that would impose limited sanctions on Iran's nuclear and ballistic missile sectors for Tehran's failure to comply with an earlier UN resolution on halting enrichment.

On Wednesday, Israel's outgoing US ambassador Danny Ayalon said in an interview that Bush would not hesitate to use force against Iran to halt its nuclear program if other options failed.

"US President George W. Bush will not hesitate to use force against Iran in order to halt its nuclear program," Ayalon told the Maariv daily.

Israel, widely considered the Middle East's sole if undeclared nuclear power, views Iran as its arch-foe, pointing to repeated calls by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to wipe the Jewish state off the map.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2006/November/middleeast_November354.xml&section=middleeast

So is there any evidence that Iran is producing the high quality material needed to make a nuke? No, but with the Bush administration an accusation is all that's needed, even if unsupported by evidence, to invade or attack a country.

I believe that's called the Cheney 1% rule.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 08:08 am
Sometimes I can't believe we have two more years of this kind of crap.

Hersh: Bush, Cheney Stovepiping Intelligence On Iran, Hiding Information From CIA

Quote:


I guess we have a foreign intelligence branch in America which only reports directly to the WH and that information is going to be used to justify any actions we may take against Iran despite it being unverified by our own intelligent agencies. Is this a normal acceptable procedure?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 08:11 am
xingu, you beat me to it. Amazing piece of work this administration is, isn't it. What makes it even more amazing is the apologists defenses of this administration.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 08:17 am
revel wrote:
xingu, you beat me to it.


But only by 12 minutes. It was close Laughing
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 08:24 am
xingu wrote:
revel wrote:
xingu, you beat me to it.


But only by 12 minutes. It was close Laughing


Smile It takes me a while to get my thoughts in order with a lot of revising in the post section. (sometimes, other times I just post on the fly usually a mistake in more ways than one)
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 09:13 am
revel wrote:
xingu wrote:
revel wrote:
xingu, you beat me to it.


But only by 12 minutes. It was close Laughing


Smile It takes me a while to get my thoughts in order with a lot of revising in the post section. (sometimes, other times I just post on the fly usually a mistake in more ways than one)


Ya, I'm getting old to Laughing
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 01:50 pm
Interesting account of a day of demonstration in Israel. "Peace Now Sderot-Gaza convoy meets Anarchists on a tank" http://toibillboard.info/Sderot_Gaza.htm
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 05:53 pm
BBC wrote:
The US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has not found conclusive evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, a US magazine has reported.

Veteran investigative reporter Seymour Hersh, writing in The New Yorker, cites a secret CIA report based on intelligence such as satellite images
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 08:25 pm
pachelbel wrote:

...
Saddam hated al-Qaeda - why would he harbor them?

Whether or not Saddam truly hated al-Qaeda before 9/11, is unclear. He communicated with them before 9/11 according to al-Qaeda. Certainly Saddam did not hate al-Qaeda after 9/11. Otherwise he would have removed them from northeast Iraq just like he did those Kurds in 1996 that he hated.

What an idiotic statement, ican. As a poster has already noted - Americans were allowed to think that Iraq was involved. And now you know - the rest of the story.

Americans were allowed to think that Iraq was involved Question Rolling Eyes Surely you realize that is truly an idiotic statement. Allowed to think Question Laughing

Americans like you allowed yourselves to think Bush alleged Iraq was involved in 9/11, despite the President's repeated statements that Iraq was not involved in 9/11. See the 9/11 Commission Report, Chapter 10, and in particular read Chapter 10.3 "Phase Two" and the Question of Iraq.

Iraq began harboring al-Qaeda after 9/11, beginning in December 2001. Obviously, that harboring began after the USA invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 to remove al-Qaeda from there.
0 Replies
 
 

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