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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 05:46 am
http://static.crooksandliars.com/2006/09/rumsfeld%20saddam.jpg

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/hitler-chamberlain.jpg


Excerpted from Frank Rich's sunday column in the NY Times (reg required)...
Quote:
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 06:16 am
Chamberlain's reputation has been much maligned imo. His downfall was to wave a bit of paper about at Croydon aerodrome claiming "peace in our time". Here was an old man who had never flown before at the end of a series of exhausting visits to Hitler. Whether he actually believed Hitler's promises or not is another question. But there was no denying he felt he had achieved something which would do his own political reputation no harm.


Moreover Britain was in no position to go to war with Germany in 1938. The Munich conference bought a vital 12 months or so for Britain to re arm, particularly with new aircarft and it confirmed what a duplicitous bastard Hitler was, lest anyone was in any doubt.

When Britain finally declared war on Germany in Sept 1939, Hitler was stunned. He had not anticipated war with Britain and France until 1942 at the earliest, and now he found himself in a two front war, exactly what Germany foreign policy had been calculated to avoid.

[There is no analogy with Bush's war on terror, so its not worth a comment]
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 08:56 am
Quote:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 09:53 am
Gleaning from today's e-mail:

The Truth

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the
Palestinians, Lebanon, and other Arab neighbors the next two sentences really say it all:

* If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more
violence.

* If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 10:46 am
From the GSPG on how to deal with IT.
GSPG = George Soros Pseudology Gospel
IT = Islamo Totalitarians (e.g., Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists)

Quote:
Brought to you by the American Committees on Foreign Relations ACFR NewsGroup No. 764, Monday, September 4, 2006

[I'm not aware of where this originally appeared. I was sent it by a virulently pro-Palestinian organization. KMJ]

Consequences of the War on Terror
by George Soros

The failure of Israel to subdue Hezbollah demonstrates the many weaknesses of the war-on-terror concept. One of those weaknesses is that even if the targets are terrorists, the victims are often innocent civilians, and their suffering reinforces the terrorist cause.

In response to Hezbollah's attacks, Israel was justified in attacking Hezbollah to protect itself against the threat of missiles on its border. However, Israel should have taken greater care to minimize collateral damage. The civilian casualties and material damage inflicted on Lebanon inflamed Muslims and world opinion against Israel and converted Hezbollah from aggressors to heroes of resistance for many. Weakening Lebanon has also made it more difficult to rein in Hezbollah.

Another weakness of the war-on-terror concept is that it relies on military action and rules out political approaches. Israel previously withdrew from Lebanon and then from Gaza unilaterally, rather than negotiating political settlements with the Lebanese government and the Palestinian authority. The strengthening of Hezbollah and Hamas was a direct consequence of that approach. The war-on-terror concept stands in the way of recognizing this fact because it separates "us" from "them" and denies that our actions help shape their behavior.

A third weakness is that the war-on-terror concept lumps together different political movements that use terrorist tactics. It fails to distinguish between Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda or the Sunni insurrection and the Mahdi militia in Iraq. Yet all these terrorist manifestations, being different, require different responses. Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah can be treated merely as targets in the war on terror because they have deep roots in their societies; yet there are profound differences between them.

Looking back, it is easy to see where Israeli policy went wrong. When Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, Israel should have gone out of its way to strengthen him and his reformist team. When Israel withdrew from Gaza, the former head of the World Bank, James Wolfensohn, negotiated a six-point plan on behalf of the Quartet for the Middle East (Russia, the United States, the European Union and the United Nations). It included opening crossings between Gaza and the West Bank, an airport and seaport in Gaza, opening the border with Egypt, and transferring the greenhouses abandoned by Israeli settlers into Arab hands.

None of the six points was implemented. This contributed to Hamas's electoral victory. The Bush administration, having pushed Israel to allow the Palestinians to hold elections, then backed Israel's refusal to deal with a Hamas government. The effect was to impose further hardship on the Palestinians.

Nevertheless, Abbas was able to forge an agreement with the political arm of Hamas for the formation of a unity government. It was to foil this agreement that the military branch of Hamas, run from Damascus, engaged in the provocation that brought a heavy-handed response from Israel - which in turn incited Hezbollah to further provocation, opening a second front. That is how extremists play off against each other to destroy any chance of political progress.

Israel has been a participant in this game, and President Bush bought into this flawed policy, uncritically supporting Israel. Events have shown that this policy leads to the escalation of violence. The process has advanced to the point where Israel's unquestioned military superiority is no longer sufficient to overcome the negative consequences of its policy.

Israel is now more endangered in it existence that it was at the time of the Oslo Agreement on peace. Similarly, The United States has become less safe since President Bush declared war on terror.

The time has come to realize that the present policies are counterproductive. There will be no end to the vicious circle of escalating violence without a political settlement of the Palestine question. In fact, the prospects for engaging in negotiations are better now than they were a few months ago. The Israelis must realize that a military deterrent is not sufficient on its own. And Arabs, having redeemed themselves on the battlefield, may be more willing to entertain a compromise.

There are strong voices arguing that Israel must never negotiate from a position of weakness. They are wrong. Israel's position is liable to become weaker the longer it persists on its present course. Similarly Hezbollah, having tasted the sense but not the reality of victory (and egged on by Syria and Iran) may prove recalcitrant. But that is where the difference between Hezbollah and Hamas comes into play. The Palestinian people yearn for peace and relief from suffering. The political - as distinct from the military - wing of Hamas must be responsive to their desires. It is not too late for Israel to encourage and deal with an Abbas-led Palestinian unity government as the first step toward a better-balanced approach. Given how strong the U.S.-Israeli relationship is, it would help Israel achieve its own legitimate aims if the U.S. government were not blinded by the war-on-terror concept.

George Soros, a financier and philanthropist, is author of the new book "The Age of Fallibility: Consequences of the War on Terror."


Summary of the implications of GSPG:

1. Avoid defending ourselves against IT when IT is located in the midst of non-IT.

2. Do not attack IT unless it can be done with the surgical precision necessary to minimize the loss of lives of non-IT.

3. Negotiate unilateral withdrawals from our lands to ensure these lands are appreciated and properly utilized.

4. Negotiate with and support IT that declare their intention to exterminate us.

5. Negotiate with the IT from positions of weakness.

6. Negotiate our extermination in small incremental steps so as not to inflame IT anger against us.

7. Not all IT kill us for the same reasons.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 10:58 am
When Napoleon Won at Waterloo

by Uri Avnery
Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second Lebanon War.

You didn't know that? Well, during the last few days the Israeli media has paraded a long series of experts, who did not leave any room for doubt: the war has brought us huge achievements, Hezbollah was routed, Olmert is the great victor.

The TV talk-show hosts and anchormen put their microphones at the service of professors, publicity experts, "security personnel" and "strategists" (a title not denoting generals, but advisers of politicians). All of them agreed on the outcome: an honest-to-goodness victory.

Yesterday, I switched on the TV and saw a person radiating self-assurance and explaining how our victory in Lebanon opens the way for the inevitable war with Iran. The analysis, composed almost entirely of clichés, was worthy of a high-school pupil. I was shocked to learn that the man was a former chief of the Mossad. Anyway, we won this war, and we are going to win the next one.
http://www.antiwar.com/avnery/?articleid=9648
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 01:24 pm
Ican, the Soros letter looks to be a hoax. Your rules, based on the letter, are super.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 11:56 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Gleaning from today's e-mail:

The Truth

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the
Palestinians, Lebanon, and other Arab neighbors the next two sentences really say it all:

* If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more
violence.

* If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.


If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence, but there would still be the status quo in which Israel discriminates and oppresses the Palestinian people.

If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel, but this statement begs the question, why should a discriminatory and oppressive regime be allowed to exist in the first place?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 08:51 am
Israel is, by far, the least discriminatory and oppressive regime in the Middle East. I am sure that it ranks high for this in the world.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 08:54 am
InfraBlue wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Gleaning from today's e-mail:

The Truth

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the
Palestinians, Lebanon, and other Arab neighbors the next two sentences really say it all:

* If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more
violence.

* If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.


If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence, but there would still be the status quo in which Israel discriminates and oppresses the Palestinian people.

If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel, but this statement begs the question, why should a discriminatory and oppressive regime be allowed to exist in the first place?

You mean like Iraq under Saddam Hussein?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 11:43 am
Advocate wrote:
Israel is, by far, the least discriminatory and oppressive regime in the Middle East. I am sure that it ranks high for this in the world.


This assumption does not negate the fact that Israel is a discriminatory and oppressive state.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 11:46 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:

If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel, but this statement begs the question, why should a discriminatory and oppressive regime be allowed to exist in the first place?

You mean like Iraq under Saddam Hussein?


Exactly.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 12:10 pm
Some of the left wing., like those who are brain dead because of hypoxia( casued by insufficient blood to the brain due to closing of the heart's arteries), attempt to show that Rumsfeld's hand shake with Saddam in 1983 shows that the US policy with Middle Eastern Ruler is misguided.

That is supremely ridiculous.

Those who know how to count know that Rumsfeld's handshake came seven ( SEVEN) years before Desert Storm.

Those who have not forgotten their history because of brain blockages, know that during the humiliating failure by Jimmy Carter to save our citizens, held hostages by the madmen in Iran, in 1980. led to our support of Iraq against Iran.

Idiots, on the brink of mycardial infarctions, do not remember, since their brains are addled that our allies in World War II were the Soviets. FDR gave Eastern Europe to Joe Stalin at Yalta in return for Soviet support against the Japanese. The war ended in 1945-THE SAME YEAR THAT YALTA took place.

ONLY THREE YEARS LATER

ONLY THREE YEARS LATER

in 1948, the Soviets blockaded Berlin and the Cold War began in earnest.


I am strongly suggesting that any reference to Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam in 1983 be accompanied by a complete recital of FDR sitting next to Joe Stalin at Yalta.

It took seven years for the reversal of Iraqi intentions toward the USA-

1983-1990

It took only three years for the Soviets to stab us in the back in Berlin

1945-1948.

Left wingers who know nothing about Diplomacy and/or Realpolitik do not realize that:

l. The enemy of my enemy is my friend( FOR THE TIME BEING)

Addle brains who should be in nursing homes caring for their premature senile dementia caused by heart problems, either don't know this or have forgotten it!
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 01:34 pm
Quote:
l. The enemy of my enemy is my friend( FOR THE TIME BEING)


How about a friend of my enemy is my enemy?

Iraq's Shiite government is a friend of Iran. I guess that makes Iraq's government our enemy.

Quote:
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 02:08 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Israel is, by far, the least discriminatory and oppressive regime in the Middle East. I am sure that it ranks high for this in the world.


This assumption does not negate the fact that Israel is a discriminatory and oppressive state.


Your statement does not establish that your statement is a fact. However, your statement does add evidence supporting your adherence to GSPG (i.e., GSPG = George Soros Pseudology Gospel). Soros in his latest publications provides substantial evidence that GSPG is a gospel that "aids and comforts" IT (i.e., IT = Islamo Totalitarians (e.g., Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists).

Israel has been defending itself against oppressive states and cultures ever since it declared itself an independent state back in 1948. You remember the sequence:
1947 AD: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State.
1948 AD: Israel declares itself an independent state.
1948 AD: Civil war breaks out between Jews and Arabs.
1948 AD: State of Israel successfully defends itself and conquers part of the Arab Palestinian state.

It is true that Israel has never succeeded in demonstrating the absolute surgical precision required to achieve its defensive objective of not killing non-combatants, while killing offensive enemy combatants. On the other hand, IT have repeatedly succeeded in achieving their offensive objective of killing far more non-combatant Israelies than combatant Israelies.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 02:10 pm
BernardR wrote:
Some of the left wing., like those who are brain dead because of hypoxia( casued by insufficient blood to the brain due to closing of the heart's arteries), attempt to show that Rumsfeld's hand shake with Saddam in 1983 shows that the US policy with Middle Eastern Ruler is misguided.

That is supremely ridiculous.

Those who know how to count know that Rumsfeld's handshake came seven ( SEVEN) years before Desert Storm.

Those who have not forgotten their history because of brain blockages, know that during the humiliating failure by Jimmy Carter to save our citizens, held hostages by the madmen in Iran, in 1980. led to our support of Iraq against Iran.

Idiots, on the brink of mycardial infarctions, do not remember, since their brains are addled that our allies in World War II were the Soviets. FDR gave Eastern Europe to Joe Stalin at Yalta in return for Soviet support against the Japanese. The war ended in 1945-THE SAME YEAR THAT YALTA took place.

ONLY THREE YEARS LATER

ONLY THREE YEARS LATER

in 1948, the Soviets blockaded Berlin and the Cold War began in earnest.


I am strongly suggesting that any reference to Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam in 1983 be accompanied by a complete recital of FDR sitting next to Joe Stalin at Yalta.

It took seven years for the reversal of Iraqi intentions toward the USA-

1983-1990

It took only three years for the Soviets to stab us in the back in Berlin

1945-1948.

Left wingers who know nothing about Diplomacy and/or Realpolitik do not realize that:

l. The enemy of my enemy is my friend( FOR THE TIME BEING)

Addle brains who should be in nursing homes caring for their premature senile dementia caused by heart problems, either don't know this or have forgotten it!
thanks B you really are a gem
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 02:12 pm
You are welcome, Steve!!!
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 02:15 pm
Ican -Great post giving FACTS_ Your assertion that Advocate's statement is a non-entity since it gives no evidence is right on target but Advocate never gives any evidence- only his unsourced and unreference IGNORANCE. I do believe that he? she? actually WORKS HARD at avoiding evidence or documentation. In that regard, Advocate is a master!!!
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 02:33 pm
from ..MY ENEMY'S ENEMY IS MY FRIEND... and its results :
"By John Stuart Blackton | bio
The tradeoff of short term gain against the risk of unforeseen blowback is Bob Dreyfuss' big idea in the book: American reliance on the Kautilya principle (my enemy's enemy is my friend) in the Middle East has led us, not once but regularly, to choose to ally with (or at least deal with) Islamists of various stripes because they were the potential enemies both of International Communism and of Secular Pan-Arab nationalism. Dreyfuss suggests that we either did not foresee the potential for serious blowback, or we did understand, but sorely miscalculated the long term cost-benefit ratios.

Dreyfuss highlights our sometimes reckless application of the doctrine of trusting our enemy's enemies. And his examples from Eisenhower's White House meeting in 1953 with a scion of the Muslim Brotherhood (Said Ramadan) to our marriages of convenience with the Taliban and with Pakistan's notoriously Islamist military intelligence services record important moments in the history of American short-sightedness or miscalculation. "

(it seems to be a very successful policy - or perhaps not so successful Question Idea )
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Biography
Professor John Stuart Blackton is a retired Senior Foreign Service officer and a veteran of four years' Army service in Indochina.

After leaving the Foreign Service he joined the faculty of the National War College as professor of National Security Policy.

Professor Blackton currently works as an international consultant on security and governance issues, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan.

His clients include the United Nations, the World Bank, the European Union, the German Bundeswehr, and other international organizations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my enemy's enemy is my friend ?
better think about that a bit , doesn't always work out to the advantage
of the strategist proposing such an idea .
fingers - and other parts - often burned badly following such
strategy .
hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2006 02:34 pm
from ..MY ENEMY'S ENEMY IS MY FRIEND... and its results :
"By John Stuart Blackton | bio
The tradeoff of short term gain against the risk of unforeseen blowback is Bob Dreyfuss' big idea in the book: American reliance on the Kautilya principle (my enemy's enemy is my friend) in the Middle East has led us, not once but regularly, to choose to ally with (or at least deal with) Islamists of various stripes because they were the potential enemies both of International Communism and of Secular Pan-Arab nationalism. Dreyfuss suggests that we either did not foresee the potential for serious blowback, or we did understand, but sorely miscalculated the long term cost-benefit ratios.

Dreyfuss highlights our sometimes reckless application of the doctrine of trusting our enemy's enemies. And his examples from Eisenhower's White House meeting in 1953 with a scion of the Muslim Brotherhood (Said Ramadan) to our marriages of convenience with the Taliban and with Pakistan's notoriously Islamist military intelligence services record important moments in the history of American short-sightedness or miscalculation. "

(it seems to be a very successful policy - or perhaps not so successful Question Idea )
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Biography
Professor John Stuart Blackton is a retired Senior Foreign Service officer and a veteran of four years' Army service in Indochina.

After leaving the Foreign Service he joined the faculty of the National War College as professor of National Security Policy.

Professor Blackton currently works as an international consultant on security and governance issues, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan.

His clients include the United Nations, the World Bank, the European Union, the German Bundeswehr, and other international organizations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my enemy's enemy is my friend ?
better think about that a bit , doesn't always work out to the advantage
of the strategist proposing such an idea .
fingers - and other parts - often burned badly following such
strategy .
hbg

an afterthought :
does this fall into the same category as "short-term gain for long-term pain" Question
0 Replies
 
 

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